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EU constitution: 'Strong show' for Irish No vote ?


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LukaszThreads: 73
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Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 06:20 /  #
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7452171.stm

Early unofficial vote tallies around Ireland are indicating a strong showing for the No vote in a referendum on the European Union's Lisbon Treaty.


Polish president Lech Kaczynski and some British deptuies were doing everything to make this treaty more acceptable for smaller countries. We were called anti european.

It seems that Irish said "no" for EU treaty ... It was only one country with referendum.

we are still waiting for final results.
Deise 07Threads: 4
Posts: 91
Joined: Jul 30, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 07:36 /  #
Im pretty sure it has been rejected. Some parts of Dublin are in favour but the rest of the country is against.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0613/eulisbon.html

So the Irish say "thank you Europe for all your money over the past 30 years. Now **** Off".

Not very grateful of them. Damned Paddys daring to replicate the actions of the Dutch and French.

What does this say about further European integration? Have the populations of the old continent decided that we are now integrated enough and wish to integrate no further. What does it say about our "democracy" that everybody seems to value so highly? All of the European political establishment continent-wide are in favour while the electorates would appear to be generally against. Can we even say that we live in a "democracy" when our elected representatives are actually unrepresentative of our views?

Every political party in Ireland (bar one - the political manfestation of the IRA!) called for a Yes vote. Every media outlet including both newspapers, television and radio called for a Yes vote. Even the Catholic Church, while attempting to stay out of the debate, made noises in favour of the Yes campaign.

what does this say about the world in which we live?????
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 07:46 /  #
Deise 07:
Damned Paddys

Now you +++++++ off
What have the E.U. ever done for Ireland?

Has anybody read the Lisbon Treaty? and of the half a percent that did who understood it?

Deise 07:
what does this say about the world in which we live?????

Probably that people can think for themselves and are not the puppets anylonger of the political parties, media and church
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 07:54 /  #
I must admit that this treaty was made in way to give more power for big countries on cost of small countries.

Poland durring desperate negotiations reached rights given for big countries (seat in tribunals and institutions) still we were losting voice in comparison to bigger countries. (we were the weakest form 6 big countries)

When we look on sarkozy and merkel policy and their european solidarity ...

I understand Irish people.

Polish president was doing everything to make this treaty less harming for smaller countries...

now small country rejected this treaty.

Whole idea of deeper integration is cool ;) but shouldn't be done on cost of small countries. It would be oligarchy of 6 the biggest.

Ireland would have bigger taxes (Poland as well) because France and Germany are annoyed by healthy liberal competition.

we have much more examples like that.

How to say it idea was great but I am not surprised that small country rejected compromise made on their cost.

Maybe Polish proposal of givin more voices for smaller countries was good.
szarlotkaThreads: 14
Posts: 3,349
Joined: Feb 20, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 07:56 /  #
SeanBM:
What have the E.U. ever done for Ireland?


Given them quite a bit of dosh?

URL
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:01 /  #
SeanBM:
What have the E.U. ever done for Ireland?


Are you kidding?

Since joining the EU in 1973 Ireland has received over €17 billion in EU Structural and Cohesion Funds support.


URL

Ireland is looking now much better than before, doesn't it?
Other question, what has Ireland ever done for the EU?

But maybe they just did!
They showed that as it is now the EU becomes/is non-governable. It is now just to big and far spread as to reach an unanimous consent in every question.
Changes must be made! Majority decisions like in all democratic countries will be the future I think.
Maybe even the mantra that all countries have the same voice in all decisions and at all costs needs to be re-considered.
There are many people who believe rather in a Europe of two velocities...even the possibility for countries to leave the EU if they don't/won't fit must be considered ...
tomekThreads: 1
Posts: 147
Joined: Jun 12, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:04 /  #
The idea of a referendum in a democratic system is that it may turn out to be accepted or refused. We should be happy that Ireland did make a decision of their own despite the whole pro-european propaganda.
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:06 /  #
Lukasz:
this treaty was made in way to give more power for big countries on cost of small countries.

When I contact Ireland this is what my family and friends tell me. But also that it is 600 pages long and not clear.
Obviously I was joking about what have the E.U. done for Ireland but at what cost? Before the E.U. I was a big sceptic, my main worry was that the E.U. would be a rumplestiltskin, and after spinning us gold would want our first born. It seemed Ireland was so desperate that not many people thought about the consequences, that the E.U. would want something back. Ireland is supposedly neutral and I always thought it would be mandatory for the next generation to join the E.U. army and go off and fight to the death in other countries for some politician in the E.U.
Like a lot of European countries we fought and died for out freedom, and do not think we are so foolish just to hand that freedom away so easily.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:07 /  #
tomek:
We should be happy that Ireland did make a decision of their own despite the whole pro-european propaganda.


