Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land?

...Lviv's historic centre has been on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) World Heritage list since 1998. UNESCO gave the following reasons[15] for its selection:

Criterion II: In its urban fabric and its architecture, Lviv is an outstanding example of the fusion of the architectural and artistic traditions of eastern Europe with those of Italy and Germany.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Feb 24, 09, 02:44 / #
I agree with you, Pennboy. Well said.

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Feb 24, 09, 03:01 / #
Nathan: are you the same Nathan from ssc.com?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Feb 24, 09, 03:08 / #
ssc.com? Never heard of it. What is it?

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Feb 24, 09, 04:59 / #
ssc.com = skyscrapercity.com There was a ukrainian canadian from saskatchewan by the name of nathan who posted in the ssc.com forums a couple of years ago when I used to browse the forums. He wrote a lot like you do here.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Feb 25, 09, 01:53 / #
polishcanuck: He wrote a lot like you do here No, I am not him. I stumbled upon this site recently. I am interested in knowing others' thoughts and expressing mine. I think it is of advantage to both sides.

El GamalThreads: 2 Posts: 32 Joined: Jul 1, 07	Oct 8, 09, 00:41 / #
chulpan: To El Gamal: if Ukrainians have permanent complex of minority inferiority chulpan: buy a modern political map of Europe, hang it on the wall, and have a look at that every day - everything on the map within Polish frontier you can call polish, therefore everything within Ukrainian frontier you must call Ukrainian. That's were we stand as civilized modern nations. Tell it better to bandera lovers from western Ukraine (i.e. Kresy) who claim, that half of Malopolska is "ukrainian ethnic land". And please stop to write about civilised nation, as ukrainian politicians and half of country support upa who were slowly cutting people on parts watching how they suffer and laugh at them! Maybe Poland is far from being perfect, but ukraine is down on the bottom of any scale :(

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 8, 09, 01:05 / #
Nathan: Yes, Lviv has a lot of cultural diversity: Armenian, Georgian, Polish , German etc The hell Nathan? Armenian, Georgian?GERMAN? I can off the bat list over 100 historical buildings built by Poles, virtually all of Lwów is built up by Poles with a miserable few buildings erected by Habsburgs and Ruthenians, the only city with more preserved Polish architecture is Kraków itself.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 8, 09, 01:36 / #
Sokrates: The hell Nathan? Armenian, Georgian?GERMAN? grin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Culture ...Lviv's historic centre has been on the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) World Heritage list since 1998. UNESCO gave the following reasons[15] for its selection: Criterion II: In its urban fabric and its architecture, Lviv is an outstanding example of the fusion of the architectural and artistic traditions of eastern Europe with those of Italy and Germany. ....seems to be a nice town....

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,951 Joined: Aug 6, 09	Oct 8, 09, 01:46 / #
Polish and Ukrainian relations ware alwayes difficult as Polish nobility used and abuse Ukrainians for centuries so there was resentment to Poles, if Poland would give rights to Ukarinians made them third nationality in union the history would be diffrent now. WWII wold not happen, the Polish partishion would not happen even the Russian revolution would be not happen but Polish nobility look for personal gain not for good of nation so we had U.P. mordering polish population then we had A.K. mordering ukrainin population, we had stalin starving 20 mil. ukrainians to death we had misery to all nations. We need to put this to past and stop this arguments we live in this word together and history is there to teach us how to not repeat the same mistakes again. it will be funny if earth decided to take the land from all of us then it would not matter who it use to belong.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 8, 09, 01:52 / #
Bratwurst Boy: grin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv#Culture BB we built in accordance to German and Italian schools but these are Polish variations different then what you find in Berlin, if you want to get anal about 10% of Lwów is Baroq which is specifically Polish in style, whatever the style Poles built it all (almost).

George8600Threads: 20 Posts: 1,114 Joined: Feb 19, 09	Oct 9, 09, 15:36 / #
Probably, according to Putin and Medvedev they are top-class thieves. They stole a fourth of the gas Gazprom sends them. lol

