Afghanistan and Poland

Seanus:

If they are not as good, they are inferior, Torny. The edit button is your friend ;) ;) ;)

Sokrates:

The way they went wrong is an indicator in itself, the numbers of Spetsnaz are another, you cant have nearly 20.000 elite soldiers in an underfunded army like Russian one.

Given the propaganda Russians spout in regards to their subpar military hardware i wouldnt be suprised if averagere Spetsnaz was just trained to regular western standards which in their army where holding a gun by the right end is a problem could be seen as impressive.

Sokrates:

Based on what? What would make SAS or Delta force better? They use same gear, similar training regimes and have on average similar combat experience.

Sokrates:

Of course, thats how these things work, American SF also learned from SAS, virtually everyone started with SAS (though not everyone admits it) since Brits created the efficient training basics, thats absolutely not an indicator of quality.

Sokrates:

By the same logic Brits should be gods of tank warfare since they invented the tanks and Germans just copied them, Brits even invented Blitzkrieg but guess who was better:)

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,468 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Sep 14, 09, 13:01 / #
Dont you mean Poland in Afghanistan, or why are the Poles fighting in Afghanistan. Afghanistan and Poland means to me, not what you intended.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Sep 14, 09, 15:50 / #
Wroclaw Boy: why are the Poles fighting in Afghanistan. Of course Why are the Poles fighting in Afghanistan? I have some nice pictures but unfortunately cannot post them here.

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Edited by: polishcanuck Sep 14, 09, 17:31 / #
Ironside: Of course Why are the Poles fighting in Afghanistan? The US ordered, maybe even bribed poland to go to afghanistan to fight in the so called "war on terror." Ironside: I have some nice pictures but unfortunately cannot post them here. Upload them onto photobucket.com or imageshack.us

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 14, 09, 22:50 / #
The Americans know that Poland has some of the best soldiers. An old friend of my fiancee's was a soldier in Bosnia. He was offered to come to America as they wanted to recruit Poles. GROM should get a run out but, to my knowledge, only the Navy Seals and SAS/SBS have got a sniff of the action. What the war in Afghanistan is showing is that greater numbers don't necessarily translate to more success. The terrain requires specialists to pull off complicated missions. All participating nations should pitch in with their contingent. Otherwise, it's gonna be an embarrassment. The Taliban, according to the reports anyway, occupy better positions and have the lay of the land.

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:01 / #
If your part of an alliance then surely you should expect to send soldiers to the same place as your allies?? maybe i'm wrong but that is the general idea!!!!! Seanus: The Americans know that Poland has some of the best soldiers i'm not trying to be offensive but really?? surely you cannot claim they are as seasoned in worldwide battle as both SBS/SAS and Navy Seals, even MOSAD and Spetsnaz have seen more action than GROM.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Sep 14, 09, 23:06 / #
tornado2007: i'm not trying to be offensive but really?? surely you cannot claim they are as seasoned in worldwide battle as both SBS/SAS and Navy Seals, even MOSAD and Spetsnaz have seen more action than GROM. None of us know what these groups really get up to. So, we cannot know who is best etc. I'd put a good deal of trust in GROM, if ever I needed their service.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Sep 14, 09, 23:09 / #
tornado2007: If your part of an alliance then surely you should expect to send soldiers to the same place as your allies?? I would think that if you are going to invade another country, you would want a better reason. tornado2007: maybe i'm wrong but that is the general idea!!!!! I think there is a huge difference between invading and defending. Sure sometimes it is not so clear but Afghanistan? come on..

