Poland - Russia Russians ready for discussion about history ?

celinski wrote:

ConstantineK wrote:
Poles are extrimely fixed on the Katyn event, it is so bored
When we look at Russia's role in eastern Poland it has been ignored, denied, and I am sorry it bores you. 40% of Poland was killed off, exilied forever to another country. It was not Germany doing this in eastern Poland it was on Stalins orders, it was not just Jewish, it was Greek and Romam Catholic. It was Stalin that refused to allow USA access to airfield to assit Poland in the end.
Poland being held captive by communism was pre planned take over of a country I lost. If this bores you so, I can suggest not clicking on this link but going to another one. What bores one may have altered anothers history.

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 23, 08, 04:40 / #
http://www.dziennik.pl/kultura/article112611/Rosjanie_jednak_obejrza_K atyn.html link in Polish. shortly Russians agreed to show Katyn in their cinemas and even partly sponsor this project and other iniciatives promoting Polish culture in Russia. Poles and Russians decided to promote Russian culture in Poland and Polish in Russia. There will be some new agreements in this case. In my opinion it is very interesting change.

hairballThreads: 37 Posts: 787 Joined: Dec 16, 07	Jan 23, 08, 05:07 / #
I think that this is possitive. Dialogue is the way forward. We don't want a repeat of the '80s "arms race", which "missile shields" will incorage.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 23, 08, 05:55 / #
hairball wrote: I think that this is possitive yes, if it is the truth. Is there a link to this in English?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Jan 23, 08, 08:31 / #
Sadek wrote: shortly Russians agreed to show Katyn in their cinemas Will they also clap their hands?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 23, 08, 08:42 / #
Histor - YES, but please only not Katyn, it's so tiresome. Let's try to choose another point in history were Russians killed Poles. It will be more productive. Poles are extrimely fixed on the Katyn event, it is so bored

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Jan 23, 08, 09:06 / #
ConstantineK wrote: Let's try to choose another point in history were Russians killed Poles. It will be more productive. Poles in Napoleon's army were left without food during their retreat.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 23, 08, 09:53 / #
ConstantineK wrote: Poles are extrimely fixed on the Katyn event, it is so bored When we look at Russia's role in eastern Poland it has been ignored, denied, and I am sorry it bores you. 40% of Poland was killed off, exilied forever to another country. It was not Germany doing this in eastern Poland it was on Stalins orders, it was not just Jewish, it was Greek and Romam Catholic. It was Stalin that refused to allow USA access to airfield to assit Poland in the end. Poland being held captive by communism was pre planned take over of a country I lost. If this bores you so, I can suggest not clicking on this link but going to another one. What bores one may have altered anothers history. Exiled as hostiles, "enemies of the state", Communist Poland, 1951

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 23, 08, 10:13 / #
Sadek wrote: Russians ready for discussion about history ? I believe that they are ready. And, without prejudices

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 23, 08, 12:01 / #
ConstantineK wrote: Histor - YES, but please only not Katyn, it's so tiresome. Let's try to choose another point in history were Russians killed Poles. It will be more productive. Poles are extrimely fixed on the Katyn event, it is so bored Putin agreed lets talk about Katyn and close this page ... I think it is good. Generaly this whole "show" about promoting culture, talking about hard history and making some concessions has some reasons. we will see what will happen (in this case I am not going to tell what I think ;) ).

hancockThreads: 1 Posts: 118 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 23, 08, 12:26 / #
None of us can be responsble for our own birth. we all are born into some country we all put on shoes maybe different ones. If our countries have borders they are mostly not of our own making but our silly governments. Shoot the governments shake hands with our neighbours who we could have been ourselves and be happy.

hancockThreads: 1 Posts: 118 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 23, 08, 13:08 / #
If all we can leave our children is bad history will they turn out be bad children? Believe in life love peace beauty forgiveness music agelessness sun moon and stars clean air, clean water. Animals that that our beautiful children will always see, and not just read about. Leave noncence at home and have a nice drink with a friend.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 23, 08, 13:17 / #
hancock wrote: If all we can leave our children is bad history will they turn out be bad children? First and for most lets let our children be children. I love the sound of childrens laughter. As my children grow I want them taught the truth. History is our childrens to explore just as it was ours. In order to assure they don't repeat "bad history", they must understand the bad parts as well as the good. Todays children are tommorow's future, reguardless of where we live.

