Poland and Hungary in September 1939

Bratwurst Boy:

It's an interesting mind game to see how far your concept of "eternal friendship between the polish and hungarian nation" would go.
No more, no less.

I told you before that I don't believe in such things and history proves me right.
The today allies are tomorrow's enemies or neutrals.
All that matters are national interests.
Brits and Germans for example were best friends as it did go against the French for a long time.
A small interest conflict (and border conflicts are never small) can break up such an "eternal friendship" quite easily!

No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, sorry sir!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 4, 09, 16:03 / #
More Than Just a Common Border After the Greman invasion of Poland in 1939 from the West, North and South (from Czech and Slovakian territory) on the 1st of September 1939, and then the Soviet aggression from the East on September 17th, the Polish-Hungarian border became a blessing for many Poles. In those hard days, Hungarians have proven once again that there was more than just a common border that connects Poles and Hungarians. Many times from early spring until September 1939, Hungarians let the Germans know that they cannot count on them to take part in any kind of operation against Poland. In his speech from 27th April 1939, answering the German demands for military acces, Hungarian foreign affairs minister - count István Csáky said: "Whoever shall cross the Hungarian border without our consent will be considered our enemy (...) If Germans try to do it, it will lead to a disaster. Common sympathy between Polish and Hunagrian nations have with centuries turned into an alliance, alliance that is not written on the paper but very much real and valid". One Minute Was Enough Admiral Miklós Horthy, regent of Hungary, not minding the consequences refused Hitler the military access before the nazi invasion of Poland. Just before the 1st of September 1939, Germany demanded the military access through Hungarian territory for the troops to be transported for the attack on Poland. The Hungarian Council of State under the leadership of regent Miklós Horthy needed just one minute of session to answer unanimously "NO!". Germans Try to Bribe and Then to Threaten Hungarians Nazis, surprised by the Hungarian refusal, offered Hungary a part of Polish territory in the Sambor area and when that failed they send a harsh diplomatic note from the foreign affairs minister Joachim von Ribbentrop threatening Hungarians with consequences if they refuse. However, the Prime Minister of Hungary - Pál Teleki, said that: "From the Hungarian point of view, it is a matter of national honour not to take part in any kind of military action against Poland". Count Pál Teleki, prime minister of the Kingdom of Hungary government. After the fall of Poland, 140-150 thousand Polish refugees found shelter in Hungary, together with many Polish organisations which had full freedom of activity and support of Hungarian government (in spite of Hungary being officialy an ally of the Third Reich). Those noble deeds of Hungarians were a continuation of the 1000 years of brothership between Hungarian and Polish nations, which started in the times of first royal families of Piasts and Arpads. Éljen Magyarország! Long live Hungary! Long live Polish-Hungarian friendship! „Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát, együtt harcol, s issza borát.” „Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki.” Read more about it in: Grzegorz Łubczyk "Henryk Sławik - zapomniany bohater trzech narodów", Oficyna Wydawnicza Rytm, Warszawa 2008

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 4, 09, 18:14 / #

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Jul 4, 09, 18:15 / #
Great banner, 1jola! Thanks for posting it.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 4, 09, 18:52 / #
I like it too. A couple more:

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 4, 09, 18:56 / #
Great! I hope you don't mind me downloading them? Here's a nice poster of the Polish-Hungarian Friendship Day celebrations in Krosno in March this year.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 4, 09, 19:50 / #
I forgot my favorite one:

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 4, 09, 21:22 / #
Couple of nice avatars (click to see them smaller lol):

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,191 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Jul 4, 09, 22:29 / #
Torq: Long live Hungary! Long live Polish-Hungarian friendship! „Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát, együtt harcol, s issza borát.” „Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki.” so there are chances for revival of Great Moravia. Good

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 5, 09, 08:51 / #
Another great book on the subject of Polish-Hungarian friendship that I can recommend is "Węgierski Łącznik" published by Fronda. Ákos Engelmayer, Csaba György Kiss, István Kovács, Atilla Szalai and Imre Molnár talk about their connections to Poland. Did you know that in the late 90's, 36 members of Hungarian parliament spoke fluent Polish (that's 10% of the entire parliament)? You will find this information and loads of other interesting stuff in the above mentioned book. Highly recommended!

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,547 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Jul 5, 09, 11:18 / #
Very interesting info on Hungary's stance vis-a-vis Hitler and Poland in 1939... anyone know why most Poles (govt, army officials) evacuated to Romania rather than Hungary?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 5, 09, 22:43 / #
ConstantineK: Simply Poland was in deal with Hitler in order to bite off some Czechoslovakia's territories. For the hundreth time - in 1938 Poland only took back what the Czechs stole from us when we were busy fighting red hordes in the Polish-Soviet war. And - NO, Poland didn't have any kind of deal with Hitler. ConstantineK: for whose expence this peaceful boarder was formed? Poor Czechoslovakia You should rather ask at whose expense the lands of Upper Hungary (even those with Hungarian majority) were incorporated into Slovakia (a part of Czechoslovakia then) and why did your "poor Slovakia" took part in Hitler's invasion of Poland when they finally had their own country free of Czech domination (a Nazi satelite but still).