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Sep 14, 09, 23:12 / #
I was talking about the regular army, Torny. Anyway, they are conducting clandestine operations in Afghanistan, the results of which aren't published in regular circles. How then do you know how good or bad they are? Oops, I've just read Wrocław's comments above. Ah well, we think the same thing then. Look at Poland's terrain, ideal for training elite soldiers. They are intelligent and equipped with all modern skills such as languages, SCUBA training and first aid. They train extensively with the NAVY Seals. Seasoned? No. Talented? Yes

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:18 / #
Wroclaw: I'd put a good deal of trust in GROM, if ever I needed their service. please don't think that i have not confidence in a nations Special Forces, i think that would be a big mistake, all i'm saying is that the others are more battle hardened around the world. Wroclaw: None of us know what these groups really get up to. So, we cannot know who is best etc. unfortunately some of the SF activity is well documented, even if it is unofficial. SeanBM: I would think that if you are going to invade another country, you would want a better reason. that could get into a debate that would never end, so maybe its better we don't go there, there are reasons it just depends if you accept them or not. Seanus: I was talking about the regular army, Torny. Anyway, they are conducting clandestine operations in Afghanistan, the results of which aren't published in regular circles. How then do you know how good or bad they are? Regular army, well what have the Poles been doing lately?? how many of their forces are active, i bet its not nearly as many as the US and the UK, maybe even the Ruskies too. Seanus: Look at Poland's terrain, ideal for training elite soldiers. They are intelligent and equipped with all modern skills such as languages, SCUBA training and first aid. They train extensively with the NAVY Seals. I don't know what sort of training the Polish SF train on but for example, the SAS go to many different world locations for 'terrain training' for example, Belize, Colombia, Norway to name but of few of the SAS's training destinations. Seanus: Talented? Yes i don't think anybody would disagree with that, if your in a SF unit/regiment then your obviously talented :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Sep 14, 09, 23:25 / #
More battle hardened they are but everyone has to start somewhere. It's all about opportunity. They want to remain low profile, they are not all about glory as some of the SAS boys were, Maggie's gems, fuj! Let us not forget about the shoot-to-kill SAS idea in Gibraltar. I'm a fan of their operations as a Scot but they've made key mistakes. They are still active in Afghanistan and were in Georgia for some time. I have a contact number to a current soldier, he'll tell you all about it. Poland has their terrain types on its doorstep, Torny. Ports, mountains and plenty forests. I was gonna throw in masses of desert there but I'd just be lying if I did ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:38 / #
Done, Szarly. I meant many in the sense of quite a few individuals, not in the sense of the majority of the SAS. Still, it reads better now. The Mossad are an intelligence gathering unit but still conduct killings, Sokrates, albeit only when the need calls for it. I'm aware of that desert, Sokrates, but I'd hardly describe it as masses of desert. Still, you are right. As long as you have enough to conduct training sessions, you don't need hectares. Just experience with the terrain.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Sep 14, 09, 23:58 / #
I still do not understand why countries are paying compensation to opium farmers, when they accidentally destroy opium fields in Afghanistan? A lot of this opium is turned in to heroin, and sold here in Europe and the U.S. From here As discussed near the end of this threadPolish withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq or not

