UPRISING PREVENTED STALIN'S TAKE-OVER OF GERMANY?

...Chwalba shows that there was no master demolition plan, only standard military precautions for blowing up bridges when retreating (and the Germans did manage to blow up the bridges over the Vistula, although not until the Soviets had already crossed some of them). The Red Army spared the city any destructive artillery shelling, but there was no need for such measures with the Germans already in full flight. ..

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Aug 2, 09, 10:39 / #
A Prof. Roszkowski, who has written extensively on WW2, has made an interesting point. Were it not for the Warsaw Uprsiing, in those 2 months the Red Army would have taken all of Germany. While the stood idly by in Praga, the western Allies landed in Germany and eventually made it to the Elbe.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Aug 2, 09, 11:04 / #
So the Poles let themselves to be slaughtered by Nazis only to save German lands from Soviet occupation? :) It means that Poles and Germans fighting in Warsaw were not only enemies but also allies. PiS propagandists by all means want to proof that this uprising had some sense (and monopolize all anniversaries to increase their popularity) and thus coming out with such comical thesis.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 2, 09, 11:15 / #
lesser: So the Poles let themselves to be slaughtered by Nazis only to save German lands from Soviet occupation? :) Nice! :)

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Aug 2, 09, 11:50 / #
Polonius3: While the stood idly by in Praga, the western Allies landed in Germany and eventually made it to the Elbe. I believe there is some merit to the Soviets resting and refitting outside of Warsaw in late summer/fall of 1944. Certainly, the Soviets enjoyed having the Nazis do their dirty work for them. I do not believe the other allies would sit idly by and allow the Soviets to take all of Germany.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Aug 2, 09, 12:04 / #
Babinich: I do not believe the other allies would sit idly by and allow the Soviets to take all of Germany. It should be reminded that in negotiation process they managed to take over Soviet occupied Austria.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Aug 2, 09, 12:17 / #
lesser: It should be reminded that in negotiation process they managed to take over Soviet occupied Austria. Germany is not Austria.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Moderator Aug 2, 09, 12:29 / #
Babinich: Germany is not Austria. Since the Anschluß it was...only to be broken up after the defeat. Troops arrive in Vienna...what a happy crowd:

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Aug 2, 09, 12:37 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Since the Anschluß it was...only to be broken up after the defeat. Ok, lets try it this way... Austria is not Germany regardless of a Wehrmacht enforced occupation. BB... Do you have any pictures of those same people after WWII?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 2, 09, 12:38 / #
Babinich: Austria is not Germany regardless of a Wehrmacht enforced occupation. Occupation??? Some of the best/worst Nazis were Austrians! Alois Brunner, Odilo Globocnik, Amon Göth, Aribert Heim, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Franz Stangl etc., just to name a few. In case you didn't know...the Treaty of Versailles forbid a unifying of Germany with Austria...a cause of much grief, one of many! ...When Austria-Hungary broke up in 1918, many German-speaking Austrians hoped to join with Germany in the realignment of Europe, but the Treaty of Versailles (1919) and the Treaty of Saint-Germain of 1919 explicitly vetoed the inclusion of Austria within a German state, because France and the UK feared the power of a larger Germany, and had already begun to disempower the current one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss ...On the morning of 12 March, the 8th Army of the German Wehrmacht crossed the German-Austrian border. They did not face resistance by the Austrian Army—on the contrary, the German troops were greeted by cheering Austrians with Hitler salutes, Nazi flags and flowers. Because of this the Nazi invasion is also called the Blumenkrieg (war of flowers)... Babinich: Do you have any pictures of those same people after WWII? Nope, do you?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 2, 09, 13:10 / #
PS: Lot's of austrians in the Wehrmacht invading Poland in '39 too...do you think you could have told the difference??? Kurt Waldheim anybody?

