Hugo Chavez and the European Union

JohnP:

Like...errr....shutting down his opposition, or ending term limits, to allow himself to remain in power ....pass laws by decree...
And speaking of "free" elections, if they call threatening to roll tanks if the opposition wins a "free" election, then the rest of us have been doing it wrong the whole time!

MrBubbles:

Venezuaela for instance is the only country to break diplomatic ties with Israel over the disgustng recent invasion of Palestine. I heard he's also making stronger ties with Cuba to get them on their feet again.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Feb 11, 09, 22:05 / #
This is funny how mainstream European media criticize Venezuelan communist dictator Hugo Chavez! Why? Because he ordered to repeat referendum that he lost in recent past. Goal of this referendum is to extend his powers. This heart-breaking story of poor Venezuelan people sounds quite familiar! :) Constitution of the EU and Lisbon Treaty (of course this is almost the same document) was rejected in referendums in recent past. Eurocrats wanted to extend their power. Currently they plan to hold another referendum in Ireland. The same European media that criticize Chavez these days, advise our politicians to ignore will of the people at home ground. This is just unbelievable hypocrisy. :) However did you notice the EU officials criticizing Chavez? Perhaps I missed... Nice example enlightened Europeans give to developing states! I see some common thought of our euro-socialists and Venezuelan communists, perhaps they should consider the idea of some anti-American red axis? Let kill great satan together! :)

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Feb 12, 09, 13:38 / #
lesser: communist dictator Hugo Chavez! Communist maybe, dictator no. He was democratically elected by the majority of Venezualan voters in an election at least as transparent as others in that region.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Feb 12, 09, 16:47 / #
jonni: Communist maybe, dictator no. He was democratically elected by the majority of Venezualan voters in an election at least as transparent as others in that region. Lukashenko was also democratically elected and I think that he felt to be a dictator perhaps even from the first day in office. This is not the question of how one would win number one post. This is the question of respect for the law, principles that he follow. At least as far as liberal democracy is concentrated. Perhaps you are correct if we define democracy to be the terror of majority. This is interesting that you seems to accept double standards. It look like in some countries elections (including election campaign) might be less transparent than in others to be considered 'democratic'. Of course this is opinion of European political circles as well, if you follow OECD activity. Poor Lukashenko have a bad luck of leading unimportant country at the border of the EU, thus Belarusian elections doesn't count. :)

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Feb 12, 09, 16:56 / #
lesser: I see some common thought of our euro-socialists and Venezuelan communists, perhaps they should consider the idea of some anti-American red axis? Let kill great satan together! :) Chavez is doing some great stuff in South America. He's one of the few world leaders who stands by his principles. Venezuaela for instance is the only country to break diplomatic ties with Israel over the disgustng recent invasion of Palestine. I heard he's also making stronger ties with Cuba to get them on their feet again. Viva Chavez!

JohnPThreads: - Posts: 544 Joined: Sep 8, 07	Feb 12, 09, 17:46 / #
MrBubbles: Chavez is doing some great stuff in South America. Like...errr....shutting down his opposition, or ending term limits, to allow himself to remain in power ....pass laws by decree... And speaking of "free" elections, if they call threatening to roll tanks if the opposition wins a "free" election, then the rest of us have been doing it wrong the whole time! John P.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: MrBubbles Feb 12, 09, 17:49 / #
JohnP: Like...errr....shutting down his opposition, or ending term limits, to allow himself to remain in power ....pass laws by decree... And speaking of "free" elections, if they call threatening to roll tanks if the opposition wins a "free" election, then the rest of us have been doing it wrong the whole time! So what? I'd sell my right to vote for a pint, fat load of good it does me. I say again: MrBubbles: Venezuaela for instance is the only country to break diplomatic ties with Israel over the disgustng recent invasion of Palestine. I heard he's also making stronger ties with Cuba to get them on their feet again.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Feb 12, 09, 18:00 / #
MrBubbles: Chavez is doing some great stuff in South America. Oh yes he does! I fully agree with you, communist system was always efficient, just capitalist owned media run massive campaign to discredit all its achievement. But history will proof us right, equality was achieved, people eat grass and shit, all of them! Viva Chavez! Viva the EU!

