EU Hypocrisy Regarding Polish Shipyards

scorpio:

"The European Commission has announced that state aid granted to the Szczecin and Gdynia shipyards as illegal and must be repaid, but it also gave Poland until the end of May 2009 to sell-off the yards in a move to save jobs and production."

Sure, it's ok when entire banks operating within the EU are on the verge of bankruptcy and governments are bailing them out. Just look at Iceland, a non-EU member which is going bust as well. Iceland has just been approved to receive a $6 billion IMF loan along with a consortium of European countries contributing to the package. Poland recently stated it's portion of the loan to Iceland will consist of $200 million. Wait a minute...all of these banks and an entire country (Iceland) are being prevented from going bankrupt, however, the shipyards in Poland must face it's destiny, to either survive or go bankrupt. This sounds like hypocrisy.

scorpioThreads: 26 Posts: 196 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Nov 7, 08, 22:01 / #
"The European Commission has announced that state aid granted to the Szczecin and Gdynia shipyards as illegal and must be repaid, but it also gave Poland until the end of May 2009 to sell-off the yards in a move to save jobs and production." Sure, it's ok when entire banks operating within the EU are on the verge of bankruptcy and governments are bailing them out. Just look at Iceland, a non-EU member which is going bust as well. Iceland has just been approved to receive a $6 billion IMF loan along with a consortium of European countries contributing to the package. Poland recently stated it's portion of the loan to Iceland will consist of $200 million. Wait a minute...all of these banks and an entire country (Iceland) are being prevented from going bankrupt, however, the shipyards in Poland must face it's destiny, to either survive or go bankrupt. This sounds like hypocrisy.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Edited by: mazzastaffordsh Nov 16, 08, 11:49 / #
You are quite right scorpio. This EU business is just a big "con"trick. We are sick and tired of our "ordinary" men and women losing their jobs and then their homes. Our government keeps telling us that there are jobs out there. Where we keep asking are these jobs? There is a great deal of corruption out there in the many countries of the EU. Large football clubs, business consortiums, wealthy celebrities and they all avoid paying their tax. Why does the Inland Revenue never call in these types of debts? The only people being paid good money now are these footballers and celebs. It is stupid that the same people that are being evicted from their homes are the same people that have had their money sent to help these banks. I wonder why the people that have debt problems could not just pay a nominal rent to the banks and then when things pick up they can come to some other arrangements to continue on with their mortgage. No one needs then to lose their home. Is this too easy a solution or just a no go area?

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Nov 16, 08, 11:51 / #
I support EU in this decision we spend 15 bilions zlotys on help for them and they haven't changed annything. Now we are going to spend it on hi-tech or univerisites. EU supports Polish tax payer.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 16, 08, 11:58 / #
Sometimes it takes people who are hard workers who can use their hands (not brain) skills to get countries out of the mire. Where have our educated politicians got us? Education is sometimes a way of keeping people off the dole here in the UK thus keeping the true jobless figures down. We need more people with genuine skills plumbers, carpenters, electricians etc. Instead of educated morons who can talk the talk but not work the work.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Nov 16, 08, 13:25 / #
scorpio: This sounds like hypocrisy. This is hypocrisy. Here you have a situation where politicians and bureaucrats have too many competences. If we would strip them from these competences, all badly managed companies would bankrupt, while other which would be better managed would replace them on the market. mazzastaffordsh: e are sick and tired of our "ordinary" men and women losing their jobs and then their homes. Our government keeps telling us that there are jobs out there. Where we keep asking are these jobs? I see that you are from the UK. Although I definitely oppose the EU, I see that a lot of migrant workers from Eastern Europe have no problems to find a job in your country. mazzastaffordsh: Large football clubs, business consortiums, wealthy celebrities and they all avoid paying their tax. Why does the Inland Revenue never call in these types of debts? This is because socialism which rule in Europe is a favorite system of big business. Why would big business compete on the free market if they have enough of cash to bribe few politicians and bureaucrats whom have so much to say. Smaller companies cannot afford such policy and thus they are bombarded by insane regulations either from Warsaw, London or Brussels. Big concerns wont allow socialism to be removed easily because then they would lose their comfort of being privileged. Prince: I support EU in this decision we spend 15 bilions zlotys on help for them and they haven't changed annything. Now we are going to spend it on hi-tech or univerisites. EU supports Polish tax payer. So you want to give money to other companies? While I agree with Mazza that university produce "products" of doubtful quality and usefulness on mass scale.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Nov 16, 08, 13:29 / #
lesser: So you want to give money to other companies? I want this money back :) and EU is right in this case. Shipyards had their chance. I would like to spend this money on education or hi-tech inovations.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Nov 16, 08, 13:37 / #
Prince: I would like to spend this money on education or hi-tech inovations. While I have no problem with you spending your money, I have no idea why do you want spend my money or other taxpayers?

