LIVE FORUMS / ARCHIVES / 2009
PolishForums - ARCHIVE Witamy in PolishForums Archive :
Archives / 2009 / History of Poland / posts: 418

POLES ARE HEROES AND JEW-SAVERS


page 1 of 14:  1  2  3  4  5  ...  10  11  12  13  14  Next »

Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,833
Joined: Apr 11, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 13:08 /  #
This is the Polish self-image according to a recent survey reported by Polish Radio's online English serivce:

The Polish Hero, one who saved Jews and fought the occupier is the most prominent image that Poles have of themselves from World War II, according to a poll by Pentor.

A majority also think that that Poles suffered more than even Jews during Nazi occupation.

Eighty-five percent said that Poles were engaged in fighting occupying forces and 75 percent say that Poles refused to collaborate with the enemy. Eighty-one percent of respondents think that Poles helped Jews and 85 percent are of the opinion that Poles helped one another.
The Polish Hero, one who saved Jews and fought the occupier is the most prominent image that Poles have of themselves from World War II, according to a poll by Pentor.

A majority also think that that Poles suffered more than even Jews during Nazi occupation.

Eighty-five percent said that Poles were engaged in fighting occupying forces and 75 percent say that Poles refused to collaborate with the enemy. Eighty-one percent of respondents think that Poles helped Jews and 85 percent are of the opinion that Poles helped one another.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/thenews/national/artykul114209_poles_think_ of_themselves_as_wwii_heroes_.html

HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 14:00 /  #
Is history still taught in Polish schools?
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09
Edited by: Pan Kazimierz   Aug 19, 09, 14:34 /  #
^Are you suggesting that there were more Poles involved in killing the Jews and generally helping the Nazis than there were helping them and fighting the Nazis? Otherwise, this image makes sense.
Except for the image where the Poles suffered more than the Jews, however...

Unless you're referring to the numbers? Yeah, only eighty-five percent saying that Poles fought the occupying forces!?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 14:47 /  #
Pan Kazimierz:
^Are you suggesting that there were more Poles involved in killing the Jews and generally helping the Nazis than there were helping them and fighting the Nazis? Otherwise, this image makes sense.

I'm stating as a fact that some Poles did collaborate with the Nazis. Quite a lot of Poles. Although not as many as the Poles who fought against the Nazis.


Pan Kazimierz:
Except for the image where the Poles suffered more than the Jews, however...

Sadly this is a very common problem even among educated Poles.


Pan Kazimierz:
Unless you're referring to the numbers? Yeah, only eighty-five percent saying that Poles fought the occupying forces!?

It would depend on how the question was worded.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,429
Joined: May 28, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 14:51 /  #
Harry, it's true that Poland (as a nation) did not collaborate with the Nazis and was officially an enemy of theirs even though it would have been far easier to just collaborate with them and become their ally.
Polonius3Threads: 1,005
Posts: 4,833
Joined: Apr 11, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 15:02 /  #
...And probably not as many Poles collabroated with the Nazis as did Polish Jews with the Soviet invaders. In fact, there were also Jews collaborating with the Nazis (although this fact is now conveenietnly suppressed) as memebrs of the Judenräte, Ghetto police, kapo, and individual Gestapo informers.
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 15:06 /  #
Harry:
I'm stating as a fact that some Poles did collaborate with the Nazis. Quite a lot of Poles. Although not as many as the Poles who fought against the Nazis.

In which case the image that the Poles overall fought the Nazis and helped the Jews being the "most prominent" makes sense.

Harry:
Sadly this is a very common problem even among educated Poles.

Well, now that I think about it, it can make sense if, and only if, one counts in that equation all Polish citizens as Poles, including the Jewish ones.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 15:27 /  #
Polonius3:
And probably not as many Poles collabroated with the Nazis as did Polish Jews with the Soviet invaders.

Care to have a bet on that? A very very large bet?

The number of Jews living in Poland on 1 September was 3,474,000. 38.8% of those Jews lived in the area invaded by the USSR in 1939. For the sake of argument let's say that every single one of those 1,347,912 Jews collaborated with the Soviets. The peak postwar Jewish population in Poland was 240,000. For the sake of argument let's say that every single one them collaborated with the Soviets and were from the Polish territory that had been seized by the Nazis in 1939. That gives us a total of 1,587,912 Jews who collaborated with the Soviets. Which is more than a million less than the number of Poles who collaborated with the Nazis.

Did you have history lessons at school?
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,429
Joined: May 28, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 15:30 /  #
Polonius3:
...And probably not as many Poles collabroated with the Nazis as did Polish Jews with the Soviet invaders. In fact, there were also Jews collaborating with the Nazis (although this fact is now conveenietnly suppressed) as memebrs of the Judenräte, Ghetto police, kapo, and individual Gestapo informers.