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Feb 12, 09, 18:11 / #
“The Venezuelan economy in the Chavez years”, a study released in July by the Centre for Economic and Policy Research, reveals massive social gains for the poor and working people in Venezuela as a result of the pro-people polices promoted by the government of socialist President Hugo Chavez. http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/726/37678

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Feb 12, 09, 18:37 / #
According to wiki Centre for Economic and Policy Research The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is a progressive* economic policy think-tank based in Washington, D.C.* On a number of occasions, CEPR staff members have defended Hugo Chavez and his policies.[1][2][3] Well... progressive economic policy think-tank? :) :) I must say that I would reject their claims if not unquestionable economic authority of the Australian Green Leftists :) :) :) MrBubbles: http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/726/37678

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Feb 12, 09, 22:00 / #
lesser: jonni: Communist maybe, dictator no. He was democratically elected by the majority of Venezualan voters in an election at least as transparent as others in that region. Lukashenko was also democratically elected and I think that he felt to be a dictator perhaps even from the first day in office. The Belarussian elections were as bent as a nine pound note - but paradoxically they didn't need to be since Lukaszenko enjoys huge popular support, especially outside large towns. Chavez however does seem to have the best interests of the poverty-stricken majority at heart. If he was less dictatorial, the former Venezuelan ruling elite, the US government and neighbouring countries would walk right over him. I can't in all conscience condone some of his tactics, but I take my hat off to any South/Central American leader who neither sets up death squads or organises a military coup.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 12, 09, 22:40 / #
I think he provides an interesting counterbalance to the global dynamic encompassing Russia and America. Putin, with alacrity, seized the chance to get in there and do business. Like a buzzard he was. Chavez took a principled approach to the Gaza conflict, good on him. Other ponces sought ceasefires that were never gonna happen. The tide of the election process in Israel determined that. The man holds some cards that, while not being aces, will make the big players ponder. The EU, amongst others, tamed Gaddafi. Chavez can be tamed too.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 12, 09, 23:16 / #
If he started supplying Hamas with weapons, that'd be worthy of attention. Don't underestimate the deeper significance of forming allies and forging ties around the world, lesser. International relations are often more intricate than you think. Chavez has aspirations to be a big player on the world stage. In a future World War, Venezuela may prove to have a part to play.

BartolomeThreads: 2 Posts: 1,345 Joined: Sep 14, 06	Feb 12, 09, 23:22 / #
Seanus: Chavez has aspirations to be a big player on the world stage. In a future World War, Venezuela may prove to have a part to play. As an oil provider for the US Army after an invasion.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 12, 09, 23:23 / #
Hugo has a few skeletons in the cupboard but he has had a massive effect on the balance of power in South America. He has done a lot for the lower classes in Venezuela where he does seem genuinely popular, although not universally popular it has to be said. He also knows the value of good PR, such as providing cheap heating oil for the low income families of the USA. He has also developed networks so that the whole region can be more autonomous

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Feb 12, 09, 22:34 / #
jonni: The Belarussian elections were as bent as a nine pound note - but paradoxically they didn't need to be since Lukaszenko enjoys huge popular support, especially outside large towns. I know but I would not overestimate this support that he enjoy. We have not objective data to estimate real figures. I'm curious how Russia's decision of stopping friendly prices policy for oil and gas affect his popularity. jonni: Chavez however does seem to have the best interests of the poverty-stricken majority at heart. Well, this is home ground of every populist. This is why I think that voting should not be free of charge. jonni: I can't in all conscience condone some of his tactics, but I take my hat off to any South/Central American leader who neither sets up death squads or organises a military coup. If he would organize such 'events' then Americans would take care of him. Beside of that I don't criticize him because he is a dictator. All I'm interested is policy that he realise. Open minded dictator is worth of support, this is perhaps even several parliamentary cadences of wise leadership. Unfortunately usually dictators are freaks obsessed by control mania.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Feb 12, 09, 23:10 / #
Chavez's stance on Israel have really so little importance, this is not worth of attention. However I just realised that this is another common stance of Chavez and the EU, support for Palestinians. I read recently list of non-EU states that have signed trade agreement with the EU. Imagine this, Palestine was included and Israel was not!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 12, 09, 23:26 / #
I was thinking more about his relationship with Russia. It is these so-called 'rogue states' that can spring surprises and up the heat at critical moments. He's the kind of guy that forces the hand of players. I'd laugh my head off if Sarkozy wanted to do business with him and he ended up in a 1-star hotel. What on earth does Chavez have to do with the EU? Russia can supply them with all they want.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Feb 12, 09, 23:39 / #
Seanus: Venezuela may prove to have a part to play. With a character like Chavez, it is possible for a country to punch above their weight. Despite his name, he is not a chav.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 12, 09, 23:46 / #
Imagine the headline, 'Chavvy comes to London to join his brethren' :)

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 12, 09, 23:50 / #
Chavy came to London and gave Ken some cheap oil didn't he ?