welshguyinpolaThreads: 32 Posts: 462 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Nov 16, 08, 13:41 / #
I hate to say this, but the Polish shipyards are just a drain on resources and the only reason they stay open are to keep unemployment low and because of tradition and the links to solidarnosc. All Poland needs is a prime minister like the Uk had inj the reign of thatcher and im sure the shipyards will close. Thatcher wasnt afraid to close down the mines in the UK in the face of massive unemployment, she realised mining was a fading industry and coal imports were cheaper than our own stuff. It hit especially hard in Wales but it was a necessary evil. Stocznia in Poland is an archaic instution and the sooner Poland realises this the sooner it can move on.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Nov 16, 08, 13:48 / #
welshguyinpola: Stocznia in Poland is an archaic instution and the sooner Poland realises this the sooner it can move on. I agree with you. :)

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 16, 08, 14:39 / #
Hi lesser, you are quite right that many migrant workers have come to the UK. I welcome them with open arms as far as I can but you see my cousin came here and he was a very willing worker and was doing anything that he could find. I am very happy for anyone who can make a living over here. We do have many lazy people who will never work. Now then to get back to the Polish people. I have seen for myself how some of these people are living. It is very inhumane. Our unscrupulous landlords are having them paying extortionate rents, as many as 10 or more to a flat, some with children as well. The trouble is that our own English workers cannot work for the minimum wage and pay the cost of heating, lighting, feeding families. We have to pay council tax of over £100 per month minimum. Schools do not have the resources to teach the Polish children as they not only have to settle into the school system but they have to master the language too. This is not a problem for me personally but it is hard on the young children. To welshguyinpoland. I too thought Mrs Thatcher was a very principled lady. Yes the mines probably were inefficient also, but what did she think would happen when we had to close all the mines, how long would import of coal reamain cheap? Why is our energy so expensive now, because she sold off our energy companies, railways, bus services etc. Yes yes I know business has to be efficient which brings me on to the people that have become unemployed by Thatchers policies. Where are all the miners etc going to earn a living? I hear the words retrain coming to mind. Retrain to what? Mrs Thatchers plan was to make England a "service" country. A country of commerce - this means to me banking, insurance, call centres etc. This was fine but these jobs have now gone to a place called India. We make an enquiry at the bank and it can take an hour or so to sort out a problem. Education was then the subject, get everyone to go to university. Well this is already proving a problem because more and more people are getting degree's thus more and more people are going for the better jobs. The degree is devalued because so many people have got one. I think what I am trying to say is that some common sense needs to prevail. Not everybody wants education they want a trade where they can learn bricklaying, plumbing etc.This way they can earn some money without being a drain on the state. Where I live we had pottery companies, steel works, engineering, farming and agriculture. The masses were employed. It is going to need great vision for our country, we are judged by how much money we have. You will always have lazy people unfortunately. Anyway sorry for going on and making this seem like a sermon but please Mrs Thatcher was no angel, and she had a load of "yes men" around her because no-one actually stood up to her and say that some of her ideas were not so good. Also do you know how many people are leaving here now because they can no longer afford to live on the low wages that they earn

F15guyThreads: 1 Posts: 230 Joined: Jan 14, 08	Nov 20, 08, 13:36 / #
The EU is not alone. The US is undergoing a similiar industrial catharsis. Some of our industries are not competive with the world market. Toyota, Honda, etc. have an hourly wage cost of $45 to $50 an hour compare to GM, Ford and Chrysler's $75/hour. Yet, GM and Ford both have competitive plants in the EU. GM is doing well in China. During WW II, the US could build ships. They built liberty ships faster than the Germans and Japanese could sink them. Those businesses no longer exist. Sixty, seventy years ago St. Louis was known as a major shoe and clothing manufacturing area and small towns within 100 mile radius had a factory producing shoes and clothing. Not any more! Keep it up consumers and governments. Eventually everything will be made in China and no one will have jobs to buy it.

