Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?

freebird:

well, all I see is a battle of feelings. Poles say this and BB says that. I tried to be neutral and said what I believed should suit both sides and that is "if you can I can". You can't deny Germans the right to love their country. I understand you defend your land and people but this is what everyone else does too, anywhere you go in the entire World. WWII was a very tough time for millions of people and not only in Europe. Everyone had to sacrifice something and now it's time for forgiveness but if you still want to digg in this historical crap you have to be aware of consequences and that means if you scream for more, someone else will do it too with the same right as you.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 01:33 / #
Ironside: Anyways rights of Poland to those land is much stronger then rights of Ukraine to territories lost to Soviet Union . why? and what about Lithuania?

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 9, 09, 01:49 / #
freebird: why look #159 tata

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 02:08 / #
Ironside: Ironside Today, 01:49 well, all I see is a battle of feelings. Poles say this and BB says that. I tried to be neutral and said what I believed should suit both sides and that is "if you can I can". You can't deny Germans the right to love their country. I understand you defend your land and people but this is what everyone else does too, anywhere you go in the entire World. WWII was a very tough time for millions of people and not only in Europe. Everyone had to sacrifice something and now it's time for forgiveness but if you still want to digg in this historical crap you have to be aware of consequences and that means if you scream for more, someone else will do it too with the same right as you.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 02:55 / #
freebird: well, all I see is a battle of feelings. Poles say this and BB says that. I tried to be neutral and said what I believed should suit both sides and that is "if you can I can". You can't deny Germans the right to love their country. I understand you defend your land and people but this is what everyone else does too, anywhere you go in the entire World. WWII was a very tough time for millions of people and not only in Europe. Everyone had to sacrifice something and now it's time for forgiveness but if you still want to digg in this historical crap you have to be aware of consequences and that means if you scream for more, someone else will do it too with the same right as you. Good point, Freebird.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 03:01 / #
Nathan: Good point, Freebird. thank you Nathan

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jun 9, 09, 10:32 / #
Salomon: What is more it is interesting that Sjam legitiamtes one Polish puppet comunist goverment actions and claims to be illigal others... Actually I don't—one can't argue with the facts. The immediate post-war Polish government was a Stalinist puppet government. The legitimate Polish government was "exiled' and in London. Period. This changed when the Stalinist government was recognised by the rest of the world community. But the Polish government-in-exile remained in London until the fall of communism. You have argued that Poland did not receive any compensation or reparations from Germany for wartime losses; the facts are that Poland's share was to come from Soviets as agreed at Potsdam. This is fact. It is also a fact that the Polish and German governments agreed in 2004 that they had no further claims for reparations against each other. These are the facts which you seem unable to grasp. However if you think the Soviet Union defrauded Poland of its share of German reparations then you (you personally or Poland as a nation) need to take this up with the Soviet Union. If you believe that during the post-war period the Soviet Union plundered Poland and its resources (as I do —the facts are in the article I linked to for you) then this is an issue that Poland needs to address with the Soviet Union not Germany. So yet again, you need to ask the Kremlin what it did with Poland's due compensation I have given you the contact details to make it easy for you :-)) And yet again I ask you why isn't the Polish government demanding compensation from Soviet Union for losses and extortion suffered at the hands of the Soviets during WWII and the post-war periods? You seem to have a strong view on this issue so what are you personally doing about righting this wrong? Are you out there campaigning? Contacting the press to get involved? Lambasting your MPs? What? SFA?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 9, 09, 11:17 / #
No sjam it is the Germans who payed money for wrong country. I am debating now about German compensations. Money should have been paid staright to Poland. It was compensation for Poland not for Soviet Union. It is good that thay haven't payed it for North Korea. LOL Issue with Russia and other countries is much different subject.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 9, 09, 12:48 / #
Ironside: in my view, and view of the USA, SU and UK - those lands were such compensation! Yeah...they did shove borders around as they saw fit also after WWI greatly contributing to destabilizing Europe and laying the seeds for WWII, and we pay even still today the consequences from their border-reshuffling in the ME...what generous people, weren't they! How many millions died till now for their border shuffling in Europe and elsewhere? They should be hung! Ironside: and Germans should be keep under close watch - their are maniacs )))))) Salomon: I am debating now about German compensations. Maybe you should start a club together with Crowie...you two are already the laughingstock!

