World War II: Behind Closed Doors; Stalin, The Nazis and The West.

red_devil:

Russia wasn't prepared militarily for a fight with Germany in 1939 - Stalin had just completed his Great Purge on the Russian officer class so his forces were well below strength. Any alliance between Poland and Russia would have enraged Germany and precipitated an earlier eastern invasion

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 19:58 / #
Sokrates: You wanted what was our country, our freedom, our liberties? Don't overestimate you! Hitler grew big on the promises to get back what was seen as german, what was still populated by Germans, to right the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles. And not to take polish country, freedom or liberty! The main fight was from the beginning against the Bolshevism in Russia. Poland was on the way. Poland didn't had to become an enemy. There was no indoctrination of the german people against Poles (beside the usual war propaganda). There is this famous photo of Hitler at Pilsudskis funeral. Poland became the gathering ground for the eventual attack at the main enemy, that was kind of unavoidable...it could have been in a different manner if Poland had been less nationalistic, less chauvinistic and more into real politik! (And had not trusted GB and France so much)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 19:59 / #
red_devil: Russia wasn't prepared militarily for a fight with Germany in 1939 - Stalin had just completed his Great Purge on the Russian officer class so his forces were well below strength. Any alliance between Poland and Russia would have enraged Germany and precipitated an earlier eastern invasion Actually Russia was ready to swamp Germany in 1939, it was more of Stalin wanting Germany and the West to bleed each other out.

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:01 / #
Sokrates: Actually Russia was ready to swamp Germany in 1939, it was more of Stalin wanting Germany and the West to bleed each other out. I think you'll find that Stalinwas buying for time because he knew what Hitler's long-term intentions were. When Hitler invaded the following year, it was because he knew that Stalin was now ready to do the same.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:03 / #
red_devil: I think you'll find that Stalinwas buying for time because he knew what Hitler's long-term intentions were. When Hitler invaded the following year, it was because he knew that Stalin was now ready to do the same. Hitler invaded two years later :)

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:04 / #
Sokrates: Actually Russia was ready to swamp Germany in 1939 Yes, they were completely ready. Which is why they had such success when attacking Finland in late '39.

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:05 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Poland became the gathering ground for the eventual attack at the main enemy...it could have been different if Poland had been less nationalistic, chauvinistic and more into real politik! So you're saying the Polish should have just opened the doors to the Fascists and created a kind of Vichy government like the French? A minute ago you were blaming the British for the invasion. Now you seem to be blaming the 'nationalistic, chauvinistic' Polish.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:10 / #
red_devil: So you're saying the Polish should have just opened the doors to the Fascists and created a kind of Vichy government like the French? For example...it would have been one possibility. As I said, EVERYTHING Warsaw could have tried would have been better as that what later really happened. It couldn't get worse than that! red_devil: A minute ago you were blaming the British for the invasion. Now you seem to be blaming the 'nationalistic, chauvinistic' Polish. Did I?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:12 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Hitler grew big on the promises to get back what was seen as german, what was still populated by Germans, to right the wrongs of the Treaty of Versailles. And not to take polish country, freedom or liberty! To be specific, most of the lands that "were German" were initially Polish taken over by partitioning Germans with the exception of Wrocław which can at best be called international. You keep parroting the Treaty of Versailles ignoring facts that Poznań and other lands were Polish and you took it over via partitioning so you were just re-invading but its much more comfortable to just call something you conquered "German". This gotten over with yes Hitler wanted what was rightfully ours and what you conquered and 1939 was simply an attempt at reconquering. Bratwurst Boy: And not to take polish country, freedom or liberty! Well the lands he invaded were Polish and not only by treaty of Verseilles but historically, you just took them via war when you were still a kingdom so whats your point? Our land, our freedom (because being murdered in camps and occupied you're definitely not free). Bratwurst Boy: if Poland had been less nationalistic, less chauvinistic and more into real politik! What the fuk? I wouldnt expect you to be a nazi apologetist, you're saying that Hitler and your nazi grandpa invaded us and gassed millions because we were "chauvinistic"? Your entire reasoning is unbelievably fvcked up.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:15 / #
Sokrates: you're saying that Hitler and your nazi grandpa invaded us and gassed millions because we were "chauvinistic"? I was saying, bought neutrality or even an alliance would had been possible... Sokrates: Your entire reasoning is unbelievably fvcked up. Well...we have seen what the polish way of rational thinking got them, didn't we. EVERYTHING else would had been better for your people Sokrates, EVERYTHING! But for that it would had been needed to accept realities and the will to compromises...something Poles have difficulties with even today! :) The destruction and the gassing came as you whipped yourself up for fighting the Nazis as they were on top. Trusting Brits and French to pull your nuts out of the fire when they would come after you to test your big mouths! Quote: "In Berlin in one week" Smigly: "Germany can't avoid war even if she wanted to!" History is history!