welshguyinpolaThreads: 32 Posts: 462 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Nov 20, 08, 15:30 / #
Ok mazza, enough already. Our health service is unique in the world in that its completely free. It is being completely stretched by the sheer numbers of people in our country. How can we expect the quality to be high. If you want a good service, take out a BUPA healthcare scheme, its not that expensive and the service is top class. In Wales we have free medicene for everyone but we cant expect to have this and a top service. Are you in favour of raising taxes in order to improve our health service? Where could the money come from? These people who cannot afford the above mentioned BUPA scheme seem to be able to afford a SKY+ satellite system, internet connection and all of life's little luxuries. If it is calculated how much the average family spends on these litlle luxuries they could well afford a basic medical insurance package.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Dec 10, 08, 15:33 / #
Hello again to all those people who doubted that I was not telling the truth about the state of our local hospital here in Staffordshire. The headline on page 3 of our local Sentinel Newspaper - Hospital chief quits as A & E delays hit hard. A lady by the name of Val Doyle departed as chief operating officer at the University Hospital of North Staffordshire after 11 months in the job. Her resignation comes after queues grew even longer in the accident unit and brought increasingly biting criticism from the public. These highly paid people seem to have no idea how to solve the problems at this hospital. We are in another dilema too - we have a brand new hospital in the process of construction and guess what? It has 250 beds less than the existing hospital. The patient figures do not add up how can the new hospital cope with less beds? Is anybody sorting this out yet or will it be left until a bigger problem happens in a couple or so years time? Can it be sorted - I wonder? How is the hospital system in Poland compared to the UK one? Would love to hear from anyone with experience of your system.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 10, 08, 17:52 / #
How about those ships? ;)

welshguyinpolaThreads: 32 Posts: 462 Joined: Jan 9, 08	Nov 16, 08, 15:08 / #
I agree with what ur saying but my father was a miner and of the 2000 people that were unemployed from my area of Wales after the mines closed, 98% found jobs in other companies. My father learned things in the mine that he could take to other companies ie. he became a qualified welder and now works for lansing linde as a team trainer for a very good salarry. Most of his friends are in the same position. I have even heard him say that he was thankful the pits closed now cos he would have been stuck there for the rest of his life, he had no motivation to better himself. This is the same for all the workers at the shipyard, if they are forced to better themselves they will. Everyone is comfortable with being stuck in a rut.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Nov 16, 08, 15:18 / #
welshguyinpola: This is the same for all the workers at the shipyard, if they are forced to better themselves they will A good example might also be the Tyneside shipyards. Ship building on the Tyne and Wear, at one time, was the busiest in the world.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 18, 08, 13:59 / #
Hello again. Yes I understand what you are saying about the dockyards etc, times are a little different now though. Just from around here for example take JCB Diggers for instance, they are making 400 people redundant this is on top of the previous at a guess 400. This has a knock on effect to all the other smaller engineering businesses as the manufacturing of parts is contracted out (JCB only assemble they do not actually make any parts) This brings me on to say that just in such a small area that I am mentioning there will be over 1000 people losing their jobs. Now where I ask are all these people going to find work? All the industry around here has gone. Even the supermarkets are working with minimum staff. All those years ago when it was pit closures, dockyard closures etc the country was at least starting to pick up and there was often retraining schemes. Plus the miners had lucrative pension and redundancy packages (not all I know, my father being one of these) I have friends who lost their jobs in the pits and they have looked after their money and have made investments etc and when they retire they will have a reasonable pension due to the money put into their pension packages. Many many people around here have no such packages. So they will not be having a great Christmas just a letter telling them to not bother to come back in the New Year. Has anyone seen the Gun Wharf Quays in Portsmouth? They have done a fantastic job down there building apartments and shopping complexes together, but the cost of this housing is £250,000 minimum. The same has happened at Poole. Liverpool Docks also has a shopping complex at their docks. How much shopping can people keep on doing. Yes jobs are created but it is all too much all about shopping I think. We are told not to use our cars and yet out of town shopping complexes are still being built. People have to use their cars, how else are they going to get to their place of work? I am sure that Poland has many skilled workers and so has the UK and all the out of work people do not want to work in retail business. We need governments to invest in its own people teach people a trade, when they are trained many could earn a living without being a burden on the state and who knows new business would start again. One other thing I have noticed about Poland they have a transport system that appears to work. Over here it is useless. Too many leaves on the line or wrong sort of snow stops all trains. If you wait for a bus it doesn't turn up and then an hour later we get 3 in a row to the same place - true, no joke. Could I be the next Maggie? Don't think so Mazza doesn't sound the same. Again only joking!!!

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Edited by: mazzastaffordsh Nov 19, 08, 13:11 / #
On top of the JCB jobs it is now Wedgwood Pottery 346 jobs to go. Royal Doulton went ages ago so yet more bad news. How are things in Poland?These are just local jobs being lost not national job.

