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Will Stalin be made a saint?


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celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Jan 2, 09, 08:13 /  #
HatefulBunch397:

It's not possible for one person to control everything and do everything without others consenting in some way.


Yes history has proven that one person can lead a country in this manner, be it Stalin, Hitler or Mao Tse Tung.

HatefulBunch397:

Stalin was the prime figure but he could not have done anything on his own. We have to take a look at ourselves.


What we must look at is how Putin can bring Stalin back from the dead as some great hero and todays Russians forget or not know the full history of this killing machine.

Russia had two choices, continue to hide past crimes and the files or to alter history and make criminal actions acceptible defense actions. Putin knew with Poland's freedom the past would be questioned. This is where altering history comes into play.

HatefulBunch397Threads: -
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  Jan 2, 09, 22:41 /  #
celinski:

Yes history has proven that one person can lead a country in this manner, be it Stalin, Hitler or Mao Tse Tung.

I saw the film Valkyrie on Christmas day and I got an idea of what National Socialism was like. It was not just Hitler, although he had a stable cult of personality in place. Without the support of the entire National Socialist system Hitler would not have been Führer. Claus von Stauffenberg tried to assassinate Hitler but failed. If the Reich wanted a change, after the explosion, they could have easily arrested Hitler after the coup d’état and operation Valkyrie when the reserve army had arrested the SS. That would have been the time to arrest Hitler. It proves that National Socialism was a complex administration that was much bigger than one man.
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Jan 3, 09, 14:46 /  #
HatefulBunch397:

Valkyrie



Hey, how was the movie?
HWPielThreads: 1
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Edited by: HWPiel   Jan 3, 09, 16:05 /  #
I did not see the movie, but I know the truth well... von Stauffenberg was a merciless warrior, and when he was wounded it was reported that he felt jilted by the NAZI system as a whole. He lost a hand, several fingers from the remaining and an eye; after receiving his wounds he became philosophical about the war.

A common question for academic historians is: Where was von Stauffenberg and these other conspirators prior to this attempt on Hitler's life? Yes, they were doing the dirty work, for the party for the homeland.

The people of the Reich, and America, knew of the persecution of the Jewish peoples by the NDSAP/NAZI party, yet nothing was done (i.e., Hitler's officers trying to kill Hitler). Therefore, I assert von Stauffenberg was an opportunist among other angst-ridden officers who suddenly grew some ethics. CVS, and most of Hilter's senior staff, knew the war was lost cause after D-Day... the push to Berlin was a one-way road with small/minor German counter-attacks.

Carol,

As for the movie, I have not read any good reviews. Basically what I've read is that the story-line is predictable and lame, and Cruise does a horrible job acting... he is a movie star and not an actor. Branaugh (sp?) and Wilkerson outshine Cruise who acts like he did in Jerry McGuire.

I had an interest in seeing this movie, but Hollywood has de-NAZI-fied the story... from details of swatikas on the uniforms to actual NAZI philosophy... a kinder and gentler NAZI Army for the entertainment of the masses.

Happy New Year - Ya'll!

Henry
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jan 3, 09, 20:15 /  #
HWPiel:

Where was von Stauffenberg and these other conspirators prior to this attempt on Hitler's life?


He better be apologizing for daring to risk his own life and paying the ultimate price...what a bastard!


HWPiel:

As for the movie, I have not read any good reviews.


Well...maybe you should take a look here: URL

A sure 7,5 out of 10 points by more than 5000 voters already...many seem to be positive impressed!


"A suspenseful and entertaining war thriller"

"Amazing story, decent movie"

"Excellent!"



....the first three comments!


HWPiel:

I had an interest in seeing this movie, but Hollywood has de-NAZI-fied the story... from details of swatikas on the uniforms to actual NAZI philosophy... a kinder and gentler NAZI Army for the entertainment of the masses.


...I'msurethenextjewishHollywoodtearjerkerisjustaroundthenextcorner.. .
Wahldo   Jan 3, 09, 20:34 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

I'msurethenextjewishHollywoodtearjerkerisjustaroundthenextcorner.. .


;- D .. nahh
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
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  Jan 3, 09, 22:35 /  #
It was a good movie. I don't think he suddenly grew some ethics. Von Stauffenberg was injured while in Africa. Maybe he resented being there? I heard some anti Mussolini slurs in the film, too.
Von Stauffenberg and other members of the resistence anticipated a war with the allies and wanted to replace Hitler with Carl Friedrich Goerdeler, a conservative politician and Nazi opponent, as chancellor, hoping to be in a better position to negotiate with the allies.
Where was von Stauffenberg and these other conspirators prior to this attempt on Hitler's life?

