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Poles and Falaise pocket - WWII


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Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
  May 14, 09, 00:58 /  #
Okay...you are the native! :)

jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
  May 14, 09, 09:35 /  #
Is That . . . I give it one more go, but if you continue being rude to me, I’ll close the door and that will be that.

Part of the problem is that the quote system takes things out of context.
The context is Poles at Falaise.

There were 3 distinct types of Poles at that party.
American ones.
“British” ones.
Nazi ones.

The comments you took out of context, and then argued against looked at view of invaded country (Poland) recruits into the Vehrmacht.

Immigrants (Jews) aren’t loved in any country.
They weren’t loved in Poland.
People resented that Jews got rich, stinking rich.
They blamed Jews for their poverty.
That’s the way people saw Jews after the depression, you can point out that it’s not historical fact until you are blue in the face, but you won’t alter the fact that that was how people saw Jews.
You won’t alter the fact that that’s how potential recruits to Nationalist parties see immigrants.

Nazi ideology exploited that racialism amongst in invaded countries.
Those with a natural pleasure in bullying, robbing, raping, torturing, and murdering wanted some of it.
· To their mind, the Nazis were robbing the Jews to build up their industry.
· To their mind, the Nazis were enslaving the Jews to build up their industry.
And the Poles who joined the Nazis wanted some of it.
Hence my questions to you, the ones you ducked, are relevant because they get you to look at it from a viewpoint other than your own.

Invasions are expensive.
Occupations are expensive.
Invasions and occupations were a growth industry in Nazi-Germany.
The Jews helped to fund it.
The Nazis even took the gold fillings out of Jews’ teeth.
The Nazis used the gold fillings to top up the pot that bought the diesel for the diesel engines that poisoned the Jews.
The Nazis even collected up the dirty knickers from Jews in case they might be useful.
The Poles wanted some of that became Nazis.

Understand their point of view, or remain ignorant of it; it’s your choice.

Thank you for identifying and confirming where Vehrmacht butchers killed so many Jews.

Did you know that during their retreat across Russia, the Wehrmacht dug up and burnt the evidence as part of their most successful propaganda coup?

The myth of the Wehrmacht's clean hands?
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
  May 14, 09, 11:37 /  #
Is That . . .
A Nazi Heinkel 111 at "rooftop" height straffed a infants' school children in the school playground just before 0900hrs in Bexleyheath Kent in the Spring of 1943.
He killed several and injured many.
The school lay to the left of his flight path.
He only squeezed off a short deliberate burst rather than randomly spraying the area.

Bexleyheath was an entirely residential area at the time.

Immediately before straffing those children he opened up on other civilians.

It was fairly normal practice for hit and run Nazi bombers.
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
Edited by: jeep   May 14, 09, 11:57 /  #
Id That . . .

It is reliably reported that when the Nazis seached Picassos flat, an officer stopped to look at a painting of Guernica, he asked.
. . . Did you do this?'

Picasso replied'

. . . 'No, you did'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guernica_(painting)

For them as don't know about Guernic, it's where the Nazi Airforce established it's reputation as an anti-civilian terrorist organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Guernica
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
  May 15, 09, 10:23 /  #
Is That . . .

If it's murder, it's murder, is to blunt a tool.

The Nazi's 'murdered' for personal gain.
When they murdered their way into another country, they went to the Bank to withdraw the gold reserves for Evil Adolph.
They raised taxes to pay the costs of their Occupation.
They took a large percentage of what the factories produced for Nazi consumption.
They murdered the halt the sick and the lame.
When they invaded Poland they murdered the prisoners and their guards.
They murdered Jewsih women and children.

When the RAF "murdered", they murdered to save life.
Rightly or wrongly, they expected mass bombing to shorten the War.
They expected that by shortening the War they would save lives.

If you transfer the comparison to Japan.
When the Yanks took an island, the Japanese civilians on that Island committed suicide.
Additionally, Japanese soldiers "murdered" a lot of GIs.
And a lot of GIs murdered Jap soldiers.