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:18 / #
Sokrates: To be specific, most of the lands that "were German" were initially Polish taken over by partitioning Germans with the exception of Wrocław which can at best be called international. Stettin, Kolberg, Stolp, I could go on but you know you can't hope to debate with me, you stand no chance so you'll just give up and whine. How Polish!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 19, 09, 20:29 / #
Sokrates: Wait, your nation murdered newborn children, pregnant women and you're teaching us about rational thinking? You're actually writing all that and believe it? Yes, I believe it. There wasn't even an alliance needed, only neutrality and compromises on the disputed territories. Everything was denied categorically by Warsaw, fully believing their strong super power friends would be enough. The murdering of newborn children and pregnant women came later and was a consequence of that! Sokrates: Waiiit so its our fault that we didnt want to give you over our land without a fight? It wasn't your land and the people definitely said what they wanted. Being polish was it not! Sokrates: We got you mad and you decided to wipe us out? You overestimate yourself again! You were never the "main course". You played a role in the thinking about how to handle Russia best, that's all... The polish big mouth never changed! :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:34 / #
Sokrates: Wait you actually say that was you were doing was fair and allright? Where did I say that? Hitler was a murdering bastards, so were the Nazis! No doubt about that. But when I neighbour such a mad, murdering bastard with the best army on the continent I would really think twice about how to handle it. Such provocations "In Berlin in one week" would I surely not spout! Such a dire position between two juggernauts with an impending war between them demands smart rational heads - real politik to ensure the survival of your people. Everything your government didn't! Instead you agonized, spouted abuse and denied any negotiations...totally overestimating yourself! (Again!)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:36 / #
red_devil: Yeah but your Air Force sucked against the British and Polish pilots! Not in Russia! :) red_devil: Oh, so I suppose we should hand Britain back to the Celtic Irish and all of the Mediterranean to the Italians? Jesus, conquest happens - it's the way of the world. Saying that this land or that land belongs to x country or y makes you sound like an Arab! Well...if you are white it is much more likely that your ancestors are Germans! Lets hug cousin!!! :):);)

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:37 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Not in Russia! :) Like that surprises me. The Russian army relies on strength instead of true grit and determination. Their size has always meant that they are weak in small numbers.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:23 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Well...we have seen what the polish way of rational thinking got them, didn't we. Wait, your nation murdered newborn children, pregnant women and you're teaching us about rational thinking? You're actually writing all that and believe it? Bratwurst Boy: The destruction and the gassing came as you whipped yourself up for fighting the Nazis as they were on top. Waiiit so its our fault that we didnt want to give you over our land without a fight? We got you mad and you decided to wipe us out? Why didnt we hold such a view after Prussia sided with Sweden? Oh yeah because we're normal human beings? Bratwurst Boy: Trusting Brits and French to pull your nuts out of the fire when they would come after you to test your big mouths! Our mouths would seem a lot bigger if not for 800k Russians pouring in from the East besides who do you think we are to give away chunks of our country, the French?

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:26 / #
Bratwurst Boy: For example...it would have been one possibility. As I said, EVERYTHING Warsaw could have tried would have been better as that what later really happened. It couldn't get worse than that! Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Bratwurst Boy: Did I? You said: 'It would have been logical for Warsaw to soften their hard stance against Germany and go into negotiations or look for allies elsewhere, for example Russia without these promises!' - by this I understand that Poland would have been more favourable to Germany without Britain's backing? This hardly squares with the nationalistic fervor you mention. Sokrates: Your entire reasoning is unbelievably fvcked up. Good to know that it wasn't just me who found the 'chauvanistic' theory quite sick.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:31 / #
Bratwurst Boy: The murdering of newborn children and pregnant women came later and was a consequence of that! Wait you actually say that was you were doing was fair and allright? Well i know you do i mean your gramps was there, so would you in those times. Bratwurst Boy: The polish big mouth never changed! :) Neither did your barbarism, approving of genocide and concentration camps, good job captain Goebbels.