They were no different than all the other Nazis until towards the end of the war.
HWPielThreads: 1
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Joined: Oct 10, 08
  Jan 4, 09, 15:00 /  #
Bratwurst Boy,

I am curious, what is the typical German view of the Third Reich in modern Germany?

As for the "next Jewish tear-jerker movie", well all sides have been represented well in the movies; less the NAZI/German side - rightly so in my opinion. After all, what would you make a movie about? How nice and loving Hess was with his family? How the Senior German officers lived a life of pomp while the mainstream German citizen suffered, hungered and died for Hitler's ideology? You get what I am saying.

The Military Channel, in conjunction with BBC after reviewing SS-gruftenstoupf (sp?) records concluded there were 40 attempts on Hitler's life during his reign - like Stalin, Hitler purged his opposition (e.g., Night of the Long Knives). Only one by officers of the Wermacht, this one failed attempt for Hitler's life.

H-Bunch,

Yes, I read it; however, I've read dozens more railing Tom Cruise's horrible performance. Again, he is, no make that was, a five-star movie star, not an actor.

et. al.,

The best Movie I've seen regarding NAZI high command was HBO's production of "Conspiracy" - chock full of brand-name actors. A very good and accurate account of the Wannsee Conference.

H
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jan 4, 09, 15:20 /  #
As far as I know there was much discussion about Tom Cruise playing Stauffenberg, he is such a midget and the real one was quite tall.
But he was determined to play the role, nobody could convince him otherwise!

HWPiel:

I've read dozens more railing Tom Cruise's horrible performance. Again, he is, no make that was, a five-star movie star, not an actor.


I think you read what you want to read...lot's of criticism stems only from
dislike against Tom Cruise and his scientology crap and has not really something
to do with his performance in this movie!

One plus is that the got himself a bunch of world class actors supporting him, that seemed to help..

PS: Btw, nobody forces you to watch a "Nazi"-movie! :)
And most people really prefer to see the viewpoint of an ordinary guy of that time
instead of a Hess or other big shots.
That's why "Das Boot" or "Stalingrad" were so successful..

HWPiel:

A very good and accurate account of the Wannsee Conference.


How would you know? You weren't there....:)
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
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  Jan 4, 09, 15:27 /  #
HWPiel:

Yes, I read it; however, I've read dozens more railing Tom Cruise's horrible performance. Again, he is, no make that was, a five-star movie star, not an actor.

Cruise isn't as popular as he used to be. He didn't do too badly in Valkyrie, but his forehead is too sloped, imo.
Most interesting part of the movie, to me, was the potrayal of General Friedrich Olbricht, head of the General Army Office headquarters at the Bendlerblock in central Berlin, and his involvment in the resistence movement. Olbricht controlled an independent system of communications to reserve units all over Germany. Linking this asset to Tresckow’s resistance group in Army Group Centre created a viable overthrow apparatus. Valkyrie showed how the resistence used this independent system of communications linked Tresckow and the Army Group Centre, and how, in the confusion, the Army Group Centre, at first, let both Wolfsschanze and Tresckow through, ignoring the inconsistencies.
As for Stalin, I am patiently awaiting Hollywood's potrayal of him.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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  Jan 4, 09, 15:31 /  #
HatefulBunch397:

As for Stalin, I am patiently awaiting Hollywood's potrayal of him.


Not as fascinating as Hitler it seems (but there aren't any Mao movies either....)
HWPielThreads: 1
Posts: 83
Joined: Oct 10, 08
  Jan 4, 09, 15:44 /  #
BB,

No, of course I was not at the Wannsee Conference; however the conference was documented by the Germans and those records survived. Das Boot was an OK movie, Stalingrad I have not seen. I have no beef with Tom Cruise, or any religion; I do think he is a 'cult of personality' type guy and a plethora of other actors would have been received much better and given a better performance than Cruise - from what I read in several US mainstream reviews.

I am always up for a good movie, and better yet a great story; the more factual the better. Das Boot was a movie where the directors were good at getting pathos for the sailors on the sub... the very same sailors sinking ships for Hitler's cause... you cannot hide the underlying ideology because of a story. It is sort of feeling sympathy and pathos for Tony Soprano and other characters in make-believe-ville; those guys characters were also bad men that did bad things... a snapshot of their soap-opera lives does not negate the violence they stood for.

- - - -

So, really, what is the take of the modern German regarding the Third Reich? I would be interested in hearing your opinion, as your countrymen (and maybe your family members) wanted to rule the world in a Roman-esque manner believing the tales of Germania perpetuated on fantasy created by Hitler. Well, and a feeling of being punished by the League of Nations post-WW1... and political instability within Germany. I am especially curious since it seems from an American perspective that modern-Germany chose to forget its past and remove anything reminiscent of that period... like Hitler's Bunker - though I believe the arena in Nuremberg is still in existence.