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Nov 19, 08, 13:16 / #
things in poland are so far so good. fortunately the banks were not advanced enough or too restricted to gamble their money in the american markets

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 19, 08, 13:46 / #
Unfortunately we are told that the UK has a special relationship with America so what goes on there the UK follows. It is really stupid. In the UK we say America sneezes and the UK catches the cold. Again it is our stupid politicians they are educated idiots I think. It is time the UK stopped fighting other people's wars and to look after our own people. At our local hospital we had the emergency department so over loaded with sick people that the ambulances had to leave old people outside on a trolley with just a blanket until they could be moved inside. The old people also had not even got a pillow for their head and instead had dirty folded up blankets to use to rest their head on. Believe me it is getting really crap over here in the UK is there room for the Brits in Poland I wonder? Well behaved ones I mean.

TopicalpostThreads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 19, 08	Nov 19, 08, 16:14 / #
mazzastaffordsh: At our local hospital we had the emergency department dar di dar, dar di dar, dar di dar. As someone who works in the health sector I don't believe your post, it sounds to me like an extract from The Daily Mail, sensational and exaggerated. Sure things go wrong in the NHS but they do in all industries and the NHS is as much an industry as any other large employer. 'Life is really getting crap here in the UK' come on get a life, you are living in one of the richest countries in the world, do you know what it is like to go hungry, to be cold, to have no future, nothing to look forward to, no you don't, even the poorest people in the UK would be rich compared to the majority of people in this world. If you are so dissatisfied with your lot in the UK I would suggest you try looking within yourself instead of blaming others.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 19, 08, 16:45 / #
Hi Topicalpost everything that I have put on my post is very true and not something that I have made up, I do not even need to read a daily paper as I have eyes and experience. If we are one of the richest countries in the world why are our elderly people having to choose whether to eat or heat their homes? This is a true statement. After having worked all their lives the state pensions are a pittance. People are loosing their jobs at JCB, Wedgwood, local engineering business's, shops (oh yes this country is good at building more and more shops).As for me you are right I did not go hungry because my Polish father worked hard all his life and when he needed medical treatment he was let down by the NHS industry that you speak of. He died on a filthy hospital ward. It was that bad that the hospital actually apologised to us. I do not need to look inside myself at all I live my live my life doing the best I can for my family, I have looked after a grandmother until she died at the age of 91 years, my mother is an invalid now after having had a hard life bringing up us - her family. People are losing their homes because they are buying a home on a mortgage and cannot afford the repayments. If other people who live in rented accommodation cannot pay the rent they get it paid by the state - think this is crap. The UK must be seen by some as a very rich country I agree but it is our money that the government have used to bail out the banks - why should this be? I have worked hard all my life and at this time this country is definately not the country that it was. If you would care to check out the papers over here you would read what is happening. I am not telling lies there is no point in that.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Edited by: mazzastaffordsh Nov 20, 08, 08:01 / #
A further message to Topicalpost.I have today had a copy of our local newspaper and you will find this on www.thisisstaffordshire.co.uk and this is the site of our newspaper The Sentinel. The headline I draw you attention to "The tumour's grown...and I'm running out of time" She requires Sutent treatment for kidney cancer. She has been told that she will have to wait until January to find out if she can have this drug. Mrs Hopkins is 70 years old and has sent the following letter to the care trust about her delay for this drug. How can a system like this be fair and just? Please consider the people of this country.I have always felt that if I can understand something, and it is morally fair, then I can accept it. But I have not spoken to one person who can accept what is going on with this postcode lottery and I cannot believe the way that I, and others like me, have been treated. It is inexcusable, that people can be treated like this in 2008. If it is happening now, then what have our young people got to come in future years? I think, as do many others I have spoken to to, that things need to change. Our people need to be looked after in a fair, decent and moral way - a way that can be judged as fair to all and not just some. What she means by postcode lottery is that it depends on which part of the country you live because different areas only supply and fund certain cancer type drugs. Now then I will also tell you the following conversation when my father was in hospital. Dad - Oh dear I need a bed pan quickly Me- right I will find a nurse Nurse - I am busy (doing what I don't know) Me = I think you had better sort my dad out Nurse says to Dad - I am busy just do it in your bed and we will clean you up later Please don't tell me that I am making this up IT HAPPENED. I have witnesses, this is just one factor of the reason that the hospital apologised to us.I was also going in to the hospital at meal times to feed my father because if I or another family member didn't go he would not have had anything to eat. At one time he wanted a drink and he had to have it through a straw (this had gone missing) I asked a nurse and she said to me Oh look its under the bed, then she left. I had to go to the kitchen to get my dad a clean straw. Needless to say he also caught MRSA Yes things have started to improve but believe me there is no lie in any of my information - it is so true I would take a lie detector test. Finally could I say that for you to go La di dah or what ever it is appears to me to be very rude. The NHS is not as you say an industry it is a service, there is a big difference in these two words. Everyone in the UK pays National Insurance payments from their wages and we pay all sorts of other taxes for this service. This is just some of the reasons that I feel that this country has gone down bank. The impression of us being one of the richest countries in the world is again down to money and not about the people of our country especially the young and the old. EAT OR HEAT IS A VERY TRUE STATEMENT Lets hope that this does not go to Poland.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 20, 08, 12:48 / #
Sorry about this guys I know you will probably fed up of my posts now but just to say Rolls Royce GKN BAE Systems Astra Zeneka Yes even more redundancies. Watch Out It is happening and could be in your country soon. No I am not lying either

