Poland: dont blame us its the Germans.

Masked neo-Nazi thugs screamed 'Heil Hitler!' and 'This way for the gas!' at ten elderly Italian men and women, who returned to the site of the Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria.

The gang also fired air guns at a group of 15 French survivors, many dressed in the striped pyjama-style uniforms they wore as inmates. One suffered a head wound while another was injured by a shot in the neck. The four thugs managed to escape.

But the same spirit that kept them alive back then was still evident among the survivors who fought with the cowards who desecrated the memory of their dead comrades.

They even succeeded in ripping the mask from one of them and taking his picture with a mobile telephone camera.

Wroclaw Boy	May 17, 09, 15:08 / #
jwojcie: I've noticed (on internet forums) that expats living in Poland tends to acquire Polish "complaint syndrom" in time, especially during autumn and winter times... Thats affirmative.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	May 17, 09, 22:33 / #
Oh pleeeeeaaaaase....blame if it makes you feel better! BLAME for fuck sake...it won't change one yota but who cares.... takes helmet*

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 17, 09, 22:39 / #
I agree, BB. Here we are, with 52 years of Europeanisation designed to build cordial ties and people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :( We won the war, relax guys :)

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam May 18, 09, 08:01 / #
Bratwurst Boy: it won't change one yota but who cares.... .... These people obvioulsy do. Neo-Nazis screaming 'Heil Hitler' attack concentration camp survivors during memorial service for 345,000 dead 12th May 2009 Masked neo-Nazi thugs screamed 'Heil Hitler!' and 'This way for the gas!' at ten elderly Italian men and women, who returned to the site of the Mauthausen concentration camp in Austria. The gang also fired air guns at a group of 15 French survivors, many dressed in the striped pyjama-style uniforms they wore as inmates. One suffered a head wound while another was injured by a shot in the neck. The four thugs managed to escape. But the same spirit that kept them alive back then was still evident among the survivors who fought with the cowards who desecrated the memory of their dead comrades. They even succeeded in ripping the mask from one of them and taking his picture with a mobile telephone camera. Seanus: people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :( Maybe if you were a victim/survivor it wouldn't seem so pointless.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 18, 09, 09:48 / #
sjam: Neo-Nazis screaming 'Heil Hitler' attack concentration camp survivors during memorial service for 345,000 dead 12th May 2009 Blame the Austrians.... ...or the Poles:

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 18, 09, 10:53 / #
Yes, sjam, my point is crystal clear. The war ended 64 years ago, kapisz? That's over 6 decades. It took only 8 years after the war to form the ECSC. If I were a victim, I'd know it was due to a madman being allowed to rise to power and so-called experts not reading the warning signs. Chamberlain, the romantic, being first among them.

Wroclaw Boy	May 18, 09, 10:55 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Blame the Austrians.... Austrians, havent heard that one before.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 18, 09, 11:06 / #
Well, they spawned Hitler :( Oh, and that Fritz guy.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	May 18, 09, 13:20 / #
Seanus: The war ended 64 years ago, kapisz? In the context of Poland this depends which history books you are looking at—you could take a look at: Atlas polskiego podziemia niepodległościowego 1944-1956 : Dr. Rafał Wnuk, Wydawca: IPN, Rok wydania: 2007

isthatu2Threads: 12 Posts: 4,856 Joined: Apr 3, 08	May 18, 09, 13:20 / #
and the Von Trapps!! The biggest crime against humanity of the century.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus May 18, 09, 22:37 / #
I agree that the Polish beefs are legitimate and the wounds are still felt. Still, Poland has modernised itself and you have to go with the times. Everything is politicised and that's what gets me. It is written in Auschwitz that we should learn and never repeat the mistakes, as you advocated. Of course I'm with you on that but the Balkans was one big mess, as was Rwanda. What compounded matters was that major institutions were behind it. The very people that should've prevented it. I was just making the point that people pointlessly blame. Many of those Nazis are dead and gone. A missed opportunity to indict them.