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:33 / #
Bratwurst Boy: It wasn't your land and the people definitely said what they wanted. Oh, so I suppose we should hand Britain back to the Celtic Irish and all of the Mediterranean to the Italians? Jesus, conquest happens - it's the way of the world. Saying that this land or that land belongs to x country or y makes you sound like an Arab!

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:35 / #
Bratwurst Boy: best army on the continent Yeah but your Air Force sucked against the British and Polish pilots!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:39 / #
red_devil: Their size has always meant that they are weak in small numbers. But numbers are a quality on their own! You can kill only so much of them...

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:42 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Well...if you are white it is much more likely that your ancestors are Germans! Don't forget the Romans were white Aryans and were in Britain for 300 years. Their bloodline changed during the Moorish occupations of the Middle Ages. Bratwurst Boy: But size is a quality in it's own! You can kill only so much of them... Having more isn't a quality - it's just a capability. India has a huge army but one-on-one Britain would walk all over them. So would Germany for that matter.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:44 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Hitler was a murdering bastards, so were the Nazis! No doubt about that. But gassing was a consequnce of Poland not obediently bending over? This car has a very pale whiting color Its white? I never said that! :) red_devil: Like that surprises me. The Russian army relies on strength instead of true grit and determination Nowdays it mostly relies on not fighting a war.

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:46 / #
Sokrates: Nowdays it mostly relies on not fighting a war. And if they do fight then it is against easy opposition like Georgia. But Russia is rising in confidence and needs to be watched like a hawk. Those Russian generals are crazy bastards!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 19, 09, 20:49 / #
red_devil: But Russia is rising in confidence And decreasing in funds and integrity :) red_devil: and needs to be watched like a hawk. Those Russian generals are crazy bastards! Not really no, Russia has major economy issues already and since military is a political class in itself Russia will never decrease the numbers.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:51 / #
Sokrates: But gassing was a consequnce of Poland not obediently bending over? This car has a very pale whiting color Its white? I never said that! It was a consequence of not bending over to Hitler, yes! From a possible neutral or even maybe reluctant ally against Soviet Russia you became an enemy free for Himmlers nightmarish fantasies and all what it included. (Of course you could have chosen an alliance with Russia too...) PS: There had been many european countries able to keep their neutrality or only giving so much as to stay outside the bruhaha and not be seen as enemies of the Nazis...

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Edited by: red_devil Jun 19, 09, 20:55 / #
Sokrates: Russia will never decrease the numbers. Didn't say they would. Quite the opposite. But Russia might lash out to take attention away from the economic issues. Bratwurst Boy: It was a consequence of not bending over to Hitler, yes! From a possible neutral or even maybe reluctant ally against Soviet Russia you became an enemy free for Himmlers nightmarish fantasies and all what it entails. What planet are you living on? Really?! And what if this Germany-Polish alliance would have lost against Russia? Would Poland exist today? You are an armchair general who is great when it comes to hindsight but will never be proven wrong as it will never happen. Sweden (neutral) was never in anyones way. Hence ability to stay neutral.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Jun 19, 09, 20:56 / #
One must not make a deal with the devil.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 19, 09, 20:57 / #
red_devil: You are an armchair general who is great when it comes to hindsight but will never be proven wrong as it will never happen. Aren't we all? That's what such a board is for Red! :) I doubt either you, me or Sokrates or anybody else has the "absolute wisdom" to say what would had happened if...we can only speculate... You are new here, aren't you? :)

red_devilThreads: 1 Posts: 40 Joined: Jun 12, 09	Edited by: red_devil Jun 19, 09, 20:59 / #
Bratwurst Boy: That's what such a board is for Red! :) But you don't seem to be using logic. You must be able to support your statements. Anyway, I think the Polish would rather die then fight alongside fascists (or communists for that matter). Yes, I'm new. What difference does that make? You are not making any sense with your posts.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 19, 09, 21:01 / #
red_devil: But you don't seem to be using logic. Well...what can I say! red_devil: Anyway, I think the Polish would rather die then fight alongside fascists (or communists for that matter). And dying they did!