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Sep 15, 09, 00:10 / #
Sokrates, the Russians have heavily invested in new machinery and training since the data you are pulling. There was a BBC segment on it by an English reporter who speaks Russian. They are modernising their equipment all the time. I think Torny means the diversity of their missions, Sokrates. Still, Afghanistan is like Vietnam in that the locals have extensive knowledge of their surroundings. Our advantage is the scouting missions that our helicopters do but, even then, it is proving hard to localise/pinpoint some enemy combatants. The SAS can get behind enemy lines as they showed in Serbia but their success rate may be being preserved in Afghanistan as tough missions may well be foiled, thus avoided. Inferior is used in a comparative sense, Torny. It means lower in quality. You are clearly implying that the SAS are superior or do you place GROM on the same footing? You just said above that the SAS was superior as a fighting force. I read and then edited.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Sep 15, 09, 02:12 / #
Seanus: Sokrates, the Russians have heavily invested in new machinery What new machinery? BMP-3, T-90 or SU-35?:) Seanus: training since the data you are pulling. Want some youtube links to their barracks training? They barely have money for food and you want them to have money for fuel, spare parts and ammo, untill they downsize their force significantly they'll remain a bunch of conscripts with tanks remembering the 80s. Seanus: I think Torny means the diversity of their missions, Sokrates. All of these formations are trained for diverse missions. tornado2007: if its not an indicator of quality, then why is everybody following it?? Because certain things cant be done differently. To give you a simplified analogy, you can only wipe your ass using your hands. Also its not a strict following. tornado2007: are you trying to tell me that the Poles have moved the SF training etc etc forward :):) In more ways then one, yes. But thats also not a big thing since SF all around the world come up with new things and share. tornado2007: sorry mate but i would say that the fighting experience of the SAS/Delta is superior to that of GROM or FORMOZA. Based on what? You wont know how many missions the respective units were in, you will never know. tornado2007: Well i would disagree with you, to be 'inferior' is like being out of somebodies 'class' for example. But you're comparing forces that are in a single class in terms of equipment, combat experience and training, it doesnt matter if you've been in 10 missions or in 20 because you soak up enough experience after 5. Thats an example of course but the point is all of these guys saw extensive combat, they're very often used outside of limits of geopolitics, often in tandem with those from other countries, we can compare only their equipment, numbers, training regimes but their combat experience is an unknown.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Sep 14, 09, 23:31 / #
tornado2007: i'm not trying to be offensive but really?? surely you cannot claim they are as seasoned in worldwide battle as both SBS/SAS and Navy Seals, even MOSAD and Spetsnaz have seen more action than GROM. You're not offensive, you're ignorant. Navy Seals are a completely different category of special forces for which Poland has an equivalent called FORMOZA (special forces divers). Mossad is an inteligence agency like CIA its not a military special forces unit. SAS and Grom are trained to exactly the same standard since Grom is based on SAS training and having existed for 19 years the oldest GROM operatives are just as seasoned as their SAS counterparts. Its impossible to know who's better but there's no real reason to put SAS as superior, regular Mossad operatives are most definitely inferior, Spetsnaz is not even in the same league (excluding some elite branches) seeing how they messed up the hostage situations in Bieslan and Dubrovka cases. Seanus: I was gonna throw in masses of desert there but I'd just be lying if I did ;) You would not, Bledowska desert is small but perfectly imitates desert conditions, thats where our troops trained for Afganistan (thats also where Rommel trained his Africa Corps).

szarlotkaThreads: 14 Posts: 3,349 Joined: Feb 20, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:31 / #
Seanus: as many of the SAS boys were Make that a few and I will agree with you Seanus

