World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World

Quoting: Wroclaw Boy

The official death toll55,000,000 miliratry and civiiliangermany 7,000,000china 6,000,000jews 6,000,000japan 3,000,000yugoslowia 1,300,000france 600,000italy 600,000GB 400,000US 320,000Russia20,000,000-30,000,000 or 20% of its population.

Quoting: southern

The only chance for Poland to avoid occupation was to try alliance with Soviet Union forcing Great Britain and France get into alliance with Soviets who would guarantee intervention in case of german invasion to Poland.however the Poles saw the Soviets as the devil and did not want them to enter their land.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 11:20 / #
World War II: what a tragic story for the World but especially Poland I personally feel extremely sorry for the Poles for everything they endured during WWII. However we the Brits stood up and fought an Evil which was unparalleled in recent history only to be despised later on. Was this a direct result of the big three's negotiations "Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin". Or just common hate of a nation which some deemed superior? Poland in my opinion was left at the mercy of the Russian empire as the other two powers did not really have a choice short of extended war! Hind sight is a wonderful thing, I wonder.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Nov 16, 07, 11:28 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw Boy we the Brits stood up and fought an Evil which was unparalelled in recent history only to be despised later on. Poles did too. The difference between the two was the Poland received no (as in zero) help from its allies when it was attacked, while Britain received lots form hers, including from Poles. I'm not sure whether Poles in general despise Brits for WW2. For one, it's been a long time ago, and then it's more about a sense of disappointment than hatred.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 12:37 / #
Quoting: z_darius Poles did too. The difference between the two was the Poland received no (as in zero) help from its allies when it was attacked, while Britain received lots form hers, including from Poles. Thats because you were occupied, although not unwilling to fight

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Nov 16, 07, 12:44 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw Boy Thats because you were occupied Agreement of Mutual Assistance Between the United Kingdom and Poland: ARTICLE I. Should one of the Contracting Parties become engaged in hostilities with a European Power in consequence of aggression by the latter against that Contracting Party, the other Contracting Party will at once give the Contracting Party engaged in hostilities all the support and assistance in its power. Could you list some of the support and assistance Poland received form UK in September of 1939? Quoting: Wroclaw Boy although not unwilling to fight Is this a joke?

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 12:46 / #
Quoting: z_darius Poles did too. The difference between the two was the Poland received no (as in zero) help from its allies when it was attacked, while Britain received lots form hers, including from Poles. I know, I would like to highlight the fact that the Polish Squadron 303 "fighter command" was one of the best ariel fighter units during the battle of Britian with a significant amount of confiremd kills inline with the most succesfull British squadron. Those Polish chaps knew how to fly and manouver aeroplanes in order to kill Germans "quote General Smith" Fighter Command.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 12:49 / #
Quoting: z_darius Could you list some of the support and assistance Poland received form UK in September of 1939? Could you please list some of the assistance that you have liked to recieve from the UK at that time. Anything that would have made a difference short of a nuclear bomb which of course was not available.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 12:50 / #
Quoting: z_darius Is this a joke? No its not a joke

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 16, 07, 12:52 / #
Poland's fate was determined in Yalta between Stalin and Churchill.Stalin insisted that Poland was inportant for strategic reasons to Soviet Union.Churchill tried but he could not do anything since polish uprising in August-Oktober 1944 was defeated by german troops and soviet roops were already in Poland.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 12:58 / #
Quoting: z_darius Poles did too. The difference between the two was the Poland received no (as in zero) help from its allies when it was attacked, while Britain received lots form hers, including from Poles. I know darius, which is why i feel Poland shoud really be dealt the best hand in EU integration. I genuinely feel bad for the short hand that Poland pulled in the whole after WWII business, Churchill bearing in mind that the invasion of Poland was the whole reason we (and the World ) went to war in the first place should have really struck a harder bargain. Lets see what the future brings hey!!

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Nov 16, 07, 12:59 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw Boy Could you please list some of the assistance that you have liked to recieve from the UK at that time. Like... military assistance? Like ... an ttack against Germany in the West to take some of the heat of Polish forces? Most German forces were in the East at the time. What Hitler hoped for, and what Stalin was waiting for till September 17th was exactly what Brits did - nothing. Quoting: Wroclaw Boy No its not a joke Poles were the 4th largest army in Europe during WW2 and you write that Poles were not unwilling to fight?

