World War II - a tragic story for Poland and the World

Nathan:

Peasants and Cossacks in Nalyvajko Uprising in 1590s were taking cities with ease not because of their prowess or military skill - at that time they were simple people with no training of whatsoever, people who looked for freedom from mfs. They easily conquered cities because cities opened their doors to them as to saviors and only Polish stationary units were destroyed in these fights

Nathan:

People fought with scythes, spades, forks, branches whatever they found

Nathan:

was killed unless it was rich, fat, lazy, non-working mf.

Nathan:

At Lubny you gave a promise and as always didn't keep it.

Nathan:

You call people stupid fighting you with the last things they had to fight? Haha. These were PEOPLE (written with big letters) because they LIVED and knew WHAT for. Don't even dare to say anything against them, sokrates (wr. in sm. letters).

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	Edited by: Matyjasz Jun 21, 09, 01:11 / #
Nathan: In all the forums you present yourself as the only nation out there to invent everything, to be generous and so on. Pure BS. Are you programmed? Taking under consideration this forum, yes very much so. But how exactly is that answering my initial question about Ukrainians? Nathan: And you say Poland saved Europe, but when I said that Cossacks saved Commonwealth at Khotyn where Ukrainian made half of the total force and major attacking one, you say I am programed. Haha. Polish mentality, nothing else ;) I'm pretty sure I never said that Poles single-handly saved Europe at the battle of Vienna but I would love to see you prove me wrong. As for the "Ukrainians saved the Commonwealth at Khotyn" statement, it's good that you finally acknowledged other nationalities also. You don't have to apologize to me. Just try not to lie in the future, ok? Oh, and you seem to be a very angry man, Nathan. freebird: why would they be lying on the floor? lol And have you ever seen anyone telling lies on a ceiling? Duuhh…. ;) .

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 21, 09, 07:02 / #
ZIMMY: "Ukraine, which lost 2.5 million soldiers and 4.5 million civilians wasn't invited to the freaking parade." Maybe because Ukies didn't serve under the British? Maybe because a significant percentage of Ukies fought with the Germans? Maybe because Ukies didn't field the 4th largest Allied army? Maybe because Ukies didn't fight in the battle of Britain? Maybe because.............etc. We never asked for invitation and will never whine about not being there like you. Where do you have an army of 2.5 million soldiers who fell in the battlefield in Allied forces? Fighting with the Germans - only 3,281 recruits were accepted into SS Galicia even though 80,000 volunteers were there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_ Galicia_(1st_Ukrainian) Seanus: Nathan, the Ukrainians were very brutal in Warsaw. Yes, the resident Poles were naive to believe that the Ukrainians were coming to their aid but they were even as brutal as the SS officers. The war was not conducted extensively in Ukraine, much more in Poland. ZIMMY is right, there are just too many maybes. Define "much more of war was going on in Poland", please. Some links? Ukrainians were brutal to Polish in Warsaw? You might want to read the following: http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/rona.htm Seanus, I am hoping to hear from you. Sokrates: You're talking about a guy who edited a wiki article about a Polish-Ukrainian battle adding three times the combatants just so he could post an impressive "proof" of Ukrainian military achievements I don't need to rig the truth. I quoted whatever I found on Wikipedia. I usually do that since I don't have time to search in the books. If this number is wrong or any other in what I posted - pardon - but I quote whatever I see there. If you have some other source, please, supply it - I am looking forward for that. Peasants and Cossacks in Nalyvajko Uprising in 1590s were taking cities with ease not because of their prowess or military skill - at that time they were simple people with no training of whatsoever, people who looked for freedom from mfs. They easily conquered cities because cities opened their doors to them as to saviors and only Polish stationary units were destroyed in these fights which were not considerably large (I wouldn't call it "major victories" as you do ;)). People fought with scythes, spades, forks, branches whatever they found under their hands. Notice also what cities they took into their control - Ukrainian cities with Ukrainian inhabitants, none of which was killed unless it was rich, fat, lazy, non-working mf. At Lubny you gave a promise and as always didn't keep it. You did betray then, 40 years later at Khmelnitsckij's battles, in 1921 in Riga. And you call a major victory of Poland fighting against these people. What did you say in 1648-1657? You call people stupid fighting you with the last things they had to fight? Haha. These were PEOPLE (written with big letters) because they LIVED and knew WHAT for. Don't even dare to say anything against them, sokrates (wr. in sm. letters). Matyjasz: You don't have to apologize to me. Where did I apologize to you? What lies are you talking about? "And have you ever seen anyone telling lies on a ceiling? Duuhh…. " You still think others were lying on the floor while Poles fought?