It's estimated, rightly or wrongly, the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved at least 2 million lives more they they cost.
There seems little doubt that if the Emporer had not told the Japs to lay down their weapons, the Japs would have fought to the last man, and the civilians would have committed suicide.

I've never seen any balance sheets for Allied bombing in Germany.
I don't know if it prolongued or shortened the War.

I do know that the intention was to shorten the was, and to save lives.
That's both Nazi and Allied lives.

It's "HEAR HEAR"
nunczkaThreads: 17
Posts: 623
Joined: Sep 13, 08
Edited by: nunczka   May 15, 09, 14:49 /  #
jeep:
I've never seen any balance sheets for Allied bombing in Germany.
I don't know if it prolonged or shortened the War.

Allied bombing greatly shortened the war. The Brits stopped bombing during daylight, due to the enormous loss of aircraft and lives. The continued bombing by night using LORAN to guide them.
Dresden was fire bombed by the Brits at night allowing the planes to see their targets from the fires.

Daylight bombing was resumed by the US, It was assumed the the American B17 flying fortress was capable to fight off German aircraft. This proved true to a certain extent, but the still suffered losses.. It was not until the American Mustang was introduced with its long range belly gas tanks that protected the bombers from the enemy. They were no match for the ME62 jet. But by sheer numbers they prevailed.
It was Allied Air power that destroyed the German armour at falaise
The 75 MM was ineffective against the German armour. The German 88 decimated the American M4 Sherman tanks.
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,778
Joined: Feb 26, 09
  May 15, 09, 14:59 /  #
jeep:
It's estimated, rightly or wrongly, the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved at least 2 million lives more they they cost.

Why Those towns were chosen? for what reason ?
nunczkaThreads: 17
Posts: 623
Joined: Sep 13, 08
  May 15, 09, 15:09 /  #
Ironside:
Why Those towns were chosen? for what reason

[url=http://history1900s.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/hiroshima.htm][/url ]
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
  May 15, 09, 21:26 /  #
B17s bombed Dresden just after us Nunkzka.
The raid had two purposes.
1) To reduce troops movements against the Ruskies.

2) To advize the Ruskies to advance no further than the agreed line.

I've seen academic arguments both for and against the idea that our bombing saved lives.

Yup our Typhoons certainly used to make a mess of Nazi armour.
A friend who flew during the Battle of the Bulge told me he almost felt sorry for the Nazis.
A rocket from a Typhoon burst a Tiger open like a paper bag.
We used to flash our Fireflies (up-gunned Shermans) to draw the Nazi armour out so the Tiffies could have a bit of fun.
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
  May 15, 09, 22:13 /  #
So far, I've been unable to find a contemporary account of fighting undertaken by British Pole during the push to trap the Nazis at Falaise.

Here's an account of fighting undertaken by other Allied troops in the same area.
I daresay, it's very similar to what the Poles experienced.

Here we were, then, sitting at the bottom of . . . , its thickly forested slopes hiding a considerable force of Nazis.
During the months of preparation for the Normandy invasion the War Office planners realised that this mountain was the key to success.
Plans were made for its capture at the earliest moment, but events had ordered otherwise, and now, two months from the date of our landing, we were making the first assault on an objective which, if held in strength, could prove almost impregnable, and could, in any case, hold up all our plans for smashing the Nazis unless it could quickly be reduced.
The broken country protecting the main mass of the mountain was thickly wooded and broken by small streams running between deep banks.
Towards the broad, rather flat summit the trees gave way to stunted bushes and heather.

The task of carrying this stronghold by assault was given to . . . , who were assisted by a regiment of tanks, the . . . Hussars. The infantry Brigade consisted of the . . . Battalions of the . . . Infantry.

For three days the battle raged along the mountain slopes.
Then, on the night of . . . two months after we landed on the beaches, a troop of Sherman tanks from the . . . clambered up the last slope, followed by the footsore warriors of the . . . .
For those three days the . . . had fought without rest and almost without food.
They had fought amongst the silver birches and the waist-high bracken and had faced heavy mortar and machine-gun fire as they forced themselves up and through the enemy.
During those three days they had three meals.
Each morning they had a light breakfast and then nothing until the next morning.'
Only men endowed with supreme courage and trained to perfection could have accomplished such a stupendous task. . .