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jul 6, 09, 03:52 / #
ConstantineK: Oh, let me think a moment...but how or rather for whose expence this peaceful boarder was formed? Poor Czechoslovakia, she was tore to pieces by her neighbours. Unfortunately they didn't have such opportunity to find a refuge in Poland. Why? Simply Poland was in deal with Hitler in order to bite off some Czechoslovakia's territories. sure and was rescued by soviet Russia......all world should be grateful that such charitable and helpful state exist and had proved to be helpful so many times in the past!

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jul 11, 09, 08:43 / #
Torq: And - NO, Poland didn't have any kind of deal with Hitler. Ah, come on, I need not tell you that during those turmoils which raged on the eve of WW2, Poland was among those who planned to be in profit. It was not Polish fault that all her complaisances were rejected by Hitler and being decieved eventually found herself among those cabbages who hadn't been able to choose right side. Your notorious sufferings during WW2 cannot expiate your set of mind before. Simply, Poland was little predator eaten by bigger ones. How can I pity your fate? Ironside: Russia......all world should be grateful that such charitable and helpful state exist a Your ancestors had quite simple choice, Russia or Hitler, simply it was between Siberia at the worst or crematorium in any case. Now, try to make the same. What would be your choice, Hitler or Stalin?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 09:10 / #
ConstantineK: It was not Polish fault that all her complaisances were rejected by Hitler That's a blatant lie. If we wanted an alliance with Hitler we would have it. Poland was repeatedly offered to join the anti-comintern pact, but each time we steadfastly refused. Only then, when Hitler realised that he won't be able to use us against USSR he decided to destroy us (and USSR, showing their gratitude, gave him a helping hand in doing that). ConstantineK: How can I pity your fate? Who wants your pity? Just don't lie - that's all.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 5, 09, 11:30 / #
Polonius3: why most Poles (govt, army officials) evacuated to Romania rather than Hungary? The government, army officials etc. evacuated to Romania because on 3rd March 1921 Poland and Romania had signed a pact of mutual help in case of Soviet aggression, that guaranteed formally many rights and laws in such situation. So, after the Soviet aggression on 17th September 1939, Polish government evacuated to Romania. http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sojusz_polsko-rumu%C5%84ski You are wrong, however, saying that "most Poles" evacuated to Romania rather than Hungary. 50-60 thousand Polish civilian refugees and about 25 thousand soldiers found shelter in Romania after the fall of Poland in 1939. In the same period, roughly 150 thousand Polish refugees (both civilian and soldiers) evacuated to Hungary.

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,547 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Jul 5, 09, 12:04 / #
Many dzięks!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Jul 5, 09, 12:12 / #
No problem. Glad to help :)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jul 5, 09, 22:27 / #
Torq: Hungarians have proven once again that there was morethan just a common border that connects Poles and Hungarians Oh, let me think a moment...but how or rather for whose expence this peaceful boarder was formed? Poor Czechoslovakia, she was tore to pieces by her neighbours. Unfortunately they didn't have such opportunity to find a refuge in Poland. Why? Simply Poland was in deal with Hitler in order to bite off some Czechoslovakia's territories.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 11, 09, 09:12 / #
1jola: In those hard days, Hungarians have proven once again that there was more than just a common border that connects Poles and Hungarians. If Hungary would had lost lands to Poland too the mood would had been different. (And I doubt Poland would had given it back even with their "eternal friendship" with the hungarian people in mind...friendship doesn't go that far!) ...The principal beneficiaries of territorial adjustment were Romania, Czechoslovakia, and the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. It could had very well happened. The foreign border drawing politicians in Versailles were very "generous" in taking from one and gifting it around the place.. What then???

