Poland: dont blame us its the Germans.

Bratwurst Boy:

The help, the support is the bone of contention.
The EU (and to a big part Germany) is now doing to Poland what the US had done to their zone of occupation to get them on their feet.
But somehow the Poles are not happy about it...:(
Many are still grumbling and mumbling and resenting and whatnot..no fair!

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 [Suspended]	May 26, 09, 18:02 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Ja? Exactly my point. Thank you.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	May 26, 09, 18:04 / #
Bzibzioh: Exactly my point. Thank you. Glad to help! :) Erm...what did I say???

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 [Suspended]	May 26, 09, 18:57 / #
You are not disputing that Germany's after war recovery is in big part due to American help. So comparing economical status of Germany with Poland is not fair.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 26, 09, 19:12 / #
Bzibzioh: You are not disputing that Germany's after war recovery is in big part due to American help. So comparing economical status of Germany with Poland is not fair. The help, the support is the bone of contention. The EU (and to a big part Germany) is now doing to Poland what the US had done to their zone of occupation to get them on their feet. But somehow the Poles are not happy about it...:( Many are still grumbling and mumbling and resenting and whatnot..no fair!

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 [Suspended]	May 26, 09, 21:11 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Many are still grumbling and mumbling and resenting and whatnot..no fair! Could you really blame Poles for being suspicious and resentful? Polish-German relationship was hardly model one in the best of times.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 26, 09, 21:15 / #
Well, correct me if I'm wrong but Poland joined the EU in May 2004 when Germany was a powerhouse (still is). The EU stresses partnership and not resentment.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	May 26, 09, 21:26 / #
shopgirl: There can't be that many "descendants of murderers" because there wasn't hardly any men left in Germany after WWII! "Hardly" isn't the most fortunate word here. German population before WW2 - 69,623,000 German population after WW2 - 62,390,000 The ratio of males to females in Germany is roughly 50/50 so there were about 31 million male Germans left after WW2 - more than all of Poland, including women, in 1945

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	May 26, 09, 23:33 / #
shopgirl: There can't be that many "descendants of murderers" because there wasn't hardly any men left in Germany after WWII! The murdererers had also mothers you know.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 [Suspended]	May 27, 09, 00:27 / #
Seanus: The EU stresses partnership and not resentment. How lovely of EU. Idealism is a beautiful thing. Seanus: Exactly, a little reading of history is in order here. Pray, what would you recommend me to read?

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07	Edited by: shopgirl May 27, 09, 05:45 / #
z_darius: Hardly" isn't the most fortunate word here.German population before WW2 - 69,623,000German population after WW2 - 62,390,000 I don't buy it. Your figures do not break down by gender or age. I have read repeatedly that the population left over in Germany after the war was disportionate in women, children and old men in relation to men. By May 7, 1945 at least 1.8 million German CIVILIANS had perished, 7.5 million were homeless. As many as 16.5 million were about to be driven from their homes. Of these 2.25 million would die during the expulsions from the south and east. -Giles Macdonough Sokrates: descendants of murderers Germany had quite a few descendant of ALLIES. Think about that the next time all of you go blotto on younger generations of Germans! In the decade after World War II, more than 100,000 babies were born to unwed German mothers and Allied soldier fathers. Most of the men left Europe without ever meeting their children. Now, many "occupation babies" are scrambling to find their fathers before it's too late. Children of the Enemy

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 27, 09, 13:47 / #
Matyjasz: Germany also doesn't seem to be thankful for the help America granted it after WWII with all it's anti-american sentiments, treating USA as a greater danger for Europe than Russia. Most Germans are! Only because the anti-american-lefties and their media are the loudest doesn't mean they are the majority! (okay...the Bush years were tough but most of us can differ between people and governments) Especially in Berlin, things like the Luftbrücke or the american support for the re-unification are not forgotten) As Obama came to speak on the Siegessäule most Berliners came to show their respect for the US and the wish for good and close relationships with them not especially for Obama... Bush and his gov were very much disliked generally, that's true! Matyjasz: treating USA as a greater danger for Europe than Russia. Political differences, nothing more, nothing less.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 27, 09, 14:39 / #
Leave Shopski alone! Sokrates was overdoing it again, calling all Germans "descendants of murderers"...no need to compare wiki numbers! :) The Wiesenthal center gives a number of 200.000 german war criminals. Even if all had kids that is just a tiny number between 80 Mill Germans...

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 27, 09, 14:57 / #
Hitler stated his plans in his book ... Mein Kampf : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf Which was best seller in Germany ... I'd say that before the war most Germans knew his plans ... It is not possible to call him crazy guy who after taking power made such horrible things ... he made what he promissed for Germans in his book - murdered Jews - tried to conquer east, invaded France, tried to enslave Slavic nations... everything according to plan.