hancockThreads: 1 Posts: 118 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 23, 08, 13:27 / #
Celinski maybe you are right as with Lwow I was taught by my mum and dad 10 dead on his side and 13 dead on her side of the family side forget it. thats what happened but thats war forget is try to love everyone. Why not . For me thats ok.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 23, 08, 14:04 / #
hancock wrote: For me thats ok. My family were near Wolyn, right next to Losiatyn. My father had a hard time talking about his life in Poland. Most of what I learned came from my aunts, grandfather and documents I found. I grew to love Poland and her people just by hearing about it from my grandfather. He never gave up hope that the Polish eagle would fly free. As I learned the truth I was very upset, how dare anyone hurt my family upset. I guess I could have said this was enough for me, instead I found out that this misinformation was what people believed. When I looked at the amount killed, slaved and exiled I was outraged at the hidden truth. Stalin had silenced a country under communist rule, USA just didn't bring it up, maybe out of shame. In history to have this many people, treated so horrific and yet it was referred to as the "holocaust" as we all know was the suffering of Jewish. We were and are the "Forgotten History" and I feel we have a responsability to make sure our loved ones are remembered. I speak for my family and other victims that suffered at the hands of "Stalin" who killed in Katlyn, sent the reserve Polish military, and just Polish in general to Siberia to slave and die. The one that lived after this, he used them as his own and when done, took their country and exiled them to another country. This has nothing to do with today's Russian's unless they decide to put "Stalin" on a pedistal as a great hero. He was not a great hero, he was a mass killer. Germany has taken the rap for actions perpitrated by Stalin. I want the truth to be told and the Russians, Americans and the rest of the world to understand what took place and why. It is accountability, and without this (reguardless of timeframe) responsabilty must be taken or respect is not being given to the victims.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 23, 08, 12:50 / #
Sadek wrote: Putin agreed lets talk about Katyn and close this page News Flash, History is never a closed page. This is why it is called "history". It is documented and studied for the rest of mankind.

matthiasThreads: 4 Posts: 1,577 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Edited by: matthias Jan 23, 08, 21:55 / #
www.kasprzyk.demon.co.uk/www/WW2.html This a great depiction of events that occured during WW2. It it great Russia is willing to work to repair this relationship. However their should be more countries involved in this endeavor. Our enemies and Allies in WW2. This is something that must be reconciled for all of us to move into the future. Highly Recommend Article

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jan 23, 08, 23:42 / #
Most did that already for more than 60 years...move on!

matthiasThreads: 4 Posts: 1,577 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Edited by: matthias Jan 24, 08, 00:41 / #
the discussion has been going on for 60 maybe you can tell us bratwurst where those discussions took place. lol russia denied katyn for almost 50 years. The allies also don't discuss their mistakes. I lived in US and I can definatly say their version of ww2 is scewed. they make it seem they saved the world. so don't tell me there has been an honest discussion.

Tran AnhThreads: 2 Posts: 128 Joined: Jun 23, 07	Jan 24, 08, 01:00 / #
Bratwurst Boy wrote: Most did that already for more than 60 years...move on! As I have said somewhere, either history has to be utterly forgotten by everyone (a clean sweep) or it must be remembered to the filthiest truth by everyone. History is ever a source of injustice and inequality in this world, in which certain countries with their powerful media and well-sponsored academics almost possess the monopoly of presenting their story whereas endevours from the rest (particularly the ones contradicting the 'mainstream') are often too quickly to be derided 'living in the past'. It is obvious that the cause of development of many rich countries depends significantly on how their history is told and intepreted to their youth and the fact stands that those intepretations carry not a few gross distortions. Of course when one is comfortably rich at the top of the world, history telling becomes not as particular important as the earlier stage, and we suddenly see why so many people from uber-developed world (other than nerds and the unemployed!) are so smug about their immunity to 'nationalism' and any kind of historical nit-picking. Congratz to them, but they should be reminded that other peoples have their right to 'beautified' facts too (particularly that may be their only source of pride against so grim a reality!) Anyway, as long as we are all equally prosperous, no one would bother to touch a boring history book (other than to recycle it to something more useful!)

matthiasThreads: 4 Posts: 1,577 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Edited by: matthias Jan 24, 08, 01:05 / #
Tran Anh good post