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 09:20 / #
Bratwurst Boy: If Hungary would had lost lands to Poland too the mood would had been different. You might as well say "If Eskimos had invaded Angola then Angolans wouldn't have had very warm feelings towards them." True - I agree :) Bratwurst Boy: If Hungary would had lost lands to Poland That would be very unlikely anyway as no Polish lands were a part of Kingdom of Hungary, so granting us some part of Hungarian territory wouldn't make any sense at all.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 11, 09, 09:26 / #
Torq: That would be very unlikely It could have happened...but ask yourself how your "eternal friendship" would had held up...I tell you not very well. (It's an easy "What if"-question) The stoopids in Versailles often did not make any sense at all... They wanted to destroy and shatter potential rival empires, no matter what. Everybody knows what followed instead.. PS: I never knew Eskimos and Angolans shared the same continent..:)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 09:34 / #
Bratwurst Boy: ask yourself how your "eternal friendship" would had held up. I am a very down-to-earth, practical man and I'm not very much into asking myself questions like "would I have hated my father if he had beaten me when I was a kid", or "would Hungarians and Poles have been enemies if history had been totally different" etc. etc. I simply see no point in asking myself questions like that. The facts are simple: my father never hit me (although sometimes he should ;)) and Poles and Hungarians are friends. Simple as that. End of. Bratwurst Boy: I never knew Eskimos and Angolans shared the same continent. They don't share the same continent. It was just a rhetorical figure.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 11, 09, 09:39 / #
Torq: I simply see no point in asking myself questions like that. It's an interesting mind game to see how far your concept of "eternal friendship between the polish and hungarian nation" would go. No more, no less. I told you before that I don't believe in such things and history proves me right. The today allies are tomorrow's enemies or neutrals. All that matters are national interests. Brits and Germans for example were best friends as it did go against the French for a long time. A small interest conflict (and border conflicts are never small) can break up such an "eternal friendship" quite easily! No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, sorry sir! PS: I have nothing against friendship between the people, it's that "eternal" what irks me! :)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jul 11, 09, 09:40 / #
Torq: If we wanted an alliance with Hitler we would have it. Poland was repeatedly offeredto join the anti-comintern pact, but each time we steadfastly refused. Only because the circumstances were not favourable. Polish government, I should admit, hasn't been so stupid as to let Hitler in Poland. It is quite another matter to take advantages in universal confusion before war. Whom we can blame that Poland sailed this adventure armored nothing except her natural arrogance?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 09:47 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I don't believe in such things and history proves me right. Actually 1000 years of Polish-Hungarian friendship seems to provide a counter argument to your theory (or maybe just an exception to the rule, who knows). Bratwurst Boy: No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, Well, millions of Hungarians and Poles and Hungarian and Polish politics and intellectuals believed in it throughout history and millions of them still believe it, so you may call us unrealistic if you want, but that doesn't really matter. Bratwurst Boy: sorry sir! Don't call me "sir", I'm not that old :) ConstantineK: Poland sailed this adventure armored nothing except her natural arrogance Please be so kind and allow me to use some of my natural arrogance to tell you to f*uck off. Thank you very much.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jul 11, 09, 09:55 / #
Torq: Actually 1000 years of Polish-Hungarian friendship seems to provide a counter argument to your theory (or maybe just an exception to the rule, who knows). What about the time as the Magyars terrorized Europe, also Poland? And Hungary was for long time proud part of the Habsburg empire, the same what partitioned Poland... You can write a history very black or very white! :)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jul 11, 09, 10:02 / #
Torq: Please be so kind and allow me to use some of my natural arrogance to tellyou to f*uck off. Thank you very much. Do you see...typical Pole. :) That is why I love them so much.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 10:03 / #
Bratwurst Boy: What about the time as the magyars terrorized Europe? Also Poland? There weren't any football games back then so it was like friendly matches. Kept our warriors excercised :) Bratwurst Boy: the same what partitioned Poland And the same that never discriminated against its Polish citizens (Polish noblemen Count Kazimierz Badeni was the prime minister of Austro-Hungary in 1887-95 and Julian Dunajewski was the treasury minister). You can write a history very black or very white! :)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jul 11, 09, 16:54 / #
Bratwurst Boy: It's an interesting mind game to see how far your concept of "eternal friendship between the polish and hungarian nation" would go. No more, no less. I told you before that I don't believe in such things and history proves me right. The today allies are tomorrow's enemies or neutrals. All that matters are national interests. Brits and Germans for example were best friends as it did go against the French for a long time. A small interest conflict (and border conflicts are never small) can break up such an "eternal friendship" quite easily! No pragmatic or realistic brain believes in something like "hereditary" or "eternal" friendship between nations, sorry sir! Nice point. I want to pinpoint one simple fact: Hungary and Poland have no common border. Poland (like most other countries in the world) had many territorial disputes and wars with all its neighbors: Slovakia, Chech, Germany, Lithuania and Bielorus' and Ukraine. No one was spared a war. If Hungary had a 1 km long border with Poland, we would add that country to the list of "non-eternal friends" as well :)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 11, 09, 17:00 / #
Nathan: If Hungary had a 1 km long border with Poland, we would add that country to the list of "non-eternal friends" as well :) Is that a fact? How does that look like to you, Nathan... CLICK TO ENLARGE IMAGES Looks like a pretty long border, eh? So long that it could even be considered a union :) I also like that picture by Hungarian artist... ...notice the common borders and the feelings associated with them. You are all simply jealous because there is nothing comparable to the Eternal-Polish-Hungarian-Friendship between any other two countries in the world! :)