OgorkiThreads: - Posts: 131 Joined: Aug 4, 08	Aug 2, 09, 19:56 / #
lesser: PiS propagandists by all means want to proof that this uprising had some sense It's called honour and integrity - to be prepared to stand up in the face of adversity and do what is right in the understanding that there are others who appear to share these same ideals and support the initiative. To not simply give up - sell out - to fight their own fight without expecting others to bail them out - to take betrayal like a man - to emerge proud after 50 years of extended scum sucking occupation and be able to say I DID NOT GIVE UP. I fought alone and my spirit triumphed. And that I owe to noone. I can live with that. The first person to commit suicide off the Stalin Tower in Warsaw was a French man who saw it a more honorable place to die than the Eiffel Tower. It will not surprise me if you do not understand what I am saying here. Grzegorz_: Dude is a damn idiot. Soviets stopped their offensive for almost half a year, Uprising was definately not the major reason for that. If there was no uprising, the soviets would have pounded warsaw to the ground and killed many people anyway to get rid of the Germans. Either way Warsaw and it's people were doomed. The Poles prefered to do it their way. The honorable way.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Aug 2, 09, 23:39 / #
Ogorki: It's called honour I would like to know your estimation. How many death Polish citizens is worth your honour? Your post contain everything what good leader should not have. Such people run the state and the state doesn't have any honour. Good leadership must foresight whether military action is justified. They are responsible for millions of people, so they cannot afford your honor! Ogorki: If there was no uprising, the soviets would have pounded warsaw to the ground and killed many people anyway to get rid of the Germans. Either way Warsaw and it's people were doomed. Nonsensical speculations. We don't even know whether the Germans would defend their positions in Warsaw.

firkegaardThreads: - Posts: 16 Joined: Mar 30, 09	Aug 3, 09, 09:10 / #
The Warsaw Uprising was the result of stupidity of Polish generals and Polish London government. They wanted to see how will the soviets react to the liberation of Warsaw - Polands capital. That test cost around 220 000 to loose their lives, 90% of whom were civilians. 60% of the city was destroyed. And the uprising was a failure. Poland gained nothing with this sacrifice.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 3, 09, 12:25 / #
Why so much of your good will for the Austrians Babinich? No question about their "collective conscience" as they fighted all the time between and alongside german troops? Austrians between the worst Nazi mass murderers (not to mention Hitler being an Austrian), between the most fanatical ? How come? Babinich: Hitler made sure a national vote never happened. If you mean the plebiscite about the Anschluß: There was one at the April 10, 1938...

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Aug 2, 09, 13:13 / #
Polonius3: Were it not for the Warsaw Uprsiing, in those 2 months the Red Army would have taken all of Germany. Dude is a damn idiot. Soviets stopped their offensive for almost half a year, Uprising was definately not the major reason for that. Babinich: Austria is not Germany regardless of a Wehrmacht enforced occupation. lol... Austria had per capita more NSDAP members than any other region of 3rd Reich.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Aug 2, 09, 15:06 / #
No, this was not anyone's intention, it just turned out that way. The hope was the British airdrops would supply the insurgents until Soviet reinforcements arrived and were greeted by represntatives of the AK command, the true gospodarze (hosts) of the city.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Aug 3, 09, 11:48 / #
Babinich: Austria is not Germany regardless of a Wehrmacht enforced occupation. Grzegorz_: lol... Austria had per capita more NSDAP members than any other region of 3rd Reich. Chancellor Schuschnigg expected the Austrians people, through a plebiscite, to oppose a union with Germany. Hitler made sure a national vote never happened. Back to the original thread... Warsaw Uprising or not the Soviets were not getting to the border of France.

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Aug 3, 09, 13:20 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Alois Brunner, Odilo Globocnik, Amon Göth, Aribert Heim, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Arthur Seyss-Inquart, Franz Stangl etc., just to name a few. Adolf Hitler, to name another. firkegaard: 60% of the city was destroyed. Yeah, well. It turns out that it was all going to be trashed with the German retreat, anyway.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Aug 3, 09, 14:01 / #
Pan Kazimierz: firkegaard: 60% of the city was destroyed. Yeah, well. It turns out that it was all going to be trashed with the German retreat, anyway. and quite probably mass extermination of the population has been also planned - vide KL Warschau where an estimate of 200 000 Polish Varsovians perished during the war (up until the Uprising) - the Germans ordered 100 000 men to summon to trench digging campaign - it is quite easy to imagine they would all perish afterwards - see also how the Germans mined and prepared Cracow to be devastated - thanks this time to the cooperation of the Soviets with the AK it has been prevented

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 3, 09, 14:22 / #
gumishu: see also how the Germans mined and prepared Cracow to be devastated - thanks this time to the cooperation of the Soviets with the AK it has been prevented Oh please...the Soviets prevented a devastation??? The Wehrmacht slugged it out with the Red Army...the whole battlefield was to be devastated.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Aug 3, 09, 14:39 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oh please...the Soviets prevented a devastation??? The Wehrmacht slugged it out with the Red Army...the whole battlefield was to be devastated. it just proves you know literally nothing about the subject

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 3, 09, 14:42 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oh please...the Soviets prevented a devastation??? Yes they did, to be specific Ivan Konev did. Bratwurst Boy: the whole battlefield was to be devastated. Sorry no, the German strategy was to blow up Polish cities because they were Polish, it had nothing to do with war.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 3, 09, 15:00 / #
Sokrates: Sorry no, the German strategy was to blow up Polish cities because they were Polish, Yeah sure....they had nothing better to do than wasting soldiers and hardware on not war relevant towns instead of the enemy army....After all they had so much of it in '44, right? Suuuuure! Again the "it's always about us Poles"-syndrome! :) Are the polish history school lessons at work here again? Let me tell you, they suck...