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jun 21, 09, 09:25 / #
Harry: As already posted: read General Anders memoirs, all the details are there. I asked for a link to invitation, not a book recommendation, Harry. Are you telling me that there is no British government web page that published the original invitation if only to refute the claim that Polish forces were not invited?

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	Jun 21, 09, 09:49 / #
Nathan: Where did I apologize to you? What lies are you talking about? I was talking in advance, me friend. As for what lies? Focus Nathan. We started our little chit-chat about you not mentioning Polish-Lithuanian forces in the battle of Khotyn, even though, as you yourself later on admitted, they sonsituted half of the army. Does it ring a bell, Nathan? Nathan: "And have you ever seen anyone telling lies on a ceiling? Duuhh…. " You still think others were lying on the floor while Poles fought? Oi, Nathan! "Lying" means to tell lies, and not to lay on the floor. Actually I'm still confused with the lie word. Stupid language! ;)

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Jun 21, 09, 11:22 / #
Ukrainians in the Warsaw Uprising (some facts are quite new even to me) Members of SS Galizien were involved in the suppression of the Warsaw uprising in autumn, 1944. They were part of the Ukrainian Self-Defence Legion (Volhynia Legion under Petro Diachenko) Ukrainians (and Belorussians) made about 50% of so called Dirlewanger Brigade famous for their mass killings of civilians in Wola and Ochota districts of Warsaw. 209 Cossack batalion Schutzmannschaften. More in Polish only: http://jaron.salon24.pl/60552,zbrodnie-ukrainskie-w-powstaniu-warszaws kim-i-ich-antypolski-pie

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Jun 21, 09, 12:42 / #
Borrka: Ukrainians (and Belorussians) made about 50% of so called Dirlewanger Brigade famous for their mass killings of civilians in Wola and Ochota districts of Warsaw. I thought it was some Russians there also?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 21, 09, 12:54 / #
Nathan: Peasants and Cossacks in Nalyvajko Uprising in 1590s were taking cities with ease not because of their prowess or military skill - at that time they were simple people with no training of whatsoever, people who looked for freedom from mfs. They easily conquered cities because cities opened their doors to them as to saviors and only Polish stationary units were destroyed in these fights At the time most cities had Polish/Jewish/Polonized Ukrainian populations, sorry to break it to you bud but most cities had to be stormed. Nathan: People fought with scythes, spades, forks, branches whatever they found No Nathan, Nalevajko had with him more than 9000 former registry Cossacks and at least 6000 dismounted and sich infantry, he had 15.000 regular troops which in that period has a massive amount, he also had Czern (armed civilian component) who were indeed poorly armed but even they were better off than you sell them. Nathan: was killed unless it was rich, fat, lazy, non-working mf. Thats an interesting outlook, murdering wealthy people is ok because they're wealthy:) Nathan: At Lubny you gave a promise and as always didn't keep it. You dont keep promises to rebels. Nathan: You call people stupid fighting you with the last things they had to fight? Haha. These were PEOPLE (written with big letters) because they LIVED and knew WHAT for. Don't even dare to say anything against them, sokrates (wr. in sm. letters). If you didnt fight us you'd be a part of Europe today, most likely with democracy and materially better off but hey whatever rocks your boat captain 40% of Polish GDP!