"The Germans were clever," he admitted, "and waited until we were a few hundred yards from them before opening fire.
We could not go back and we couldn't call up artillery to help us, so we just had to clean out the machine-gun nests."

The words sound so simple. "We just had to clean out the machine-gun nests."
I have seen that process.
Men crawl on their bellies through grass and along hedges.
Before them lies the machine-gun.
They can see little, but usually the enemy can see them as they crawl, and a stream of bullets suddenly screams a few inches over their heads or bites into the ground at their side.
The work of cleaning out a machine-gun nest is arduous, with sudden death the reward for an instant of inattention, and sometimes death comes just the same.
I was able to picture that scene along the valley slopes of these gallant men stalking the Spandaus, dying under the lovely trees, their hands clutching convulsively at the wild flowers, the sun fading as the sombre shadows of death closed over them.

The Colonel took up his tale again.
On the second day they went into support of the . . . , their sister battalion.
The Colonel looked up, his eyes shining as he spoke of the . . . .
He gave ungrudging praise to them, for it was they who broke through the German defences in a bloody battle.

"Theirs is the credit for our success," he said. "They did the close work."
The . . . came up against strong infantry defences, and on those steep, shady slopes fought out a grim battle.

Men fought in little groups, taking on the enemy in hand-to-hand combats.
A burst from Sten guns and then the bayonet.
In those forest glades men slipped and struggled against an enemy strongly entrenched and camouflaged 'by the natural surroundings.
The Nazis fought it out grimly, for their orders were to stand to the last man.
The men of Wiltshire saw that the Nazis died.
The ground was red with the blood of the slain and the wounded.

Fought out in a silence broken only by the sobbing breath of exhausted men and the shrill cry of agony as bayonets struck fiercely into yielding flesh, the battle swayed up and down the hillsides.
Both battalions came into the scene, and the . . . were caught in a terrible crossfire from machine-guns and mortars, but they broke through the enemy, and chased them up the mountain.

No tanks could aid them in this close country, and after each advance up the mountain they would be held up again by cunningly hidden machine-guns and mortars which did not open up until the . . . were nearly on top of them.
At last, on the third day, the tanks, which :had been struggling up the mountain in country where tanks would not normally attempt to operate, broke through and fought their way to the summit.
Crashing "through the bracken, avoiding demolitions of gunsites and concrete forts, they stood in a little group, this troop of the . . . .
Behind them came the . . . , weary but happy.
. . . was ours.

All that night they heard the Nazis digging in, and for both tanks and infantry the position was very uncomfortable.
Exposed to anti-tank guns as they stood starkly on the summit, the little force might have been overwhelmed by a sudden counter-attack, but the enemy, too, were tired, and they had been cut to pieces in hand-to-hand battles and were not anxious to renew their acquaintance with the . . . .
Besides, the tanks were there, and where a few tanks stood more tanks could be brought up, so the Hun gave it up as a bad job and left the mountain to the victors.

The opposition never materialised, and the Colonel, who was now nearly asleep, looked up and added his last words on the subject. "The only Germans we saw on top of the mountain were those who gave themselves up."
He closed his eyes, the map slipped from his knees, and he was asleep.
I tiptoed away.

The cooks had tea ready, and the men dipped their canteens into the dixies and went back to their hedges and trees.
Some took a sip and then went straight off to sleep. Some washed the grime from their faces first and then slept, but within half an hour not all the artillery barrages of Normandy could have waked . . .
jeepThreads: -
Posts: 32
Joined: May 10, 09
Edited by: jeep   May 16, 09, 21:19 /  #
nunczka:
A) How would you hold up under the same circumstances.?

B) Under fire would you be willing to die or surrender?

A)
Me, I'd be so brave, so cool, so calm, and so collected Nunczka,
that I wouldn't even notice I'd filled my underpants and puked-up my last meal
and be busy praying that my chattering teeth didn't give away my position.

b)
I'd avoid both of them to the best of my ability Nunczka.

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