Who is we?

And against what were they actually voting? I doubt that the voter ever once read the treaty of Lisbon at all...it was rather a protest vote just for protesting!
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:10 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
Are you kidding?

Yes of course I was joking.
Bratwurst Boy:
.it was rather a protest vote just for protesting!

what makes you say that?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:16 /  #
First, really very few people which discuss it have ever really read the whole paper...(experience).

Most people does just have not the clue how the EU works and what that really would mean for the people, how that would really influence their lives, what it would change etc.

Many see not the good but often just a bad foreigner who wants to much influence...more a gut feeling than anything else.
Not much to do with real facts.

I'm against the treaty because it would actually cementing the EU as it is now and I personally don't believe that it is workable in the long run.
I believe some countries like Germany and France and a few others should work closer together and not be so depending/accomodating to much smaller countries as it is now.
Those who pay more should also have to say more...bluntly said!

Also the unanimous consent which is needed in all questions makes the EU a lame duck, no business would be running for long if every
janitor could stop the decision process...the business would close down soon! (just see Ireland now).

If we want the EU to work good and well int the future important changes NEED to be made...
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:20 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
First, really very few people which discuss it have ever really read the whole paper..

Have you read it?

Bratwurst Boy:
Those who pay more should also have to say more...bluntly said!

Of course you would say that, but do you really think that smaller countries are not going to want to have a say about their future and affairs?

I totally agree that people need to be educated more about the workings of the E.U..
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:24 /  #
SeanBM:
Have you read it?


Nope :)
Can't be arsed to...(and that from an EU-supporter)!

SeanBM:
but do you really think that smaller countries are not going to want to have a say about their future and affairs?


Not at the costs of the workability of the EU!!!

Before the big enlargments consent could be reached between the core countries too even if there were differences too.
If a small country can demand to get his way without any regard for
the whole EU then something is not right!
It borders on blackmail...
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:32 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
Nope :)

I don't think anyone has, I think there are actually only 5 pages, the rest are blank to save on ink.
Makes this whole thread a bit dodgy,
Has nobody read the Lisbon treaty???
Imagine Hollywood made a movie out of the treaty, MelGibson directing, coming to a cinema near you!
I know what you mean though, but there must be some workable way where big and little countries can do this. You say blackmail I say dictatorship. But Europe has come out with some of the greatest minds in history, I am sure we will find a happy medium, just not this time
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:36 /  #
SeanBM:
I think there are actually only 5 pages, the rest are blank to save on ink.


Very probably! :):):)

SeanBM:
I am sure we will find a happy medium, just not this time


Agreed...
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 08:36 /  #
Ok now without quotations.

Europe without deeper inegration is going to be weak player in global competition.
There is no symphaty between some EU countries ... but what will happen when we will stop right now ...

Now Irealand is going to see what does it mean to lose "popularity" in Brussel (we Poles know something about that ;) )

...

I support idea if givin more power for small players. Veto is stupid solution, simple stronger voice for smaller countries is good idea.

We will see what will happen
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:44 /  #
Lukasz:
I support idea if givin more power for small players


How should that work?

How can a business work if there are maybe ten different opinions and nothing can be done till all ten (just an example) will agree....
Not only that it will take eternal till they can agree to a solution (if at all that is), it also means that the solution can't be the right, quick one because it is so much discussed about and changed and watered down that the Business has to close down after a while...

But at least all ten could discuss, happy now?
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:44 /  #
Just because Ireland goes for quality not quantity, why should we have less of a voice?
I don't think that this is going to break up the E.U. we just need to find our way. It is a new time for Europe and although we love to fight over every little thing, I think we are united to make it work
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 08:46 /  #
Right now there is only one solution....those who actually keep the EU alive and afloat should have to say more!

I see no other solution right now...
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 08:57 /  #
HHHhhhmmmm....
There is a massive flaw to all this, nobody has read the treaty, part of it could say that you need to wear odd socks on Tuesdays.
Does this Kill th E.U Bratwurst Boy? I doubt it. Even you said you are pro EU, which most Irish people are of course, and yet nobody read it.
Is this not more of an issue of how to effectively inform people so that they can make the right choice? My money is still on Mel directing, we could make a few quid on it and all!
And there are always other solutions. Negotiations are powerful, make Ireland think it has a say and make Germany think they don't. And have the truth somewhere in between.
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 09:02 /  #
our proposal was to give votes based on square roots of populations (the bigest countries would be the strongest but there would be change in proportions) later we agreed for other solution ...