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 20, 08, 14:14 / #
Hey don't forget that the Royal Doulton products that America loved so much are now from Indonesia.

RenaNortonThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Nov 12, 08	Nov 20, 08, 17:38 / #
Hello Mazza. I see that you have worked very hard to explain the situations, both in this country, and in Poland. All I can say is that everything you said is true as I experienced a lot of it myself. and I stand behind you in full support. Very well said, Mazza.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Nov 20, 08, 17:55 / #
Hello again welshguyinpola could you explain to me how the NHS is free? We pay National Insurance contributions and taxes that go into the system.You ask where would the money come from for a better system. Well what about a portion of the lottery money. If just 1 weeks profits went towards the NHS I don't think too many people would complain after all most of us will need the NHS at some point in our lives. Do you know how many people have had operations done privately and when an emergency has arisen they have had to be transferred to a NHS hospital because the private one does not have an emergency service. It is fine if all goes well, but well if things go wrong you take your chance that you do not die in the ambulance on the way to a NHS hospital. Please don't tell me this is not true because it does happen. When we get our wages after having worked hard and payed all our dues why should we not have some of life's luxuries as you put it, what do we go to work for if not for some happiness? We do not get prescriptions free like you do in Wales but I would rather pay for prescriptions and get a good hospital service. By the way did you know that our hospital here in North Staffordshire have closed down the kitchens and the food is purchased and delivered from a company in Wales? What happens when the snow falls in Wales? Do our patients go hungry? The food is so bad that patients are having relatives bring in food for them. Please don't tell me this is not too either. Try checking out our local newspaper The Sentinel. I am tired of being accused of lying by some people on this forum. Everything I am putting out is TRUE. Thanks for your support RenaNorton I am doing my best on this forum to let people know what it is like over here for the ordinary working man but not getting very far because people think I am lying.

mazzastaffordshThreads: 3 Posts: 100 Joined: Oct 8, 08	Dec 3, 08, 13:07 / #
Just a quick message to Topicalpost. I happened to be at our local hospital on Friday 21st November and there was great excitement in the accident and emergency department. What was the cause of this excitement - a consignment of pillows had been delivered. The staff were so delighted they could replaced the blankets at people's heads with a pillow. Now tell me again that I have been lying if you dare. I was there myself and saw it with my own eyes.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Dec 10, 08, 11:41 / #
scorpio: "The European Commission has announced that state aid granted to the Szczecin and Gdynia shipyards as illegal and must be repaid, but it also gave Poland until the end of May 2009 to sell-off the yards in a move to save jobs and production." Sure, it's ok when entire banks operating within the EU are on the verge of bankruptcy and governments are bailing them out. Just look at Iceland, a non-EU member which is going bust as well. Iceland has just been approved to receive a $6 billion IMF loan along with a consortium of European countries contributing to the package. Poland recently stated it's portion of the loan to Iceland will consist of $200 million. Wait a minute...all of these banks and an entire country (Iceland) are being prevented from going bankrupt, however, the shipyards in Poland must face it's destiny, to either survive or go bankrupt. This sounds like hypocrisy. This is because EU wishes to sell the yards to Rothschild cronies...'Gives Poland to 2009 to sell them off'...Who the hell are they!?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Edited by: delphiandomine Dec 10, 08, 18:11 / #
Seanus: How about those ships? ;) Well, there's definitely enough allegations floating around CalMac circles in Scotland that these shipyards aren't the only ones that were illegally subsidised :) Having said this, it's painfully apparent that there's no real need for as much shipbuilding capacity as they've got in Poland.