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 816 Joined: Jul 27, 08	Jun 9, 09, 12:50 / #
I'm confused. "Salomon" was King David's son. "Nathan" was David's prophet. Am I listening to a discussion between two Jews here?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 9, 09, 12:54 / #
Lukasz discovered his jewish roots just recently..hence the new name of Salomon (and that he got thrown from the board before)...

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 16:20 / #
Ironside: As for Ukraine there was no such a state before 1990 - never! I want to let you know that Ukraine regained its independance on August 24, 1991. Hope this year you will celebrate this day the way it is supposed to. I fully agree with some guys about your laughingstockability syndrome. You don't even know the basics of history and claim that country never existed. It's pathetic. Grow up, kid. Westerns territories of Ukraine were occupied by Poland and now Ukraine rightfully possesses its old territories. Let's not talk about Peremyszel', which remained in Poland even though it belonged to Kijivska Rus'. Keep it. You are scared of Germans. It looks like as soon as something happens on your western border you will run in fear to the eastern to claim something in Ukraine. You will be met. As I've already told once, don't be afraid to bring horses, Ukraine won't use its new T-84 Oplot-M tanks the way your western neighbors did in WW1. ;) Ironside: If Poland were treated rightly as one of the main victors of the WWII we would have keep our prewar border in the east and had some addition in the north and west - not so radical as present border! You claim that Poland was a main victor and should have taken territories of Ukraine for that? What about Ukrainians, haven't they fought and died for their land? Ukrainians lost 1.4 million soldiers, while Poland - 240,000 soldiers. As a country we lost 7.5 millions people! So should Ukraine claim some of the Poland or Germany now? Have some respect to the fallen, victims of this fcuking war. Brainwashed like you start all the wars because they want more and more. Live your life or groom your horses. We are ready.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 16:32 / #
freebird: and you're not even counting those 7 mln. Ukrainians who were ordered to hunger to death back in 1933 by the Soviets. No, I didn't mention the deaths of murdered by hunger people where the last piece of bread was taken away. Let they rest in peace and we will never forget them.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 16:56 / #
aphrodisiac: aphrodisiac yes aphrodisiac is probably looking in the mirror and keeps saying to himself "I'm smart and look at those two, they're stupid" hahaha I'm glad I made your day :-)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 17:01 / #
Ironside: or tell me when there was an independent state called Ukrainian Duchy, Kingdom, Republic or other and was independent longer then one year. And if you show me that such state had present territories - I'll agree with everything you say - otherwise you should stop talk rubbish It had a different name and it was called Kijevs'ka Rus' lX - Xlll centuries, then it was Hetmanate Ukraine XVl-XVll centuries, then it was Ukrainian People's Republic in 1918-1920, then it was Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic - 1922-1991. Now it is Ukraine. We have a long history, brother. Nathan: Live your life or groom your horses.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 9, 09, 13:28 / #
Salomon: No sjam it is the Germans who payed money for wrong country. They paid money for the correct country. That the money was apparently stolen by the Soviet Union is not the fault of Germany. When you whine about this theft here and to German, all you do is tell us all that you know there is no way you will ever get any cash from Russia (either for WWII or the communist era crimes) and so you want Germany to pay out a second time. Bratwurst Boy: Maybe you should start a club together with Crowie...you two are already the laughingstock! Precisely.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Jun 9, 09, 14:16 / #
Harry: They paid money for the correct country. Why Soviet Union was Correct country ? Not Poland... using your logic they should pay compensatons for Vatican as long as majority of Poles are Catholic ... but why Soviets ?