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Oct 10, 09, 07:55 / #
Poles might have designed some buildings in L'viv - nothing else. There is no such a thing as "Polish" architecture. Why are you surprised by me mentioning Armenians? The oldest church in Lviv is Armenian Orthodox church (Xlll century if I am not mistaken) that somehow escaped wild hordes of invading Poles in 14th century, when those burnt most of L'viv churches. As to cultural diversity it doesn't mean that you have to build something (or in case with Poles - destroy something) in order to represent cultural diversity. It might mean that people are living, working and participating in the life of the city and at the same time bringing something from their cultural heritage. We are not like some countries 95% catholic mono-national monolith ( no names here ;)- no - we have pretty large diversity, Sokrates.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Oct 10, 09, 17:57 / #
Nathan: Poles might have designed some buildings in L'viv Some? We've been building this city for over half a thousand years, virtually all of Lwóws old town is built by Poles. Nathan: There is no such a thing as "Polish" architecture. Says you, Baroq, Polish reinessaince et cetera, its all over Kraków, Poznań and its all over Lwów. Nathan: The oldest church in Lviv is Armenian Orthodox church (Xlll century if I am not mistaken) I'm sorry Nathan the oldest church in Lwów is "Holy Mather of Snow" and was built in 1340 by German settlers. Nathan: As to cultural diversity it doesn't mean that you have to build something Still more than 90% of surviving buildings were built by Poles over the course of more than 650 years. Nathan: We are not like some countries 95% catholic mono-national monolith ( no names here ;)- no - we have pretty large diversity, Sokrates. Which doesnt change the fact that Poles built Lwów, developed Lwów, that Lwów is the second best preserved Polish city in the world or that it was for over half a millenium one of our greatest cities untill Stalin took it and gave it to Ukraine.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Oct 10, 09, 18:56 / #
My mistake, yes German settlers built Maria Snizhna Church in 1340s. Armenian was built 20 years later. But it isn't the oldest either. There is some evidence that St. John the Baptist church built in 1250 by Ukrainian king Lev for his wife Constance, who was a Hungarian princess. On the other hand, some date it somewhere in the mid-xlv century, so I wouldn't argue too much about it. I don't deny that some Polish imprint is on the city of L'viv (there is not Lwow anywhere in the world as far as I am aware of), but funny claims of 90% etc. are just out of line. Polish occupation of 450 years in the history of a city that celebrated its 753rd anniversiry plus the fact that majority of the buildings were built in 18-20th centuries, when Poland didn't exist, makes the assumptions preposterous. Sokrates: Baroq, Polish reinessaince et cetera Exactly :), rein and roq - Polish invention, no doubt. One important fact - Ukrainians inhabited L'viv long before Polish wild roaming hungry hordes encroached on our lands.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Oct 8, 09, 02:00 / #
...don't want to get anal (yuck) but Lwow seems really pretty...me likes baroque...

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,984 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Oct 10, 09, 19:18 / #
Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? No. Ukraine is not an entity that can act or think of one mind therefore it is not able to be personalized or characterized as an individual. This personalization of nations has got to be the most common form of lazy thinking when it comes to politics and history. Repeat, nations are not people. Get past this hurdle and fruitful honest discussions are soon to follow.

cinek_Threads: - Posts: 8 Joined: Apr 29, 09	Edited by: cinek_ Oct 10, 09, 19:36 / #
Nathan: wild roaming hungry hordes encroached on our lands. lol. hordes ? occupation? did you heard about prince Jerzy II (Юрій II Болеслав Тройденович), Kazimierz Wielki, year 1340 ? anything?

sloThreads: 2 Posts: 85 Joined: Nov 26, 07	Edited by: slo Oct 10, 09, 20:01 / #
Ridiculous topic overall... But if you are asking. Lwow was settled on land of Галицько-Волинське Князівство (Galicia-Volyn Duchy) founded by one of son of Kiev ruler Volodymyr the Great. It was like that starting from 11 or 12 century. Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore. Ukrainians were the same way victims of Russian and Soviet empire as Poles and did not took the land from Poland. Don't blame Ukrainians. Lets live in peace together. ... You using widely broadcasted by Kremlin anti-Ukrainian state propaganda word "stealing" here. Why applying here? Reading to much in Russian?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 10, 09, 20:11 / #
slo: Poles took over the land much later and the area have been populated by Ukrainian language population for all time you can explore. Lets be specific, Lwów was founded in 1256 and Poles conquered it in 1350 from the on Lwów was a Polish city untill 1939 even under Austria it was developed by Poles. So no Poland didnt take over much later, Poland conquered Lwów 94 years after it was founded and it was a Polish city for the next 589 years, we took over a bunch of mud huts and stone houses and built one of the most beatifull cities in the East over the course of half of a millenium. Lets be clear, neither Polish goverment nor Polish general populace wants to take anything from Ukraine, Lwów was Polish now its Ukrainian and we got over it but for Christs sake dont try to make it a historically diverse city because Poles built it, Poles ruled it, it was one of the heartlands of Poland and evidence is present on virtually every street, most of the larger buildings still bear our coats of arms even. slo: Don't blame Ukrainians. We do not, we think of Lwów as historically ours but the goverment and the nation basically respect the current situation and there's no real intention to revise borders.