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Jun 21, 09, 13:32 / #
Mr Grunwald: I thought it was some Russians there also? Lots of them. So called RONA - Russian National Liberation Army (Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Narodnaya Armiya) famous for bestialities and cowardice second to none. And of course the Red Army watching with pleasure burning Warsaw from the East side of the Vistula river.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jun 21, 09, 16:48 / #
Borrka: And of course the Red Army watching with pleasure burning Warsaw from the East side of the Vistula river. Nonsense. What do you think they had to do?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 21, 09, 17:25 / #
ConstantineK: Nonsense. What do you think they had to do? Allow the Polish army to cross Vistula, Polish regular forces outnumberd Germans pacyfying Warsaw 3 to 1 in manpower, 4 to 1 in tanks and 9 to 1 in artillery, if Stalin would allow Poles to help their countrymen they'd squash the German forces within days.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Jun 21, 09, 17:37 / #
There is no defending the Reds' failure during the Warsaw Uprising. None!!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 21, 09, 19:08 / #
Nathan: If they became rich illegaly and justice is in their hands, scythe helps to bring Femida back. The Jews, Polish nobles and citizens often of Ruthenian descent murdered by Cossacks were more often than not murdered simply because Cossacks were simple barbaric people not adhering to rules of war or simple civilized humanity. Nathan: Give me a link to that. ;) Please, let it be in English/FrenchGerman, not in either of our languages for bias purposes. I'm sorry all i can give you is Polish links (i dont speak Ukrainian) or Ukrainian historians. Cossacks were not pitchfork wielding peasants, they formed powerfull armies by any standard. However i stand corrected i mixed Nalewajkos uprising which had at most 8.000 men with the later campaign. Nathan: Promise is a promise. Poles are famous for breaking promises. We're famous for quite a few things Nathan, kiełbasa, vodka, hard work, WW2, Battle of Britain, what is Ukraine famous for?:))) Nathan: Haha. And who would you be? I am glad you are where you are. You deserve it. ;) Yes we do, we deserve to be in EU and Nato, we deserve to have the strongest economy in Europe and we deserve to be a rapidly developing country with growing international leverage, and where is Ukraine today Nathan?:) Oh yeah where it was 30 or 50 years ago :)))

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 21, 09, 19:21 / #
Sokrates: We're famous for quite a few things Nathan, kiełbasa, vodka, hard work, WW2, Battle of Britain, what is Ukraine famous for?:))) Hospitality, hard work, Ukrainian borshch and pyrogy, Klitschko brothers, beautiful women, Cossacks, L'vivske beer "1715" (hmm - delicious) and strong will to be free. Sokrates: Yes we do, we deserve to be in EU and Nato, we deserve to have the strongest economy in Europe and we deserve to be a rapidly developing country with growing international leverage, and where is Ukraine today Nathan?:) Oh yeah where it was 30 or 50 years ago :))) I am glad Poland is the strongest economy in Europe ;) and everything goes well for your country. Ukraine will be there some day as well. We have everything for it - people, resourses, will, hardwork. It takes time and some necessary political changes which are underway. But thank you for your concern, Sokrates.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 21, 09, 22:45 / #
Matyjasz: Mentioning Gołota was actually a hit below the belt. ;) I know. That's why Sokrates heard only of him. He likes professional escapers/runners and ball-punchers ;)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 21, 09, 18:44 / #
Borrka: 209 Cossack batalion Schutzmannschaften. And that Cossacks batalion was made of Ukrainians? Any link? Like RONA? http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/rona.htm Sokrates: Thats an interesting outlook, murdering wealthy people is ok because they're wealthy:) If they became rich illegaly and justice is in their hands, scythe helps to bring Femida back. Sokrates: You dont keep promises to rebels. Promise is a promise. Poles are famous for breaking promises. Sokrates: If you didnt fight us you'd be a part of Europe today Haha. And who would you be? I am glad you are where you are. You deserve it. ;) Sokrates: No Nathan, Nalevajko had with him more than 9000 former registry Cossacks and at least 6000 dismounted and sich infantry, he had 15.000 regular troops which in that period has a massive amount, he also had Czern (armed civilian component) who were indeed poorly armed but even they were better off than you sell them. Give me a link to that. ;) Please, let it be in English/FrenchGerman, not in either of our languages for bias purposes.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 21, 09, 19:45 / #
Nathan: Hospitality, hard work, Ukrainian borshch and pyrogy, Dude, most people dont even know you exist, besides whats borshch and pyrogy? I got friends in Lwów and even i dont know:))) Nathan: Klitschko brothers Who? Just because You know something it doesnt mean its internationally famous Nathan: will be there some day as well. Hopefully.

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	Jun 21, 09, 19:51 / #
Sokrates: Who? Just because You know something it doesnt mean its internationally famous Boxers. Quite famous actually. Never heard about Lvivske beer though. I will be on the look out for it. Tried Magnat recently, and it was quite decent.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 21, 09, 20:06 / #
Matyjasz: Boxers. Quite famous actually. Well, they are not as famous internationally as Polish Golota, but they are doing their best ;) Klitschkos don't have skills to hit below the belt or escape from the boxing ring from Tyson at the beginning of the 2nd round like Golota. Matyjasz: Never heard about Lvivske beer though. I will be on the look out for it. Try it out - it's good. Tell me which one you like the best. I love trying different things.