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 9, 09, 14:19 / #
Salomon: Why Soviet Union was Correct country ? The Germans paid compensation for Poland ($1.5 billion). The money was paid to the Soviet Union (as Poland had asked it to be). You seem unable to understand this very very simple fact.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jun 9, 09, 14:31 / #
freebird: why? and what about Lithuania? Because Germany lost the war. Poland was from the beginning on the side which won! And you compare situation of Poland and Germany??????/ As for Ukraine there was no such a state before 1990 - never! As for western part of Ukraine those territories belonged before a war to Poland and during the war great part of the locals which have seen themselves as a Ukrainians sided with Hitler and were doing ethnic cleanings or whatever is called now when on the given territory people are being murder only for being Polish( or other) . These lands Poland lost to Soviet Union, while German lands were given to Poland. Also in the middle ages most of the lands we are discussing were either part of Kingdom of Poland, were dependent vassals or had a rules of polish origins. There were close ties till about 1530 with raise of Protestants, when local population (like BB ancestors more likely) began to absorb "German" culture! Contrary to situation in western "Ukraine" were since 1360 were part of Polish Crown and nobody till 1848 ever heard about Ukrainians, before they were considered local peasant and anybody who had any education were thinking himself as a Pole. It was like if highlanders started to believe they are not Polish but Highlandish! Well, If they identify as Ukrainians - go ahead but don't forget about settle issue with Poles, they cannot simply talk about occupation, exploitation and ancient rights of Ukrainians because it is not truth!!!! As for Germans I have not doubt they are conceiving plans to get back they lands when the opportunity arise! And if Poland wont do it the same, we can end with prewar western border and postwar eastern border. Anyway I see those drowning parallel between wester and estern Polish border - there none! We were given German land just because it suited Stalin, same with eastern border! If Poland were treated rightly as one of the main victors of the WWII we would have keep our prewar border in the east and had some addition in the north and west - not so radical as present border! As for Lithuania we have no claim as such (means rights) but there were always majority of local population being Polish and if Lithuanian government will carry on its discriminations - there is always option ! Bratwurst Boy: Yeah...they did shove borders around as they saw fit also after WWI greatly contributing to destabilizing Europe and laying the seeds for WWII, and we pay even still today the consequences from their border-reshuffling in the ME...what generous people, weren't they! sure tell it to Frederic the Great and also tell him not to take part in the partition of Poland- its all stared there, so stop blaming versatilities because in the east you have got a good deal! If you talk about fair - contribution which France paid to youz in 1871 - pretty fair ????whiner!!)0))000 Nathan Killing = killing - not true! important are circumstances! You know it! And if you don't you should know! to be forgiven you have to first admit your guilt.>

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Jun 9, 09, 14:37 / #
Harry: (as Poland had asked it to be Where ? In Katyń forest ?

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 9, 09, 15:06 / #
Salomon: Where ? In Katyń forest ? Potsdam actually. I note that you no longer dispute that German did pay compensation for Poland.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 9, 09, 15:16 / #
Salomon: It was compensation for Poland not for Soviet Union I hate to tell you that but before 1989 everyone if ever then talked to Soviet Union and not to any of the satelite countries. Poland wasn't a free country. Ironside: Because Germany lost the war. Oh, now I understand your point, so when some country loses a war it also loses the right to be treated fair, right? If so then why do you claim your ex territories in Lithuania and Ukraine. Poland also kind of lost the WWII losing a big chunk of land to the Soviet Union so I guess your claims are invalid. Ironside: Poland was from the beginning on the side which won! hate to tell you but only in your history books written by the Soviets or pro Soviets at least. Soviets were the winners but not Poland and that's why they took whatever they wanted and there was nothing you guys could do about it. Also the compensations paid by the Germans went to the Soviets because they were the only, let's call it "free" country in the entire eastern block.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 9, 09, 15:27 / #
Ironside: Because Germany lost the war. Poland was from the beginning on the side which won! Poland a winner! Sure...:):):) Ironside: sure tell it to Frederic the Great and also tell him not to take part in the partition of Poland- its all stared there, Well...how many millions were killed because and during the partitions? Wanna compare that and the later border shuffles by your friends the Brits??? Even today there are wars and tensions all over the world because of their border shuffling regardless of religious and ethnical facts...they should be hung! Ironside: As for Germans I have not doubt they are conceiving plans to get back they lands when the opportunity arise! Manno...look around you....no borders anymore....if there had been any plans for German domination and the possibility to settle where we want they came already true! If you really think we are going to risk that you are so wrong. Germany would nothing gain from any kerfuffle again...as it is right now it's good for us! :) Ironside: so stop blaming versatilities I blame Versailles, not versatilities! :)