H
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
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  Jan 4, 09, 22:52 /  #
HWPiel:

The best Movie I've seen regarding NAZI high command was HBO's production of "Conspiracy" - chock full of brand-name actors. A very good and accurate account of the Wannsee Conference.

I think I might look for that on HBO, HWPiel. In history classes I tended to avoid WWII in depth because it made me feel uncomfortable, but after sifting through PF posts, I am more interested in learning more about it and analyzing it.

B.B.:
Not as fascinating as Hitler it seems (but there aren't any Mao movies either....)

Hollywood has a lot to cover...
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jan 5, 09, 03:12 /  #
HWPiel:

I am especially curious since it seems from an American perspective that modern-Germany chose to forget its past and remove anything reminiscent of that period


Erm...yes, that's why they are building new memorials all the way even in the center of the capital, that must be it, yup!

HWPiel:

I would be interested in hearing your opinion, as your countrymen (and maybe your family members) wanted to rule the world in a Roman-esque manner


....boy you are so clueless! *snicker*
I wouldn't even know where to start with you!

HWPiel:

the directors were good at getting pathos for the sailors on the sub... the very same sailors sinking ships for Hitler's cause


Well it seems to me you dislike ANY movie told from the german point of view...that way you will stay clueless. Your losss not mine!

HWPiel:

I would be interested in hearing your opinion,


No...you are not! Your posts show that...
Or else you would be interested in such movies!
BorrkaThreads: 49
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Edited by: Borrka   Jan 5, 09, 03:28 /  #
Stauffenberg was a typical chauvinistic Arschloch.
Now created to anti-nazi hero.
I´ve red his letters from occupied Poland.
BELIEVE ME, he was an asshole.

Looking for anti-nazi Germans is like searching for UFO.
WITH EXCEPION for Scholls.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jan 5, 09, 03:33 /  #
Borrka:

Now created to anti-nazi hero.


How so?
Germans made movies about Stauffenberg before...
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
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  Jan 5, 09, 08:28 /  #
I never got the impression Von Stauffenberg was throroughly anti nazi while watching Valkyrie. I thought maybe he sustained an injury that altered his mentality some, making the resistence movement more appealing.
I assume with the name Von Stauffenberg, he was a German aristocrat. Interestingly, Stalin wasn't mentioned once in the film.
HWPielThreads: 1
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  Jan 5, 09, 08:49 /  #
BB,

OK, so educate me... please. What is the stance of the average German towards that piece of history? You alluded that you were ashamed of it in high school - is that the norm? Yet, Borrka infers that all modern-Germans still cling to those ideals.

Apologist memorials can be found throughout history world-wide, some see it as vindication and others as an annoyance. Like any piece of art, we chose to see what we want in it and out of it - movies included ;)

I think you may have missed the point about Story versus Event/Incident/History... I am not anti-German, nor anti-Jewish, nor-anti-Tom Cruise. If I was unclear - sorry.

We can argue all day about Hitler's egotistical plans to build up Berlin bigger than Rome, with grossly ostentatious buildings designed by Speers and Hitler himself, or the paintings of Hitler wearing armor of the 12th century warrior on a horse, or Hitler's obsession with Wagner's operas and classical literature that painted Germany as the master race.

FWIW, I will see the movie when it is on DVD... but I am still curious as to what modern Germans really think and feel about the NAZI-era. I hope you can find Conspiracy on DVD.

Have a good one!

H
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jan 5, 09, 10:07 /  #
HWPiel:

but I am still curious as to what modern Germans really think and feel about the NAZI-era


Ummm....you know that "modern Germans" are a people of about 100 Mill+ (if you count Austrians too).
I doubt I can give you a "one fit's all" roundabout, sorry.

Some think it was not a good idea, some think it had some good arguments but panned out badly (the "Wenn das der Führer wüsste" kind of people), some think it was mostly not a good idea, some think it positive to have great ideas at all (doesn't matter which ones) instead of lazying around....etc...

I wouldn't listen to Borrka about things concerning Germany...:)

HWPiel:

Apologist memorials can be found throughout history world-wide


Really? "Apologist memorials"??? Never heard that one...
And what is the difference between a "Apologist memorial" and a "real" one???

HWPiel:

I hope you can find Conspiracy on DVD.


No need...it runs at least once a year on TV.
I like to watch it if I have time as I am especially interested
in Heydrich (owning biographies).
It's not bad!
BorrkaThreads: 49
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  Jan 5, 09, 11:25 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

I wouldn't listen to Borrka about things concerning Germany...:)


Oh really, Würstel ?
Because I know Germany probaly better than you ?
In addition I´m a native speaker of your language.
Ohne Flax.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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  Jan 5, 09, 11:45 /  #
Borrka:

Because I know Germany probaly better than you ?