The Soviets also collaborated with the Nazis when they signed the Pact agreeing they would divide Poland up amongst each other and not invade even though then Nazis lied.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 15:32 /  #
Pan Kazimierz:
Well, now that I think about it, it can make sense if, and only if, one counts in that equation all Polish citizens as Poles, including the Jewish ones.

Not really. There were no deathcamps for Poles, only ones for Polish Jews, Dutch Jews, German Jews, etc.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,429
Joined: May 28, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 15:34 /  #
Harry:
Not really. There were no deathcamps for Poles, only ones for Polish Jews, Dutch Jews, German Jews, etc

Then why were half those killed Polish?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 15:35 /  #
PlasticPole:
Then why were half those killed Polish?

They were killed for being Jewish, their nationality meant nothing.
PlasticPoleThreads: 10
Posts: 5,429
Joined: May 28, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 15:38 /  #
So, all the Poles who died in the holocaust were also Jewish? I thought that half those killed were ethnic Poles and others (like Roma and homosexuals, enemies of the Nazis, intellectuals) the other half Jews from around Europe.
caprice49Threads: 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Aug 5, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 15:45 /  #
PlasticPole:
I thought that half those killed were ethnic Poles and others (like Roma and homosexuals, enemies of the Nazis, intellectuals)

You're right. People 28 nations perished there and they were not all Jews.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 15:47 /  #
PlasticPole:
So, all the Poles who died in the holocaust were also Jewish?

I said that there were no death camps for Poles. If you know of any deathcamps to which people were sent solely for being Polish, do name them.
caprice49Threads: 4
Posts: 288
Joined: Aug 5, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 16:13 /  #
Harry:
death camps for Poles.

Stuffhof
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 16:20 /  #
caprice49:
Stuffhof

Stutthof. Not strictly speaking a death camp and its gas chambers were used for Jews as part of the Final Solution.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Aug 19, 09, 16:39 /  #
Harry:
That gives us a total of 1,587,912 Jews who collaborated with the Soviets. Which is more than a million less than the number of Poles who collaborated with the Nazis.

Oh Harry, have we had a nice summer break and we can return to spitting on Poles? Does living in Poland actually afford you a holiday? You could have gone sailing with me in Mazury and touch up on a little WWII history. After all, Hitler did spend over 800 days in Mazury; Himmler, Ribentropp, Goering, all had their bunkers there, in addition to OKH complex and other interesting projects the Germans had for their Odin given right to our lands.


Site the source for two and a half million Polish collaborators not including German minorities and Jews. A cursory look on wiki gives this:

Depending on a definition of collaboration (and of a Polish citizen, based on ethnicity and minority status), scholars estimate number of "Polish collaborators" at around several thousand in a population of about 35 million (that number is supported by the Israeli War Crimes Commission). [66]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_with_the_Axis_Powers_during _World_War_II#Poland

Harry:
If you know of any deathcamps to which people were sent solely for being Polish, do name them.

Who was Auschwitz built for? One could easily make the case that Poles were dying in German concentration camps while Jews were obidiently working for the Nazi war effort. And no, you don't get that in school or the Discovery Chanel.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 16:54 /  #
1jola:
You could have gone sailing with me in Mazury and touch up on a little WWII history. After all, Hitler did spend over 800 days in Mazury; Himmler, Ribentropp, Goering, all had their bunkers there, in addition to OKH complex and other interesting projects the Germans had for their Odin given right to our lands.

I actually went to all of those places last month. The state Sztynort palace has been allowed to get in is a crying shame. It's interesting that Himmler's bunker is so much better located than Hitler's.


1jola:
Site the source for two and a half million Polish collaborators not including German minorities and Jews.

Strange that you want to be so picky about Polish collaborators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste says that there were 2.75 million Poles who signed up. Of course you'll claim that they weren't Poles.


1jola:
One could easily make the case that Poles were dying in German concentration camps while Jews were obidiently working for the Nazi war effort.

Well, one could if one hasn't been to Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 17:21 /  #
Harry:
The state Sztynort palace has been allowed to get in is a crying shame.

Indeed, the communists made a collective farm there.

Harry:
Strange that you want to be so picky about Polish collaborators. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volksliste says that there were 2.75 million Poles who signed up. Of course you'll claim that they weren't Poles.

Were they Poles? They signed the list claiming German blood. I know, there is a huge outcry now how these poor traitors were booted to Germany after the war.

The Polish underground passed death sentences to the more active ones.

Harry:
Well, one could if one hasn't been to Treblinka, Sobibor or Belzec.