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:05 / #
Foreigner seem to forget that the British Navy was the most powerful in the world at the time. Our navy was a massive herdle for the Germans to overcome. Ok they beat us on land at first thats just one stage of battle. If a boxer has trained to fight for two years and is fighting a boxer who has trained for two months statistically who should win. GERMANY vs ENGLAND But we did not lose the battle of the air. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN going out to all you collonisnts.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:13 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw Boy 4th Largest army!!!! you fell in the 1st quickest time. nope.. the slugs folded faster. we at least fought the krauts.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:48 / #
What to me is amazing is wwll how major powers went after "Unarmed" Polish and killed or put in concentration camps. Lets see eastern Poland, WW1's front line top men in (farmers) reserve. No guns as they were not needed. Feb. 1940, Wake them up in the middle of the night take them and wife, children at GUN point to box cars for slave labor in Siberia. What about the ones not sent to Siberia. Middle of the night SS Ukraine can brutly massacre, barbaric torture and loot and burn whats left. Or they could act like they are going to work together and take "Unarmed" to Katyn and tie hands behind back and shot them. Then blame Germany. Germany was busy with the rest of Poland. But come on UNARMED.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:52 / #
Quoting: plk123 that means 'willing' z. Oh I know. It sounded kinda weak to me though ;) Quoting: Wroclaw Boy You are an idiot!! I actually started typing an answer since I thought you wanted a genuine debate, but you have proven that don't. I'm not interested. Just one final note; don't write "we the Brits" when you write about WW2. You weren't there, keyboard warrior.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:08 / #
Quoting: z_darius Like... military assistance? Like ... an ttack against Germany in the West to take some of the heat of Polish forces? Most German forces were in the East at the time. What Hitler hoped for, and what Stalin was waiting for till September 17th was exactly what Brits did - nothing. Dont make dates about stuff you dont know about, the Poles were fuked from -1000 dayes beforte invasion. Cos your troops, tanks and air forcve were and are unbelievably inferior

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:09 / #
Quoting: z_darius Poles were the 4th largest army in Europe during WW2 and you write that Poles were not unwilling to fight? I didnt say that anyway, the poles were great alies

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:11 / #
Quoting: z_darius Poles were the 4th largest army in Europe during WW2 and you write that Poles were not unwilling to fight? 4th Largest army!!!! you fell in the 1st quickest time.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:12 / #
Quoting: z_darius not unwilling that means 'willing' z.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:20 / #
Quoting: z_darius Like... military assistance? Like ... an ttack against Germany in the West to take some of the heat of Polish forces? Most German forces were in the East at the time. What Hitler hoped for, and what Stalin was waiting for till September 17th was exactly what Brits did - nothing. And how the hell were we supposed to mount such an attack at that time?? Our resources were stretched to the limit as it was. Please advise, what should we have done to make things different?? Im curious that you could have done something better.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:29 / #
Quoting: z_darius Like... military assistance? Like ... an ttack against Germany in the West to take some of the heat of Polish forces? Most German forces were in the East at the time. What Hitler hoped for, and what Stalin was waiting for till September 17th was exactly what Brits did - nothing. So let me get this staight: We the brits should have launched an aggressive attack against the German divisions in the West to ease the pressure on the East which was already doomed. We all now that Poland was gonna be occupied by either the Germans or the Russians so no fancy flanking manouveres from the aliies would have a made any diffenece at all. Why would the Allies throw pressious resources at at a countries falnk that is already doomed!! Dude you fuked, and now notin Next Question PLEASE:

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 13:35 / #
Quoting: plk123 Quoting: z_darius not unwilling that means 'willing' z. PLK123 exaclty right. There barking up the wrong tree

eric_the_naveThreads: - Posts: 47 Joined: Jul 27, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:37 / #
By my understanding the more legitimate Polish complaints about the British during WW2 are the following: 1. They decalared war but weren't prepared to fight (though I think the French with the largest army pre WW2 are more at fault for not attacking the Germans from the West than the British) 2. Their treaty suggested that they go to war with any European power that attacked Poland yet they did not go to war with the Soviet Union (not nice but it was understandable Britain and it's commonwealth, France and Poland combined were never likely to beat the Germans and Soviets combined) 3 After all the promises made to Poland during the battle of Britain, Churchill just offered up Eastern Poland to the Stalin in Tehran without ever consulting the Polish government in exile 4 The Warsaw uprising where no real aid was given to the insurgents and no complaints made to Stalin (in this case Churchill did try to help the AK and tried to get Stalin to help also - FDR was far more the villain here than Churchill) 5 The Yalta conference whereby FDR and Churchill recognise the Lublin government and ignored the legitimate Polish government in exile 6 The London victory Parade in 1946 which recognised all nations that help defeat the Nazis - except for Poland who gave the fourth most important contribution after the USSR, USA and Britain to this defeat. All of these are valid complaints (and there maybe more but though I like to pretend I am, I'm definitely no historian) but those responsible are but a few dozen Brits who happened to be in power at the time. It is wrong to hold all Britain responsible (and as previously noted I don't think Poles generally hate Britain because of it)