jeepThreads: - Posts: 32 Joined: May 10, 09	May 19, 09, 10:02 / #
Your mistake is to blame one race when many races were involved. The Nazi creed, the most vile plague that ever crawled this earth, established it's evil largely through racial hatred. Nazis were the so-called Master "Race". But it was only a matter of signing on the dotted line to become a member of the "Master Race". third class. Race became a matter of party membership. Nazis saw some races as a threat to the purity of the "Master Race". They, Jews, needed exterminating, along with mentally ill, gypsies, etc. Other races just needed their non-Nazi leaders exterminating. The rest would be useful workers, incapable of original thought. Nazi considered Poles fitted that category. Big mistake. The Nazis were happy to work "inferior" races to death as slave labour. Polish Nazis were happy to work Polish slaves to death. French Nazis were happy to work French slaves to death. The creed is to blame not a race. It's pointless blaming modern Germans for Nazi evils. They are victims of Evil Adolph's crazy creed. Modern Germans are not responsible in any way for the racial hatred that engulfed Europe after WW1. Blaming Germans and Nazi-ism have much in common. They are bloated with evil, and awash with racial hatred. Blaming Germans for the Nazis is an Evil Creed. Just as evil as Naziism. And and spawned by the Evil genius. Move on. Attack Racial Hatred. Attack Naziism. There's probably less racial hatred in Germany today than in most other countries in Europe.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07	May 19, 09, 10:56 / #
jeep: There's probably less racial hatred in Germany today than in most other countries in Europe. Statistically speaking, a non-white person is far less likely to be the victim of racist crime in Germany than they are in Poland.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	May 19, 09, 10:59 / #
Harry: Statistically speaking, a non-white person is far less likely to be the victim of racist crime in Germany than they are in Poland. Prove it.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	May 18, 09, 13:33 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Austrians, havent heard that one before. Well....read the link...

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	May 18, 09, 21:01 / #
Seanus: people are still pointlessly, um, pointing back to WWII :( We won the war, relax guys :) Not "pointlessly"; people rarely seem to learn from history - and they should. As to winning the war, well, that's not true for Poland now is it? The people had to live under tyrannical communism while the allies celebrated. The Polish 'beefs' are legitimate and still too close (timewise) to so many.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie May 19, 09, 11:47 / #
Seanus: No concept of vendetta in Polish culture?? I think some know the meaning of 'odwet' i 'zemsta' here, let's not kid ourselves. Hm... I suppose it was ironic on your side :-) These are even two different words in Polish: 'wendeta' and 'zemsta'.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 19, 09, 12:30 / #
Yeah, I'm not saying it's prevalent by any means, it's not Sicily we are talking about here. It's human nature for the most part :)

Foreigner4Threads: 21 Posts: 1,747 Joined: Nov 18, 07	May 19, 09, 12:49 / #
Hooray! Let's play the "Time Machine Blame Game" Here's the rules, set up your time machine in your head. Pretend to go back in time. Play out scenarios as you imagine them. Pretend the picture of the place and time you go back to is completely factually accurate. Assume all things today stem from your pretend factually accurate imaginings. Place blame accordingly. It's fun, easy to do, you're always right and anyone who thinks differently than you is always wrong. My turn to play: If we could go back to any place and any time the world i'd be willing to bet people did worse things than the nazi war machine did. And, just like those events it will at some point stop being fashionable to blame them or pretend they did anything that any other group of people wouldn't have done given the circumstances. Likely that will happen when the next overt attempt at a large scale military takeover. That is all.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07	May 19, 09, 13:25 / #
Salomon: Prove it. No problem. In Germany there are the 2,080,000+ non-whites I have already mentioned and another 840,000 Germans of Turkish descent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germany). That makes at least 2,920,000 non-whites. In 2005 (the last year for which data is available for both nations) there were 15,192 “politically motivated – right wing crimes” (a definition which includes things like giving the Heil Hitler salute or having a copy of Mein Kampf). That makes a total of one crime per 192 non-whites. In other words a non-white in Germany has a one in 192 chance of being the victim of racist crime. In Poland we have 24,809 non-whites (if we make the over-estimation that all of the Other, English, French etc are non-white). In 2005 there were 172 ‘racist’ crimes reported under different legal articles. That makes one racist crime for every 144 non-whites. In other words a non-white in Poland has a one in 144 chance of being the victim of racist crime. The links to the sources used are in this post: http://www.polishforums.com/racist_text_book_polish_schools-34_34322_1 .html#msg670976

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 19, 09, 16:56 / #
Harry: In Poland we have 24,809 non-whites First of all ... Lets take Vietnamise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overseas_Vietnamese Probably more than 50,000 Vietnamese live in Poland, mostly in big cities.[citation needed] They publish a number of newspapers, both pro- and anti-Communist. Only some of them belong to three organizations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_populations Poland 15,000 to 50,000 ... I could contiune ... but I don't have the time