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 16:27 / #
Nathan: As a country we lost 7.5 millions people! and you're not even counting those 7 mln. Ukrainians who were ordered to hunger to death back in 1933 by the Soviets.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 9, 09, 16:34 / #
Nathan: Westerns territories of Ukraine were occupied by its native citizens ... :)

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jun 9, 09, 16:34 / #
freebird: Oh, now I understand your point, so when some country loses a war it also loses the right to be treated fair, right? If so then why do you claim your ex territories in Lithuania and Ukraine. Poland also kind of lost the WWII losing a big chunk of land to the Soviet Union so I guess your claims are invalid. Well, seem to me that you generally don't understand much do you? Germany formally surrounded - unconditionally according to international law means that loser is on the mercy of the winner and when Allied power assumed the rights of German government they could do anything and is legal in the eyes of the international law. So, German "rights" are groundless if we are talking about law. On the other hand Polish government never surrendered, only one day its "allies" stopped to recognize Legal Polish Government - bastards! Bratwurst Boy: Germany would nothing gain from any kerfuffle again...as it is right now it's good for us! :) exactly my point!0 Bratwurst Boy: Even today there are wars and tensions all over the world because of their border shuffling regardless of religious and ethnical facts...they should be hung! you should start new thread !)))) freebird: hate to tell you but only in your history books written by the Soviets or pro Soviets at least. Soviets were the winners but not Poland and that's why they took whatever they wanted and there was nothing you guys could do about it. Well, their were your friends as you were hand in hand were building New World Order in which Soviets and American were dividing the World at the expense of British Empire and Poland! Bratwurst Boy: Poland a winner! Sure...:):):) Did I said it? Bratwurst Boy: I blame Versailles, not versatilities! :) You may as well blame versatilities for it was not main reason for war! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwsmzHxMktA and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoclI1wGjss

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 16:41 / #
Ironside: unconditionally according to international law means that loser is on the mercy of the winner no you don't understand much at all Ironside. You lost the war and the Soviets won it and yes, you were on the mercy of the winner. They gave Poland what they felt like giving, that's it. They took the cash from the Germans and took a big chunk of your land and gave you what didn't belong to them anyway. If the WWII wouldn't be such a huge tragedy, we would have more than just one reason to lough about it.

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 9, 09, 16:47 / #
Ironside: Well, seem to me that you generally don't understand much do you? freebird: no you don't understand much at all Ironside

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 9, 09, 16:49 / #
Ironside: Well, their were your friends Soviets were never our friends but everyone was fed up with that damn war and we had to put an end to it even on cost of some agreements we shouldn't have done.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 16:50 / #
aphrodisiac: Ironside: Well, seem to me that you generally don't understand much do you? freebird: no you don't understand much at all Ironside ;)

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jun 9, 09, 16:54 / #
Nathan: I want to let you know that Ukraine regained its independance on August 24, 1991. Hope this year you will celebrate this day the way it is supposed to. Now, Nathan stop that sulking nonsense! or tell me when there was an independent state called Ukrainian Duchy, Kingdom, Republic or other and was independent longer then one year. And if you show me that such state had present territories - I'll agree with everything you say - otherwise you should stop talk rubbish !