Yes....probably...that must be it!
PrinceThreads: 26
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Edited by: Prince   Jan 12, 09, 14:57 /  #

Will Stalin be made a saint?



It is new (old) Russian face ...
sjamThreads: 5
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  Jan 15, 09, 01:48 /  #
HatefulBunch397:
After all, what would you make a movie about?

For me it would be a simple choice:

Captain Witold Pilecki - A true Polish freedom fighter!

The only known volunteer to go into Auschwitz where he carried out his plan to set up the undergroiund resistance movement in the camp. Smuggled reports back to London Poles regarding conditions at the camp and later the fate of Jews. Produced detailed plans for allied bombing of the camp and mass break out (allies declined the plan as too ambitious). Built a radio from smuggled parts in the Auschwitz Hospital block. Escaped from Auschwitz and later took part in fighting during the Wrasaw Rising. After liberation from Marnau POW camp Pilecki enlisted with Anders Army in Italy then volunteering to return to Poland to organise the anti-communist resistance and to set-up intelligence network. Captured, tortured by the Polish UB. Chief prosecutor was himself a fellow former Auschwitz prisoner. Pilecki sentenced to death and excuted in 1948 by the Polish communist regime.
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Jan 15, 09, 07:31 /  #
Prince:
It is new (old) Russian face ...

If this was Germany I do not feel they could bring Hitler back like this.

The Rebirth of the Stalin Cult

Russians are encouraged to learn what Putin considers the truth from the likes of a 40-episode TV series that portrayed Stalin as Russia’s savior. Vladimir Putin acknowledged that Stalin and the Soviet Union may have done some bad things, but nothing essentially different from other powers. He does not pause to acknowledge that few other powers- aside from Maoist China-killed millions in its monstrous prison system, its program of forced slave labor, and its mass deportations. That the Russian archives documenting the truth are now in the hands of the descendants of the old KGB is truly a sad state of affairs. Their hope, obviously, is that removing the actual documentation will serve to erase the truth.


http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=618F88EF-5463-419 5-A112-9B6B453652C6


DtLebowskiThreads: 2
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  Jan 16, 09, 13:14 /  #
To the earlier topic about Stalin's origins. As far as I know Stalin's roots were Georgian and Ossetian. But he totally similarized himself with the Russian people when he had gotten the place for himself that he wanted; the dictator.
PolskaManThreads: 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Jan 3, 09
  Jan 16, 09, 19:37 /  #
On the site it says it going to be online voting,
Ugh im sick of those stupid commies posting everywhere calling their friends comrade and stuff,Any one else agree?
Patrycja19Threads: 79
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 Pictures: 1
  Jan 16, 09, 19:51 /  #
PolskaMan:
Ugh im sick of those stupid commies posting everywhere calling their friends comrade and stuff,Any one else agree?

Im not sick of that, theres far worse I am sick of.. thats not even tipping the iceburg.

but I totally disagree with the stalin being made a saint thing.. what saint in this lifetime
killed people?
PolskaManThreads: 3
Posts: 177
Joined: Jan 3, 09
  Jan 16, 09, 20:04 /  #
Yeah,Theres a huge difference between John Paul the 2nd and Stalin that murdering basterd,He should of died in the battle of Warsaw.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Mar 14, 09, 10:57 /  #
Stalin didn't win but Nevsky did...now I came about this article:

http://www.day.kiev.ua/263857/

...
History text books portray Alexander Nevsky as a hero and protector of Rus. A kitschy and mellow image of the “Saint” Alexander Nevsky was created by the efforts of Russian official-line historians and the Russian Orthodox Church. Yet some Russian historians call Alexander Nevsky a traitor, a butcher of Russia, and even the “Satan” of Russian history. Almost the entire European historical thought adheres to the idea that “it is Alexander’s collaboration with the Tatar Mongols and betrayal of his brothers Andrei and Yaroslav in 1252 that allowed the Golden Horde to impose a yoke on Rus.”

Very few can deny that no other than Alexander Nevsky is to blame for 240-year-long slavery of Great Russians....

Nevsky first, Stalin the mass murderer third...what is this with the Russians?
Or do I miss some important clue here?
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07
Edited by: ConstantineK   Mar 14, 09, 11:54 /  #
One fact is clear. Seeing that Germany is loosing the war under the command of Hitler, german high military establishment was trying to plot against him and his life. These attempts had nothing with true anti-nazi position. It was a convulsive attempt to save Germany from inevitable defeat. Those who tried to do this had idea to ally with western countries against SU. Thus, piano strings were good retaliation for these people

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