BarneyThreads: 16 Posts: 1,630 Joined: May 26, 08	Feb 13, 09, 00:13 / #
Lesser welcome to the world of Democrazy. Hugo cannot be described as a dictator by any rational non government sponsored propagandist (hi Yehudi.....when's the next war?) The only imposition is the diktat that it is our way or the highway. Hugo isnt perfect just different from the dictatorship of rampant consumerism. JohnP: JohnP All your links are a bit dubious....lets take one "shutting down a free press" read this http://www.medialens.org/alerts/07/070613_chavez_and_rctv.php Would that be tolerated in the USA?

JohnPThreads: - Posts: 544 Joined: Sep 8, 07	Edited by: JohnP Feb 13, 09, 03:49 / #
Barney: All your links are a bit dubious.... My links were primarily from BBC and Reuters...and for what its worth, the things alluded to in the links...are in plenty of other links. So by "dubious" you mean "BBC". Or is it simply links to news you dislike that qualifies as "dubious"? The man did win a huge popular election, however there is another side to this also, regardless of how much you like the guy. Funny, He and Putin alluded to our last President being the devil...yet our last President DID step down, without trying to change the rules to allow him to remain...odd.... Just saying. John P.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Feb 13, 09, 10:26 / #
lesser: If he would organize such 'events' then Americans would take care of him. Unfortunately their track record in that region suggests they've covertly or overtly supported more death squads and military regimes than they've dealt with.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Feb 13, 09, 11:04 / #
JohnP: our last President DID step down, without trying to change the rules to allow him to remain Beeeep! Wrong answer! "The US Department of Justice (DoJ) and the office of the White House Counsel are preparing a draft document laying out the President's wartime authority to remain in office past 2008, The Register has learned. The scheme is described as an emergency "continuity presidency," made necessary by the extraordinary circumstances and unique challenges of protecting the United States from the threat of international terrorism." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/04/01/gwot_cha/ Maybe this is a hoax but where there's smoke, there's fire. Anyway, why would he have to try for a third presidency when the next president dances to the same tune?

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Feb 13, 09, 11:51 / #
Seanus: If he started supplying Hamas with weapons, that'd be worthy of attention. I think that Americans would invade Venezuela if he would start to supply terrorists. This is very attractive localization duo to natural resources. szkotja2007: Hugo has a few skeletons in the cupboard but he has had a massive effect on the balance of power in South America. You can write about geopolitical balances all you want but still the name of the only decent state in this continent is Chile. Less serious part of European crowd will of course blame 'great satan' for this horrible outcome. osiol: With a character like Chavez, it is possible for a country to punch above their weight. Yes and fall down quickly from the clouds of its own megalomania. Barney: Hugo cannot be described as a dictator by any rational non government sponsored propagandist I see that Hugo have many big fans in western Europe. If I would wish you 100 years under communist regime, you would be glad or upset? :) JohnP: My links were primarily from BBC and Reuters These are well known ultra-right-wing, reactionary mouthpieces. jonni: Unfortunately their track record in that region suggests they've covertly or overtly supported more death squads and military regimes than they've dealt with. What was the alternative to those military regimes?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 13, 09, 13:53 / #
Well, they'd have their pretext, that's for sure. Lesser, does Israel terrorise? Do they strike terror into their victims?

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Feb 13, 09, 14:47 / #
Seanus: Well, they'd have their pretext, that's for sure. Lesser, does Israel terrorise? Do they strike terror into their victims? By my old fashioned standards, yes. In the 'royal Europe' wars were fought between monarchs, ordinary people stand out of it. After French revolution Europeans became obsessed about their national identify, this ideology spread beyond Europe. Today, war this is issue between some certain nations. One could write that war got democratized as well. Thus we witness crimes against civilian population on regular basis. On other hand those civilians are often engaged on the side of their national forces. In Palestine this is even hard to differ who is armed 'freedom fighter' and who is just civilian. While yesterday's civilians might be today's fighters. People are so stupid...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 13, 09, 14:53 / #
We can cut through some of the academic obfuscation and water muddying to see that a terrorist is anybody who terrorises. If the recent Gaza debacle doesn't fit into that category, I don't know what does. Anyway, this is about Chavez. I remember one Parliamentary session where a substantial American delegation was present and he didn't mince his words. Quite amusing to see him let loose and act in such a way.

Shawn_H	Feb 13, 09, 15:02 / #
Seanus: he didn't mince his words. Quite amusing to see him let loose and act in such a way. Like the following... "Yankee Imperialist? GO HOME"

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Feb 13, 09, 15:04 / #
Seanus: We can cut through some of the academic obfuscation and water muddying to see that a terrorist is anybody who terrorises. If the recent Gaza debacle doesn't fit into that category, I don't know what does. I mean that terrorism is part of modern war, every war. Seanus: Anyway, this is about Chavez. and the European Union! :)