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:39 / #
Sokrates: Mossad is an inteligence agency like CIA its not a military special forces unit. well i think its more of a grey area than you think :) Sokrates: You're not offensive, you're ignorant. Navy Seals are a completely different category of special forces for which Poland has an equivalent called FORMOZA (special forces divers). Special forces are special forces, air, land or sea, some nations seperate them and others don't. Maybe ingnorance in some aspects as i have to admit i don't know about FORMOZA. Sokrates: SAS and Grom are trained to exactly the same standard since Grom is based on SAS training and having existed for 19 years the oldest GROM operatives are just as seasoned as their SAS counterparts. Just as seasoned, how do you work that one out?? if they are as good as the SAS then why are they copying their trianing schedule?? surely that is following in the footseps of the parent/teacher. Sokrates: Its impossible to know who's better but there's no real reason to put SAS as superior, regular Mossad operatives are most definitely inferior, Spetsnaz is not even in the same league (excluding some elite branches) seeing how they messed up the hostage situations in Bieslan and Dubrovka cases. very often with SF units you tend to hear about the ones that go wrong, if a job is done well then you should hear nothing. I've never said GROM or any other Polish elite unit are bad or inferior, i've just said i don't beleive them to be as good as the SAS and a few other Units around the world.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 14, 09, 23:48 / #
It is more the Shin Bet that will take out Hezbollah and Hamas guys, Torny. I thought Formosa was turned into Taiwan. Ah well, just goes to show how wrong I was ;) ;) I like vegetable formosas tho (looks to the microwave) :) Seasoned meat formosas, even better :) The student sometimes surpasses the master :) (not here tho, I'd say) If they are not as good, they are inferior, Torny. The edit button is your friend ;) ;) ;)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Sep 14, 09, 23:50 / #
tornado2007: very often with SF units you tend to hear about the ones that go wrong, if a job is done well then you should hear nothing. The way they went wrong is an indicator in itself, the numbers of Spetsnaz are another, you cant have nearly 20.000 elite soldiers in an underfunded army like Russian one. Given the propaganda Russians spout in regards to their subpar military hardware i wouldnt be suprised if averagere Spetsnaz was just trained to regular western standards which in their army where holding a gun by the right end is a problem could be seen as impressive. tornado2007: I've never said GROM or any other Polish elite unit are bad or inferior, i've just said i don't beleive them to be as good as the SAS and a few other Units around the world. Based on what? What would make SAS or Delta force better? They use same gear, similar training regimes and have on average similar combat experience. tornado2007: Just as seasoned, how do you work that one out?? if they are as good as the SAS then why are they copying their trianing schedule?? surely that is following in the footseps of the parent/teacher. Of course, thats how these things work, American SF also learned from SAS, virtually everyone started with SAS (though not everyone admits it) since Brits created the efficient training basics, thats absolutely not an indicator of quality. By the same logic Brits should be gods of tank warfare since they invented the tanks and Germans just copied them, Brits even invented Blitzkrieg but guess who was better:)

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Sep 15, 09, 00:03 / #
Seanus: If they are not as good, they are inferior, Torny. The edit button is your friend ;) ;) ;) Well i would disagree with you, to be 'inferior' is like being out of somebodies 'class' for example. You would say that Robby Ginepri is an 'inferior' tennis player compaired to Roger Federer but would you say that Nadal was inferior?? i think not Sokrates: The way they went wrong is an indicator in itself, the numbers of Spetsnaz are another, you cant have nearly 20.000 elite soldiers in an underfunded army like Russian one. Given the propaganda Russians spout in regards to their subpar military hardware i wouldnt be suprised if averagere Spetsnaz was just trained to regular western standards which in their army where holding a gun by the right end is a problem could be seen as impressive. Its all well and good picking at the Russian SF but really, what is it the Poles have?? Sokrates: Based on what? What would make SAS or Delta force better? They use same gear, similar training regimes and have on average similar combat experience. sorry mate but i would say that the fighting experience of the SAS/Delta is superior to that of GROM or FORMOZA. Sokrates: Of course, thats how these things work, American SF also learned from SAS, virtually everyone started with SAS (though not everyone admits it) since Brits created the efficient training basics, thats absolutely not an indicator of quality. if its not an indicator of quality, then why is everybody following it?? what because they can't think of anything better, or just don't want to try?? Sokrates: By the same logic Brits should be gods of tank warfare since they invented the tanks and Germans just copied them, Brits even invented Blitzkrieg but guess who was better:) when have i ever said the Brits were great at tank warfare, yes the Germans did move it forward, are you trying to tell me that the Poles have moved the SF training etc etc forward :):)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 15, 09, 09:47 / #
It was said that they were giving their old tanks a final run out in Georgia last year before upgrading to more high-tech options. Well, they disposed of the Georgian army very quickly. The Red Army would still defeat the Polish one I think. The SAS can still put out propaganda too and few can readily verify the accuracy of their claims. Only high-profile government members are privy to such reports.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Sep 15, 09, 12:18 / #
tornado2007: sorry mate but i would say that the fighting experience of the SAS/Delta is superior to that of GROM or FORMOZA. What you call fighting experience? Fighting experience is an experience of individual soldiers, if those soldiers with fighting experiences are in the unit then unit have an fighting experience. After 20 years or so, GROM has as much fighting experience as any special forces units in the world. Sokrates: They barely have money for food and you want them to have money for fuel, spare parts and ammo, untill they downsize their force significantly they'll remain a bunch of conscripts with tanks remembering the 80s. I wouldn't underestimated Russian special forces, or any forces for that matter, they have great potential.