I feel that many europeans wated our solution but their politicians had different ideas, our Kaczynski at least represented in some way : Polish society (medium sized country)

Now Irish rejected treaty so we are going to see what do they think about it.

Irish politicians were strongly supporting EU treaty ... but society ... not.

Ok Irish rejected this decission and we are going to see what will happen.

What their politicians are going to say etc. Their proposals their ideas their solution.

Once again I am not surprised by referendum out come. It is pity that their politicians haven't represented their society durring negotiations.

SeanBM:
Europe has come out with some of the greatest minds in history, I am sure we will find a happy medium,

agree. Irish nation is one of my favorites, Ireland have been fighting for their independence for so long time ...

what is more, Irish people are very nice and I like them as people ... we could learn a lot from them (more smilling :) ) .

It seems that Irish people are beter negotiators than their politicans. :)

I understand your fears and I believe we are going to find solution.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jun 13, 08, 09:12 /  #
Maybe the politicians have read it but most of the society not?

Anyway...Ireland showed how the need for unanimous consent is killing not the EU but the workability of the institutions...people will think again about that and that is a good thing!
SeanBMThreads: 41
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Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 09:19 /  #
Lukasz:
Irish nation is one of my favorites

now i see why you have a sweet as your picture ;))

I also think Irish people do not really trust the politicians.
People fear they are just sucking up to the E.U. and do not have the good of Ireland at heart, but rather their own pockets. I know a dishonest politician is not a new thing, to any of our countries, there just needs to be more education about the E.U.
I hear the same in every country I go to in Europe, that people are afraid their liberties will be taken from them.
And people understand that wars do not have to be a marching army but can be slight changes, slowly eroding our freedoms.
The E.U. is new and I do want it to work, infact we are all lost if it doesn't.
I understand that things need to be dealt with quickly and asking every single person their opinion on a topic would take for ever plus a day. But we also can't allow the freedoms of a people to make decisions for themselves be taken away.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 09:34 /  #
But something has to give...which country would be working if every citizen would be asked about every decision and consent would be needed?

It wouldn't!

If a country can't live with it it must be free to go...I don't see why we should hand out so many millions and only be seen as the frightful boogie man!
Irland profited like not many other countries, where were they today without the help of the EU?
Now all this talk about the "horrible" EU sounds just ridiculous!
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 10:01 /  #
EU is good idea, but this treaty/constitution was written in way that the bigest countries would be oligarchs. Whole deal was on cost of small countries.
Poland wouldn't be in the worst situation after this deal. Still it was very harming treaty for countries like Ireland.

Maybe smaller steps are better ?

We have the same fears, I believe we are going to find solution and EU will move forward.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 10:04 /  #
You still didn't explain how such a huge business can effectively work if so many people have a say and a consent must be reached before anything could be done?

How can that work in your opinion?
LukaszThreads: 73
Posts: 2,396
Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Jun 13, 08, 10:08 /  #
We are new I EU. We know rules we have here. It seems that before we joined this organisation, somebody established rule that everybody have to agree on some deals.

It seems that Ireland used this option.

So somebody haven't respected their fears.

and they are old member.

not new ...

we need to find other solution.
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 10:12 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
If a country can't live with it it must be free to go.

So what, Ireland should leave, or be kicked out? "so long and thanks for all the fish"
If that happened we would be forced to close every Irish bar in Europe, that only happened twice before, yes you got it, the first and second world war.
So be careful what you say.
Bratwurst Boy:
Now all this talk about the "horrible" EU sounds just ridiculous!

And nobody is saying that, it is just peoples worries, you know like an emotional response.
Lukasz:
Maybe smaller steps are better ?

I agree
Bratwurst Boy:
How can that work in your opinion?
It is impossible to answer this because non of us know what the Lisbon treaty is, ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jun 13, 08, 10:15 /  #
SeanBM:
"so long and thanks for all the fish"


No...thanks for what???

And I'm not starting to read the treaty now! :)

But really...there are no ideas from both of you....I know why...because you have none!
It can't work as it is now..I repeat: Something has to give!
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		  Jun 13, 08, 10:16 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

No...thanks for what???

And I'm not starting to read the treaty now! :)

But really...there are no ideas from both of you....I know why...because you have none!
It can't work as it is now..I repeat: Something has to give!

HA ha ha ha ha ha ha
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