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	May 27, 09, 15:11 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Most Germans are! Only because the anti-american-lefties and their media are the loudest doesn't mean they are the majority! Of course, this is the impresion I got from your anti-american-leftie media, but also from Germans that I had the opportunity to meet in my life. BTW, it also includes those that I have met in virtual reality, like you for example. Either way, if Germans can criticize "Bush's America", despite all the aid USA provided to USA, why can't Poles do the same with Germany? Wouldn't that make those Gremans hypocrites? Ohh, and what is worth mentioning here, not everyone agrees with Kaczyński brothers, to their dissatisfaction of course.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	May 27, 09, 10:41 / #
Seanus: Well, correct me if I'm wrong but Poland joined the EU in May 2004 when Germany was a powerhouse (still is). The EU stresses partnership and not resentment. Yes but you can't expect certain of the 'Poles' who post here to understand Europe. For example z_dupek is proud to tell us that he was born in a country which is not part of the EU and there's also the small point that he has never lived in Poland or the EU. Same for Bzibzioh.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	May 27, 09, 13:15 / #
The 'plastic' Poles, you mean? Yeah, they know everything from a distance.

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	May 27, 09, 13:38 / #
Bratwurst Boy: The help, the support is the bone of contention. The EU (and to a big part Germany) is now doing to Poland what the US had done to their zone of occupation to get them on their feet. But somehow the Poles are not happy about it...:( Many are still grumbling and mumbling and resenting and whatnot..no fair! Germany also doesn't seem to be thankful for the help America granted it after WWII with all it's anti-american sentiments, treating USA as a greater danger for Europe than Russia.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	May 27, 09, 14:17 / #
shopgirl: I don't buy it. Your figures do not break down by gender or age. I have read repeatedly that the population left over in Germany after the war was disportionate in women, children and old men in relation to men. I am not selling anything. I am quoting numbers from wikipedia. But OK, lets say ALL Germans who died during WW2 were males. That still leaves us with about 26 million male Germans. Still more than entire populations of many countries. What was in short supply in Germany were males in production and reproductive age. But guess what, boys eventually grow up - even if some here do not exactly prove that. shopgirl: As many as 16.5 million were about to be driven from their homes. Of these 2.25 million would die during the expulsions from the south and east. -Giles Macdonough Most of those driven from their home were driven from their home after WW2 as per the agreements of the Allies. So when you say there were hardly any men left in Germany after WW2 is far from precise. Otherwise... hey BBoy do you still speak Turkish at home or have you picked up some German?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 27, 09, 15:32 / #
Matyjasz: Either way, if Germans can criticize "Bush's America", despite all the aid USA provided to USA, why can't Poles do the same with Germany? Because they don't! Because always reharking to WWII isn't fostering the idea of good relationships even when political ideas differ. Also Germans rarely try to manipulate or blackmail the Americans with historical stories like calling a business a "Molotov Ribbentrop pact". Or using imaginery populations they would had have without the war for getting more votes etc... Not to mention calling german politicians Nazi! And you know PF Maty :) The US became a friend instead of an occupier at the time of the Luftbrücke. But that doesn't mean that Germans have to agree with a policy deemed at heightening tensions with Russia for example.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	May 27, 09, 17:17 / #
Seanus: The 'plastic' Poles, you mean? Yeah, they know everything from a distance. We know everything anyway. We're the smartest people on earth dontcha know?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	May 27, 09, 17:44 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Sokrates was overdoing it again, calling all Germans "descendants of murderers"...no need to compare wiki numbers! :) That I agree with, but Shopski did not do a good job with numbers as you did. The 200K makes sense and it does defeat the argument about the alleged "descendants of murderers".

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,657 Joined: Oct 15, 08 [Suspended]	May 27, 09, 22:25 / #
Harry: Yes but you can't expect certain of the 'Poles' who post here to understand Europe ... so secular fundamentalist with no nationality like me have best qualifications to lecture them. lol

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,984 Joined: Nov 18, 07	May 28, 09, 08:04 / #
Salomon: Which was best seller in Germany ... I'd say that before the war most Germans knew his plans ... who do you think was behind most of those purchases?

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09	Edited by: scrappleton May 28, 09, 08:30 / #
Matyjasz: Germany also doesn't seem to be thankful for the help America granted it after WWII with all it's anti-american sentiments, treating USA as a greater danger for Europe than Russia. You're right of course and the US never should have given all that money to Germany. They sunk countless ships in at the mouth of Mississippi, torpedoed us around North Carolina. So we give them money? They're probably the most anti-american in Europe and the Germans will eventually, like always, wreak havoc on Europe. It's only a matter of time. 20 - 25 years maybe? Despite what many of you think the anti-americanism is watched closed in the US. Yes the US has started some of the smaller ridiculous wars but Germany starts the big ones. Stalin was utterly correct about them and they should have been treated without mercy. Did they treat anyone else with mercy? Now look how they preach and carry on. Suddenly the humanitarians.. What a joke.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	May 28, 09, 09:10 / #
The US always hands out money to countries that do nothing but b#### and moan about us in return. That's nothing new. We have been funding jihadists for years.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	May 28, 09, 09:46 / #
Salomon: Hitler stated his plans in his book ... Mein Kampf : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf Which was best seller in Germany ... I'd say that before the war most Germans knew his plans ... I have very serious doubts that Germans actually had read that rant. The Bible is the best seller also, but how many people do you know who can tell you what Deuteronomy or Numbers talks about.