sloThreads: 2 Posts: 85 Joined: Nov 26, 07	Edited by: slo Oct 10, 09, 20:34 / #
Yes, Sokrates, I can be sympathetic to feelings of Poles toward our Lviv/Lwow. Many Ukrainians respect those feelings as soon we are good friends, as now we are.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Oct 10, 09, 20:49 / #
Nathan's position reminds me of an old history teacher of mine who was unable to accept any positive German influences in the Poland's past. His family suffered a lot during the ww2 at hands of Nazis. It's obvious to anybody with some common sense that modern European civilization "moved" from the ex-Roman Empire and its followers like Italy, Germany to the East. The impact of the German colonization, German tradesmen, farmers, artist etc.etc.was enormous in medieval Poland. Not the proto-nazi invention, so called "Kulturträger" but thousands of skilled carpenters, farmers, monks coming from Germany. But not for him. This poor guy deeply believed that all Germans have done in the East were mass killings and robbery - he was ready to acknowledge the fundamental Martians' contribution to the Polish culture but never the German one. Same way Nathan is trying to convince us that Polish nobles spent over 400 years destroying Ukrainian cities and villages (their property BTW) and ruining local farming (their property as well). Poles made 50% of Lviv population (census 1931) but of course it were Ukrainians (16%) who developed the city, its culture and science. To make a long story short : today its Ukrainian Lviv and let it be. But to deny its Polish past the way Nathan is doing that means creating new myths. This time not Polish or Russian myths. Ukrainian pure.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Oct 10, 09, 23:33 / #
Borrka: Ukrainian pure Nathans typical fascistic bull! Borrka: today its Ukrainian Lviv. Correct ! Borrka: and let it be. NO no no ******* way buster!# give away whats yours, Lwów doesn't belong to you....so don't give it away! Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 11, 09, 00:35 / #
Ironside: give away whats yours, Lwów doesn't belong to you....so don't give it away! Luckily you dont represent the views of the majority in Poland.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Oct 11, 09, 00:42 / #
Sokrates: Luckily you dont represent the views of the majority in Poland. if you are correct, rather sadly:p But I'm confident that you are not right and given right cirrcumstances most people soundly will agree with me. BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland!

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Oct 11, 09, 00:51 / #
Ironside: BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland! Wow, so simple. :):):):):):) Good luck in bringing Lvov back to Poland. :):):):):):)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Oct 11, 09, 00:56 / #
pawian: Wow, so simple. :):) banana? its your lucky day ...... take it and go gallop on your fours as good pawians do ...... watch out for baobabs on the savanna plateau ....you ....baboon :P pawian: BY the way, I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland! I think that Lwów should simply belong to Poland! Wow you are coming to your senses ....happy days for the pawians family ..

ArienThreads: 6 Posts: 1,604 Joined: Oct 20, 08	Edited by: Arien Oct 11, 09, 01:00 / #
Chenzo: Did Ukraine really "steal" Polish land? No they didn't. Today, Ukraine is Ukraine, just like Poland is Poland. (I mean, the Dutch could complain about Belgium and Luxembourg stealing our land aswell?) It's in the past, move on. National boarders aren't even important anymore, because it's all European soil now.. :) Or will be!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 11, 09, 02:14 / #
Ironside: But I'm confident that you are not right There was a poll done on Onet, 71% of Poles thought Lwów was historically Polish but respected its current place in Ukraine so yeah you're definitely a minority.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Oct 11, 09, 02:23 / #
Sokrates: poll done pols shmols

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Oct 11, 09, 05:00 / #
Borrka: Poles made 50% of Lviv population (census 1931) I don't argue, but 90% of L'viv architecture - give me a break. Borrka: today its Ukrainian Lviv and let it be. But to deny its Polish past the way Nathan is doing that means creating new myths. I don't deny Polish input in Ukrainian city. I just don't feel like tolerating following expressions: Sokrates: Lwów was Polish now its Ukrainian and we got over it No, it was Ukrainian, it was built by Ukrainian king, occupied by Poles and now it is back where it always belonged. This is all I wanted to say. When there is a talk with Germans, you dig some stone from Gdansk harbor in 990s set by Mieszko l just to prove that it was Polish. So be kind to acknowledge historical fact when we are talking about L'viv. Again, I don't deny Polish impact on L'viv architecture, but, please, don't overblow it, Sokrates, especially when you "got over it for Christ sake" ; ) Regards to all.