RubasznyRumcajsThreads: 9 Posts: 283 Joined: Mar 29, 08	Sep 15, 09, 12:28 / #
operation in Afghanistan is done by NATO forces. Poland is a part of NATO. Ironside: Fighting experience is an experience of individual soldiers, if those soldiers with fighting experiences are in the unit then unit have an fighting experience. After 20 years or so, GROM has as much fighting experience as any special forces units in the world. How many real-life operations GROM took a part of?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Sep 15, 09, 12:38 / #
Seanus: It was said that they were giving their old tanks a final run out in Georgia last year before upgrading to more high-tech options. Yes they went from very outdated T-72s to relatively outdated T-90s. Seanus: Well, they disposed of the Georgian army very quickly. No they did not, the Georgian army withdrew without much fight knowing Russians could just swarm them and fighting would mean the loss of sovereignty. Seanus: The Red Army would still defeat the Polish one I think. That depends on how much of the Red Army would actually have working equipment. If we're going with Russians just trowing men and equipment untill we run out of juice then yeah probably but i seriously doubt they have more than 100-150k battle worthy troops. They have approx 7x Polish defence budget and they have to spend it on a fleet thats about 30 times as large, an army thats 10 times as large and airforce thats 3 times as large, add to that the huge costs of deployment in Chechenya and all across the Russia and an average Russian regiment has what? 1/10th the funding of its Polish counterpart? This translates into soldiers who shot a couple of dozen bullets during entire term of service, cant operate the equipment, are armed with ancient weapons and driving rusting vehicles. Russian army is in a horrible horrible shape and unless they downsize it then Goergia caliber countries are the only ones they can mess with without getting spanked.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Sep 15, 09, 12:41 / #
RubasznyRumcajs: operation in Afghanistan is done by NATO forces. Poland is a part of NATO. Not every NATO member send his military forces to Afghanistan . RubasznyRumcajs: How many real-life operations GROM took a part of? Enough to have a fighting experience.

RubasznyRumcajsThreads: 9 Posts: 283 Joined: Mar 29, 08	Sep 15, 09, 13:01 / #
Ironside: Enough to have a fighting experience. yeah, more than SAS, right....

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Sep 15, 09, 13:02 / #
RubasznyRumcajs: yeah, more than SAS, right.... Why not? Because its SAS? In how many operations did SAS take part in the last 5 years?:)

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Sep 15, 09, 13:16 / #
Ironside: The reason for our military presents in Afghanistan is lost on me. Far more interesting question is why USA forces still are in Afghanistan. Terrorism, yeah right... One look on the map and things are quite clear = Iran. Geopolitical chess in central Asia, pipes from Iran to China and so on... Now in this context it is good to ask why we (Poland) are there? Is it paraller with our interests? Well, it is beyond me, to many factors. But simple fact is that currently there is easier for entire middle east to build pipes to the west than to the east. For example Nabucco through Turkey (important NATO member). Well, it is cynical and not idealistic at all, but this is the way this world works... Last but not least, this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse is not something that USA want to flourish... Imagine situation where dollar is no longer basic currency in oil and gas trading...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 15, 09, 13:43 / #
It is clearly geopolitical. The casualty rate is nothing like that of a world war and the strategic placement of Afghanistan is ideal for the Americans. They have Iraq on the other side of Iran. I'm fairly sure that attacking Iran would lead to a world war and that's why Putin reiterated his warning to America not to do it.