What did you see at Treblinka that I missed?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09
[Suspended]
  Aug 19, 09, 18:27 /  #
Harry and 1Jola, its like watching "Bold and Beatifull" same faces beating a dead horse for a thousand episodes.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09
Edited by: TheOther   Aug 19, 09, 18:42 /  #
1jola:
Were they Poles? They signed the list claiming German blood

They lived in Poland, so they were Poles even if they had German roots.

I know, there is a huge outcry now how these poor traitors were booted to Germany after the war

You are generalizing too much. During the war you had the "choice": either become part of the Volksliste (if the Nazis actually gave you the chance) or get deported and possibly die. What would you do in this case to protect your family? Poor traitor...
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 18:53 /  #
TheOther:
They lived in Poland, so they were Poles even if they had German roots.

Ridiculous. Ever heard of Jus Sanguinis?
By your standards, they're Polish regardless of whether they have citizenship or even knew the Polish language. Hell, that even makes the invading army Polish!
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09
Edited by: TheOther   Aug 19, 09, 18:56 /  #
Pan Kazimierz:
By your standards, they're Polish regardless of whether they have citizenship or even knew the Polish language

Those people stayed in Poland after WW1 for a reason. By doing so they gave up their previous German/ Austrian-Hungarian/ Russian citizenship and became Poles. Jus Sanguinis had nothing to do with it. So what's your problem?

Hell, that even makes the invading army Polish

I always knew that Poland started WW2... :)
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 19:05 /  #
^That not all of those on the list were, in fact, Polish citizens.
TheOtherThreads: 5
Posts: 1,584
Joined: Jul 13, 09
  Aug 19, 09, 19:07 /  #
Pan Kazimierz:
That not all of those on the list were, in fact, Polish citizens.

How many weren't? Link please.
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 19:07 /  #
Polonius3:
POLES ARE HEROES AND JEW-SAVERS

very true
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 19:10 /  #
In the General Gouvernment about 120,000 people signed the list; in the areas of Poland incorporated into the Reich, like Upper Silesia, there were a lot of Germans, or people with German roots, and they signed en masse. They often didn't have a lot of choice.

In Warsaw you had about 3,000 signed the list. Very low, you risked getting killed by Polish forces.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Aug 19, 09, 19:32 /  #
PlasticPole:
Harry, it's true that Poland (as a nation) did not collaborate with the Nazis and was officially an enemy of theirs even though it would have been far easier to just collaborate with them and become their ally.

Not really, Poland never got the offer in the first place.

TheOther:
Those people stayed in Poland after WW1 for a reason.

Surely not because they felt polish all of a sudden...

Why do you think so many Poles stayed in Prussia or Austria or Russia during the Partitions? Did they became fond of being Prussian or Austrian suddenly?

The Germans stayed because it was still their homes, regardless the rulership...
The limit of bearing a hostile rulership varies. Some could take it, others left or were made to leave.

1jola:
I know, there is a huge outcry now how these poor traitors were booted to Germany after the war.

Traitors? Traitors to whom?
Aren't the "brave" Poles organizing protests and uprisings and manipulations in Prussia against the Germans for Poland not your heroes?

The Germans are hardly traitors since they weren't Poles or loyal to the Polish gov. They made their choice clear. As did the Poles to other times...nothing traiterous about it!
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08
  Aug 19, 09, 19:46 /  #
Jew-Savers? Did you honestly write "Jew-Savers"????

Two thoughts:

Polonius 3's idea of typical Polish daily schedule:

6.30 get up
6.45 breakfast
7.00 save some Jews
7.30 go to work
8.00 start work
10.00 save some Jews during coffee break
.....

Alternately it sounds like a new candy

"I'll have a Mars bar and a roll of Jew-Savers."

page 1 of 14:  1  2  3  4  5  ...  10  11  12  13  14  Next »Go UPtop of page


Similar discussions:

Similar to: POLES ARE HEROES AND JEW-SAVERS
Forgotten heroes - PZL angels
Do Poles accept people from the Polish diaspora as Poles?
What do Poles do for fun?
How often do you think Poles smile :)
Why do Poles come to England?
Poles top of UK class
What Do Poles think of Finns?
Poles in Guangzhou ?
Poles in Bahrain?
Poles in Jordan!?

RUSSIAN TV ACCUSES POLAND OF BEING HITLER ALLY  4 Norwegian soldiers helped SS murdering Civilians in Warsaw 1944

Random: Beautiful Life Translation
Archives / 2009 / History of Poland /posts: 418


This forum is archived (read-only).
Category:
© 2005-2010 PolishForums.com | PolishForums LIVE | Archives | Random | Statistics