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 24, 08, 02:37 / #
celinski wrote: ConstantineK wrote: Poles are extrimely fixed on the Katyn event, it is so bored When we look at Russia's role in eastern Poland it has been ignored, denied, and I am sorry it bores you. 40% of Poland was killed off, exilied forever to another country. It was not Germany doing this in eastern Poland it was on Stalins orders, it was not just Jewish, it was Greek and Romam Catholic. It was Stalin that refused to allow USA access to airfield to assit Poland in the end. Poland being held captive by communism was pre planned take over of a country I lost. If this bores you so, I can suggest not clicking on this link but going to another one. What bores one may have altered anothers history. You are too affected. History is cold and insensible, but you want to blame and to judge. For example, after more then 60 years I can watch overe circumstanses of WWII with cold blood. May I advise you the same on the Polish history?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 24, 08, 06:06 / #
ConstantineK wrote: blame and to judge No, it is a very large piece of history that has been distorted, denied. If this was blame, it implys we do not know who is responsable, we do. I clearly do not understand how such a large number of people have been silenced for so long? ConstantineK wrote: History is cold and insensible, Yes, and there are some parts of history that are beautuiful and show the human growth. I may be affected because of personal events, yet as a human still be able to see the wrong in not showing remorse out of respect. Ignoring Stalin's treatment toward Poland is not going to work for Russia anymore. For Russia to do this only further serves to show the country as just as cold and uncaring as before. Poland is no longer silent, I am here to remind Russia they now must take responsability for the actions taken 1939-45 on Polish population.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 24, 08, 07:55 / #
celinski wrote: Yes, and there are some parts of history that are beautuiful and show the human growth. I may be affected because of personal events, yet as a human still be able to see the wrong in not showing remorse out of respect. Time heals. I hardly can imagine that Greek, for example feels some discomfort toward Italians for total destruction of Macedonian state and fate of their king Perseus. It's just a historical fact. I think that you descendants will save only -ckiy from you, and you affected history will became just a fact too. celinski wrote: I am here to remind Russia they now must take responsability for the actions taken 1939-45 on Polish population. And what we must do for it? I think to pay you compensation, isnt it?

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Jan 24, 08, 07:57 / #
ConstantineK wrote: And what we must do for it? I think to pay you compensation, isnt it? ;) no we must have normal realtionship that is all, say it was as it was and move forward

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 24, 08, 08:02 / #
ConstantineK wrote: pay you compensation This is not about money, this is about respect. Stop thinking Polish will be pushed under your carpets. We may have lost our country, but some of us did survive to speak out.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Edited by: ConstantineK Jan 24, 08, 08:22 / #
Sadek wrote: ConstantineK wrote: And what we must do for it? I think to pay you compensation, isnt it? ;) no we must have normal realtionship that is all, say it was as it was and move forward We have, isnt it? Now we can buy your meat, what do you want else? celinski wrote: ConstantineK wrote: pay you compensation This is not about money, this is about respect. Stop thinking Polish will be pushed under your carpets. We may have lost our country, but some of us did survive to speak out. So, I dont understand what you want exactly. Do you want that our television always prays over polish issues? Well, may be you want to create an additional part in our constitution, concerning Poland and their citizens?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Jan 24, 08, 08:48 / #
ConstantineK wrote: I dont understand what you want exactly. First, Pres. Putin might try the truth vs. putting Stalin in your childrens history books as some great hero. Stalin was a great killer. Second, stop with the lie's about the past treatment of Polish. Stalin's value of the people was nothing, his own people included. Third, Maybe a little sympathy for the past deads of killing so many. Monuments for the millions that lost their life's, family's, homes. Just for a few. Since Poland became free in 1989, floods of documents have been released, people are able to seach for loved ones left behind. In short the "Holocaust" is no longer a Jewish crime. Catholic's are now able to speak out, the cat is out of the bag so to speak. Since you brough up money, I will ask you, why should Poland compensate the families from eastern Poland when it was Russia that took their homes and lives and I might add, Country?

matthiasThreads: 4 Posts: 1,577 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Edited by: matthias Jan 24, 08, 13:13 / #
Constantine you brought up are greeks mad at italians. that happened centuries ago everybody is dead. however ww2 and commmunism just happened and many people who witnessed these crimes are still alive. their is a difference. if you don't see that something is wrong with you. in addition another difference. italians didn't deny what happened. where russia denied it for 50 years . to this day the whole truth of ww2 is distorted in some countries. its time to set the record straight. is that to much to ask?

matthiasThreads: 4 Posts: 1,577 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Edited by: matthias Jan 24, 08, 13:47 / #
constantine here is an exert from an article on the katyn film found on economist.com that came out today. Astonishingly, some in Russia are now reviving the lie that the murderers at Katyn were not by the NKVD, but the Nazis. That was maintained during the communist era, but only by punishing savagely those who tried to tell the truth. Last year, as Mr Wajda's film opened in Poland, a commentary in a Russian government newspaper, Rossiiskaya Gazeta, dismissed the evidence of Soviet involvement in Katyn as "unreliable" so as you can see the issue is relevant. Russians are cowards and can't face what they did.

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 24, 08, 14:12 / #
what is important Russians agreed to show this movie in Russia on the most important Russian film festivals and in normal cinemas, it is good sign ... this example shows freedom of speach in Russia (you need gov permition to show movie) but all in all we have little succes in contacts with our eastern neighbour.