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	Jun 21, 09, 20:41 / #
Nathan: Well, they are not as famous internationally as Polish Golota, but they are doing their best ;) Klitschkos don't have skills to hit below the belt or escape from the boxing ring from Tyson at the beginning of the 2nd round like Golota. Mentioning Gołota was actually a hit below the belt. ;)

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 22, 09, 10:07 / #
Bzibzioh: I asked for a link to invitation, not a book recommendation, Harry. Read page 299 of the book: General Anders himself confirms that Polish servicemen were invited to the victory parade but that they declined to attend. Bzibzioh: Are you telling me that there is no British government web page that published the original invitation if only to refute the claim that Polish forces were not invited? No there isn't. And there isn't a British government web page which denies the claim made by the Iranian government is the great Satan of the world. Perhaps the British government think that there are more important things to spend tax-payer money on. Unlike the Polish government which maintains a webpage insisting that Poles were not invited to the London victory parade or to the Moscow victory parade (a parade which Polish troops most definitely did attend and which there is photographs of them taking part in).

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 22, 09, 12:42 / #
Victory Parade 8 June 1946 The relevant British Government files are: HO 45/20688 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations HO 45/20689 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations HO 45/20690 (War) 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations HO 326/78 .. 1946 Victory Celebrations; report on the Victory Parade 1946; miscellaneous papers WO 32/12418 (Code 27c) 1946-1947 Victory Parade 1946 WORK 21/203 .. 1945-1946 Victory Celebrations, including report

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 22, 09, 12:59 / #
sjam: Victory Parade 8 June 1946 The relevant British Government files are: Yes, but because those documents are not available online, to people like Bzibzioh those documents do not actually exist!

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Edited by: Administrator Jun 22, 09, 14:40 / #
The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited and in the most tepid manner. It rightlfully declined its very limited invitation because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish units which were not invited. BRITISH GOVERNMENT APOLOGISES FOR V-DAY PARADE WITHOUT THE POLES. A DEBT TO PARENTS REPAID It has finally happened: the British Government has officially expressed regret for not inviting Polish Combatants for the famous V-Day parade in 1946. http://www.polandinexile.com/vp3.htm

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Edited by: Harry Jun 22, 09, 14:56 / #
ZIMMY: The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited and in the most tepid manner. It rightlfully declined its very limited invitation because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish units which were not invited. As has been said countless times before, Polish army and navy units were not invited because no army or navy units from any non-Commonwealth/Empire nations were invited! 303 squadron apparently felt that the free Polish army had more to win the war than both the army of the USA and that of the USSR: no units from the US Army or the Red Army were invited to take part in the parade. Anybody heard any ******** or moaning from the USA or USSR about that? ZIMMY: He replied. “He very much regrets” sounds the mea culpa of Downing Street. That is a lie for a start: the letter says no such thing. ZIMMY: It has finally happened: the British Government has officially expressed regret for not inviting Polish Combatants for the famous V-Day parade in 1946. Two lies for the price of one! As we (including ZIMMY) all know that Polish combatants were invited to the parade and the letter makes no apology at all for not inviting Poles. The letter actually says "We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade".

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Jun 22, 09, 15:19 / #
Harry: As we (including ZIMMY) all know that Polish combatants were invited to the parade and the letter makes no apology at all for not inviting Poles Here's the pertinent portion of the letter. It gives a clearer picture of regret. "The Polish units serving in the British Armed Forces played a distinguished and gallant part in the Second World War and it is fitting that their contribution should be remembered and honored. We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade. ...... We will ensure that veterans from Polish forces that fought with the Allies will be represented in these events." Since the above note was a response to Blair receiving a letter which included this; “I am writing to you today in the hope that you may be able to correct one of the more shameful deeds of the British Government in 1945, which left a permanent scar on the reputation of Great Britain among her most loyal Allies,” . It is clear what is meant by Blair's response. Why would the British government need to "ensure" anything if there was no liability on their part? Those who which to parse this further need only to read the following which was not refuted by the British government; "To our great dishonour, the British Labour Party acquiesced to the Soviet government demand that no Polish serivcemen serving under British command should participate in the Parade. After almost 60 years this feeling of treachery did not vanish.” gotta go.....