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07	Edited by: Harry May 19, 09, 17:20 / #
Salomon: First of all ... Lets take Vietnamise: Which to believe: official figures from the Polish government (i.e. 1,808) or unsourced numbers ("probably more than 50,000") from a website which anybody can edit? I wonder which might be more accurate. Salomon: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_populations Again, do we believe Wikipedia or the Polish government? Well, the figure from the Polish government is more up to date than the source quoted in wikipedia (2002 census vs "the early 90s"). But let's say that we do take the wikipedia source http://countrystudies.us/poland/32.htm as being accurate (unlikely, given that the author doesn't even know the correct name "Roma), it says " Estimates of the Gypsy population in Poland range from 15,000 to 50,000." Which means that the estimate given there could have been correct as of 1992 and by 2002 the Roma population had fallen to 12,900. But if your blessed source is 100% accurate, how do you explain the bit which says "Nevertheless, negative stereotypes remain strong in Polish society, and acts of violence and discrimination against this most visible minority are common in Poland. In 1991 a mob destroyed a wealthy Gypsy neighborhood in central Poland."? Salomon: ... I could contiune ... but I don't have the time You mean you could continue to provide rubbish sources of inaccurate figures? Please do that.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 19, 09, 17:23 / #
Harry: Which to believe: official figures from the Polish government (i.e. 1,808) or unsourced numbers ("probably more than 50,000") from a website which anybody can edit? I wonder which might be more accurate. You are liar ... because in source you used before ... sometimes you cn find statments that there is propably 500 000 of people with such origin but only 5000 claimed to be non Polish citizen of Poland. ... You manipulate ...

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,995 Joined: May 2, 07	May 19, 09, 17:28 / #
Salomon: You are liar ... because in source you used before ... sometimes you cn find statments that there is propably 500 000 of people with such origin but only 5000 claimed to be non Polish citizen of Poland. ... You manipulate ... I'm quoting figures from the Polish government. Feel free to phone them and tell them they're full of sh*t. Do please point out the part of the 2002 Polish census which states "that there is propably 500 000 of people with such origin". Either that or just admit you're lying yet again.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius May 19, 09, 18:25 / #
Harry: I'm quoting figures from the Polish government. Feel free to phone them and tell them they're full of sh*t. 1. German stats you quote wikipedia but you consider the same source not good for Polish stats? Interesting. 2. You use 2002 numbers of minorities and compare them with 2005 incidents? Was there the same rate of increase of minorities in Poland and Germany in the 3 year period? There must have been some influx of minorities in both countries during that period. Without those precise numbers the data is iffy and only somewhat reliable. Add the margin of error and we loose the clarity altogether. Your method shows a clear tendency to show what you want to show. This may me a reflection of reality but the proof is weak at best. 3. Harry: In other words a non-white in Germany has a one in 192 chance of being the victim of racist crime. Harry: That makes one racist crime for every 144 non-whites. Two potential problems with these numbers: - was the number of minorities in Germany subtracted from the general population stats in Germany? When you decrease the number of Germans by some 3 Mil (the number of minorities) then the stats will be different. After all the number of potential "criminals" will increase for Germany. And then, the numbers show that a German is more likely to commit a racially motivated crime than a Pole. Using your numbers: 1 of out 5,397 Germans committed a racially motivated crime 1 out of 263,888 Poles committed a racially motivated crime In other words a German is 48 times more likely to commit a racially motivated crime than a Pole. The numbers clearly show that Poles are way ahead of Germans in racial tolerance.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 19, 09, 18:27 / #
z_darius: The numbers clearly show that Poles are way ahead of Germans in racial tolerance. We will just send our 3 mill turks over and then we will see how the numbers change...:)

thebear45Threads: 2 Posts: 95 Joined: Apr 22, 09	May 19, 09, 18:48 / #
Harry: Harry Zionist?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	May 19, 09, 18:52 / #
Bratwurst Boy: We will just send our 3 mill turks over and then we will see how the numbers change...:) Further to that; given that Poles have a very short experience with ethnic minorities on the scale comparable to that in Germany, I'd say Poles are doing great compared to the wonderful tolerance withing the borders of their western neighbor. Poles have had little time to learn to accept "the others" while Germans have had the chance to embrace the wonderful benefits of the multicultural society for some 60 years.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	May 19, 09, 18:54 / #
z_darius: Poles have had little time to learn to accept "the others" while Germans have had the chance to embrace the wonderful benefits of the multicultural society for some 60 years. Wha?

irishdeanoThreads: 11 Posts: 480 Joined: Oct 23, 07	May 19, 09, 19:06 / #
I can see why they still have blame on germany. It happened not that long ago really an many people have lived though it who are still alive today To tell of what happened to there parents,to them an so on. They had alot of trouble from the era of Hitler an stalian it was less than 70 years ago