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 3, 09, 15:01 / #
UPRISING PREVENTED STALIN'S TAKE-OVER OF GERMANY? who care this way or another Turks and Arabs would take-over Germany

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 3, 09, 15:05 / #
Crow: this way or another Turks and Arabs would take-over Germany Are you speaking from experience Kosovo-Crowie??? :) The last time Germany was occupied by Turks for 500 years was...well...lemme think...now when was that...remind me please. Oh and the last time Germany lost core country to muslims was...hmmm...help me out here Crowie...when was that again? Oh and that is for you gumishu, our board idiot: http://letters.krakow.pl/books/cracow_german_occupation.html ...Chwalba shows that there was no master demolition plan, only standard military precautions for blowing up bridges when retreating (and the Germans did manage to blow up the bridges over the Vistula, although not until the Soviets had already crossed some of them). The Red Army spared the city any destructive artillery shelling, but there was no need for such measures with the Germans already in full flight. ..

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 3, 09, 15:13 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Yeah sure.... Oh Germans had this thing about destroying historical cities, they didnt always succeed but they tried, Paris was supposed to go Warsaw way too. Bratwurst Boy: they had nothing better to do than wasting soldiers and hardware on not war relevant towns instead of the enemy army.... Apparently, they've wasted a mountain of explosives on Warsaw, they wanted to demolish Moscow too. Bratwurst Boy: Again the "it's all about us Poles"-syndrome! :) No its not, its not us Poles who look through shyt stained glasses, its you, whenever you hear something bad its "Poles at it again" but the truth is there's not much positive to say about WW2 Germany on any field. As for treatment of cultural and historical sites they were just as bad as the Russians. Bratwurst Boy: Are the polish history school lessons at work here again? Sorry i'm 26 when i went to school it was a healthy few years after communist rubbish stopped. The fact is that when retreating your soldiers demolished what they could in often absolutely mindless acts.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 3, 09, 15:16 / #
Okay...just in case you missed it the first time: http://letters.krakow.pl/books/cracow_german_occupation.html ...Chwalba shows that there was no master demolition plan, only standard military precautions for blowing up bridges when retreating (and the Germans did manage to blow up the bridges over the Vistula, although not until the Soviets had already crossed some of them). The Red Army spared the city any destructive artillery shelling, but there was no need for such measures with the Germans already in full flight. .. Sokrates: The fact is that when retreating your soldiers demolished what they could in often absolutely mindless acts. Maybe other armies did! The Wehrmacht was much to professional for it...the soldiers had to account for every bullet (the more so as everything got scarce at the end) Wasting them on mindless, petty tantrum actions would had been punishable! Sokrates: but the truth is there's not much positive to say about WW2 Germany on any field. Not when you are on the receiving end, I agree!;) (On the other hand in Max Hasting's "Armageddon" you can read about the respect the allied soldiers had for their german foe)

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Aug 3, 09, 15:30 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Maybe other armies did! The Wehrmacht was much to professional for it...the soldiers had to account for every bullet (the more so as everything got scarce at the end) Wasting them on mindless, petty tantrum actions would had been punishable! well then why did Germans blow up Łazienki Palace and planned to do the same with the Wilanów palace in Warsaw ???

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 3, 09, 15:37 / #
gumishu: well then why did Germans blow up Łazienki Palace and planned to do the same with the Wilanów palace in Warsaw ??? I've never even heard of them...sorry Could it be because there was a war?

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 3, 09, 15:44 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Are you speaking from experience Kosovo-Crowie??? :) yes and no it is more judged by megatrends in Germany Bratwurst Boy: occupied by Turks for 500 years if you reffer on Turkish occupation over Balkan Serbs, you are wrong Kobasice on Balkan, some Serbian regions never were ruled by Turks, some were ruled for 180 years, some for 350 and Kosovo Serbs were ruled 450 years. So, its far from 500 years But what is important.... Serbs resisted and resist to occupation and islamization. On the other side, Germany is bastion of islamization in Europe. i found it as very degeneric behavior of German state