eric_the_naveThreads: - Posts: 47 Joined: Jul 27, 07	Nov 16, 07, 13:39 / #
By my understanding the more legitimate Polish complaints about the British during WW2 are the following: 1. They decalared war but weren't prepared to fight (though I think the French with the largest army pre WW2 are more at fault for not attacking the Germans from the West than the British) 2. Their treaty suggested that they go to war with any European power that attacked Poland yet they did not go to war with the Soviet Union (not nice but it was understandable Britain and it's commonwealth, France and Poland combined were never likely to beat the Germans and Soviets combined) 3 After all the promises made to Poland during the battle of Britain, Churchill just offered up Eastern Poland to the Stalin in Tehran without ever consulting the Polish government in exile 4 The Warsaw uprising where no real aid was given to the insurgents and no complaints made to Stalin (in this case Churchill did try to help the AK and tried to get Stalin to help also - FDR was far more the villain here than Churchill) 5 The Yalta conference whereby FDR and Churchill recognise the Lublin government and ignored the legitimate Polish government in exile 6 The London victory Parade in 1946 which recognised all nations that help defeat the Nazis - except for Poland who gave the fourth most important contribution after the USSR, USA and Britain to this defeat. All of these are valid complaints (and there maybe more but though I like to pretend I am, I'm definitely no historian) but those responsible are but a few dozen Brits who happened to be in power at the time. It is wrong to hold all Britain responsible (and as previously noted I don't think Poles generally hate Britain because of it)

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 14:00 / #
The official death toll 55,000,000 miliratry and civiilian germany 7,000,000 china 6,000,000 jews 6,000,000 japan 3,000,000 yugoslowia 1,300,000 france 600,000 italy 600,000 GB 400,000 US 320,000 Russia20,000,000-30,000,000 or 20% of its population.

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 14:01 / #
Quoting: z_darius I actually started typing an answer since I thought you wanted a genuine debate, but you have proven that don't. I'm not interested. Bring it on Quoting: z_darius Just one final note; don't write "we the Brits" when you write about WW2. You weren't there, keyboard warrior. Hurry up with the response please, i am a genuine descendant of a Normandy combatant.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Nov 16, 07, 14:10 / #
The only chance for Poland to avoid occupation was to try alliance with Soviet Union forcing Great Britain and France get into alliance with Soviets who would guarantee intervention in case of german invasion to Poland.However the Poles saw the Soviets as the devil and did not want them to enter their land.

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Nov 16, 07, 14:15 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw Boy The official death toll55,000,000 miliratry and civiiliangermany 7,000,000china 6,000,000jews 6,000,000japan 3,000,000yugoslowia 1,300,000france 600,000italy 600,000GB 400,000US 320,000Russia20,000,000-30,000,000 or 20% of its population. Poland have lost 6 mln citizens 3 mln jews 3 mln other religion Quoting: southern The only chance for Poland to avoid occupation was to try alliance with Soviet Union forcing Great Britain and France get into alliance with Soviets who would guarantee intervention in case of german invasion to Poland.however the Poles saw the Soviets as the devil and did not want them to enter their land. or take German proposal give them Jews, Poles equal race ,Gdansk and some parts of western Poland for Germans, Western Ukraine for Poland. Germans would take the rest of Russia ... we couldnt accept this proposal because we have diferent values than Germans

Wroclaw Boy	Nov 16, 07, 14:23 / #
Quoting: Lukasz or take German proposal give them Jews, Poles equal race ,Gdansk and some parts of western Poland for Germans, Western Ukraine for Poland. Germans would take the rest of Russia ... we couldnt accept this proposal because we have other values than Germans I know mate, I think you guys are cool 303 squadron one of the best in the RAF

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Nov 16, 07, 18:33 / #
OK as to history it is history, but in some countries it is falsed. When I read about "Polish dead camps" where nazists were killing jews (offcourse not Germans LOL but some enigmatic naizists in Polish dead camps ... ) so It makes me furious. What is important, in Poland the and of Russian occupation was in '89 so it isnt "acient" hisoty like for some western european nations ...

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Nov 16, 07, 19:39 / #
;)