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 22, 09, 15:38 / #
ZIMMY: Here's the pertinent portion of the letter. It gives a clearer picture of regret. Yes, it clearly shows that "he" is not mentioned anywhere in the letter and that the author was lying when he said it was. ZIMMY: It is clear what is meant by Blair's response. Why would the British government need to "ensure" anything if there was no liability on their part? If there was any past liability at all (which you yourself have said there isn't), why didn't they apologise for the Poles not being invited? Oh, yes, I remember why: it's because Poles were invited. ZIMMY: To our great dishonour, the British Labour Party acquiesced to the Soviet government demand that no Polish serivcemen serving under British command should participate in the Parade. ZIMMY: The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited I do wish you'd make your mind up.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 22, 09, 16:06 / #
ZIMMY: We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade. ...... I think you will agree that; "We very much regret that Polish contingents did not take part in the victory parade" is not quite the same thing as "We very much regret that Polish contingents were not invited to take part in the victory parade"?

porzeczkaThreads: - Posts: 129 Joined: Jan 14, 09	Jun 22, 09, 16:29 / #
Nathan: We never asked for invitation and will never whine about not being there like you. Where do you have an army of 2.5 million soldiers who fell in the battlefield in Allied forces? Maybe because there was no such country as Ukraine before and after WW2, only Ukrainian SSR - a republic of the Soviet Union. Ukrainians fighting on eastern front (on allied side) were Soviet Army soldiers (4.5-7 million ethnic Ukrainians). Unlike them, Polish soldiers fought also on western front with French and British armies. I don't know if Soviets were invited to the Victory Parade in London. The campaign in Poland had not finished yet when Polish troops abroad started to form. The government of Poland in exile that emerged in Paris adopted as its main goal the fight at the side of the Allies and creating a Polish army in France. This was the beginning of the Polskie Siły Zbrojne (PSZ - Polish Armed Forces) in the West which fought until May 1945 in three theatres of war: Western Europe (1940 and 1944-1945), North Europe (1940) and Mediterranean (North Africa in 1940-1942, Italy 1944-1945). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allies_of_World_War_II http://www.ww2.pl/Polish,Armed,Forces,in,the,West,23.html http://ddayhell.pl/index_pl.php?go=12

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Jun 22, 09, 17:33 / #
Harry: why didn't they apologise for the Poles not being invited? Oh, yes, I remember why: it's because Poles were invited. I believe the Blair letter and subsequent British queezy-ness and follow-up on this matter is proof enough that not enough was done to include Poles in the victory parade, indeed, it was shameful. This matter is obvious to the objective historian although not to British defenders of the indefensible. Harry: The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited I do wish you'd make your mind up. As usual your unlimited ability to parse the real meaning only inhibits your argument. When making your illigimate point you continue to only partially quote leaving out the full meaning. That's a short-sighted tactic. Here is what I stated; "The 303 squadron was the only Polish unit invited and in the most tepid manner. It rightlfully declined its very limited invitation because the invitation was not extended to any other Polish units which were not invited." That certainly gives a full reading to what I stated. I'll put it simply for you; When people are invited to a full dinner but one of the quests is offered only crumbs than that quest has a right to refuse to eat those droppings. sjam Like the staunch British apologist Harry you are also ignoring the full content of the letter and the subsequent 'make-up' and remedy that was involved. No remedy was needed if injustice wasn't done.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jun 22, 09, 17:41 / #
ZIMMY: I'll put it simply for you; When people are invited to a full dinner but one of the quests is offered only crumbs than that quest has a right to refuse to eat those droppings. The western Command Poles received exactly the same invitation as the USA. And France. And the USSR. And Belgium. And Denmark. And Holland. And Norway. And Greece. And every other non-Commonwealth/Empire allied nation. But they had to be different, they had to be better than all other non-Commonwealth/Empire allied nations: they had to have their army and navy invited too. They were refusing to eat any droppings, they were insisting on a triple helping! ZIMMY: When making your illigimate point you continue to only partially quote leaving out the full meaning. And when telling your lie, you lie. porzeczka: I don't know if Soviets were invited to the Victory Parade in London. Yes they were.