Kaliningrad. Problem, Threat or Opportunity?

Salomon:

Kaliningrad is Russia. Poland has problems with sea transport by the part of the sea controled by Russians. Russians have problem with transport goods from and to Russia. In my opinion both problems can be easlily solved.

In case of good will from both sides Kaliningrad can look like for example Gdynia... with torusists and trade. Poles and Russians in neigbourhood would gain a lot, current situation means lost opportunities and potential for Nord East Poland and Kaliningrad.

I find Kaliningrad as opportunity for great business, both for Russians and Poles.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 25, 09, 17:07 / #
Oh my dearest Polish friends. It is an open secret that Russian Federation has odd territory which name is Kaliningrad region. What do you think about it? What do you feel hearing this name? Is it a threat for Poland or opportunity? If it is the former, what do you propose to solve the problem?

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Apr 25, 09, 17:26 / #
First of all the name is Królewiec and it's a Russian Trojan horse in the region.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Apr 25, 09, 17:28 / #
What do the people of Kaliningrad think about the situation with Kaliningrad? Does Moscow really care about the place? As far as I can see, this little exclave of Russia is pretty much ignored economically and is just there so that Russia can have it's own little western outpost border with Poland. It is surrounded on all sides by EU member states, all with better economies.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Apr 25, 09, 17:46 / #
Boris Jeltsin allegedly wanted to give Królewiec back to Poland, but our government wan't interested - a big mistake IMO (but then again we could have problems incorporating such a huge Russian minority).

MarcinKThreads: - Posts: 56 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Apr 25, 09, 18:07 / #
ConstantineK: What do you think about it? I think it's a territory definitely in political-economic limbo, but nothing near Transdnestr. ConstantineK: What do you feel hearing this name? That they should change it. Definitely the Russian version of whatever Królewiec and Konigsberg translate into, 'king city'. Wouldn't that be Czarograd? ConstantineK: Is it a threat for Poland or an opportunity? I don't see it anywhere near a threat, but I do see it as an opportunity squandered. I read that some Kaliningradians wanted to turn it into the 'Baltic Hong Kong', I have serious doubts about that, but to improve the situation means adopting a liberal policy in travel, commerce and borders; I haven't seen Moscow or Warsaw supporting such a thing in the past, present and that should say something about the future. osiol: What do the people of Kaliningrad think about the situation with Kaliningrad? I'd have to ask the same. osiol: Does Moscow really care about the place? That too.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Apr 25, 09, 19:02 / #
Torq: Boris Jeltsin allegedly wanted to give Królewiec back to Poland, but our government wan't interested - a big mistake IMO Who wrote this fairytale? They wanted to give away and you didn't agree? Come on, wake up! I see a tendency of liking to bang oneself in the butt for the sake not to tell the truth because Russians are so scary - boo! Let's hide our heads in the sand and keep our butts high in the air because - boo! boo! I am scared - help me!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Apr 25, 09, 19:07 / #
Nathan: Who wrote this fairytale? They wanted to give away and you didn't agree? Come on, wake up! I see a tendency of liking to bang oneself in the butt for the sake not to tell the truth because Russians are so scary - boo! Let's hide our heads in the sand and keep our butts high in the air because - boo! boo! I am scared - help me! What the fcuk are you on about? Seriously, man - I read the post quoted above three times and I have no clue what the fcuk you wanted to say. Does anyone else have trouble understanding what Nathan is talking about, or is it just me? confused

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Edited by: Borrka Apr 25, 09, 20:23 / #
Kaliningrad is probably the best example of our Interslavonic cooperation and brotherhood I know. It's something to make our Crow finally happy ! Well organized Polish-Russian gangs are smuggling cheap cigarettes and liquor from enclave to the European Union. Mobsters from Belorussia give logistic support to their Slavic partners and brethens - they don't need Russian visa and Belorussian truck drivers have no problems with Shengen as well. The entire Kaliningradskaya Oblast' looks like being nuked recently (or rather "Chernobiled") but according to Crow the Prophet it's a kind of the future Slavonic paradise .

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Apr 25, 09, 20:38 / #
Kaliningrad is Russia. Poland has problems with sea transport by the part of the sea controled by Russians. Russians have problem with transport goods from and to Russia. In my opinion both problems can be easlily solved. In case of good will from both sides Kaliningrad can look like for example Gdynia... with torusists and trade. Poles and Russians in neigbourhood would gain a lot, current situation means lost opportunities and potential for Nord East Poland and Kaliningrad. I find Kaliningrad as opportunity for great business, both for Russians and Poles.

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Apr 25, 09, 20:55 / #
Torq: Does anyone else have trouble understanding what Nathan is talking about, or is it just me? Unless you understand the notion of new Ukranian nationalism, you won't be able to grasp what Nat says. Well done, Nat! :)) Keep it up. Though I'm sometimes not sure if you're serious or having fun...

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 25, 09, 23:02 / #
dannyboy: 3. Join a Lithuanian Federation And collapse Lithuanian economy within a week due to sheer poverty.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Apr 25, 09, 23:14 / #
ConstantineK: The problem is that everybody promises Poland something, but still there was no such stupid who would keep his promises. She remind me honest provincial simpleton who gives in to the first comer in vain attempt to get married and to move in the city. Oh put sock on it First you exterminate 2/3 of polish ruling class which constituted brain and then you subjected Poland to 40years of occupation. And now you keep spiting your petty moans all over this forum well why dont you kiss your own ass

dannyboyThreads: 24 Posts: 298 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Apr 25, 09, 23:19 / #
Sokrates: And collapse Lithuanian economy within a week due to sheer poverty. Not at all. It would receive colossal EU funding. The diffculty would be in trying to ensure the tinpot dictators did not syphen the money off into their own pockets, as has always been the problem in Eastern Europe. Part of the reason Ireland was such a success compared to other countries receive EU funding was because, usually, in Ireland the money was spent where it was supposed to be spent. As we've seen in Bulgaria and other parts of Eastern Europe, this along with political corruption is one of the primary obstacles facing the development of Eastern Europe. In truth, it will probably be a hundred years or more before Eastern Europe and the former communist nations will catch up to the economic development of the Western and Central Europe, but there is potential for massive growth - if only there were less corruption.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 25, 09, 23:23 / #
Sokrates: And collapse Lithuanian economy within a week due to sheer poverty. Come on boy, wake up! Lithuanian economy already collapsed. So we should talk about joining it into RF.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Apr 25, 09, 21:24 / #
Salomon: Kaliningrad is Russia. Poland has problems with sea transport by the part of the sea controled by Russians. Russians have problem with transport goods from and to Russia. In my opinion both problems can be easlily solved. In case of good will from both sides Kaliningrad can look like for example Gdynia... with torusists and trade. Poles and Russians in neigbourhood would gain a lot, current situation means lost opportunities and potential for Nord East Poland and Kaliningrad. I find Kaliningrad as opportunity for great business, both for Russians and Poles. Well said. This is just populist politicians from both sides making troubles for ordinary people.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 25, 09, 21:46 / #
Torq: Boris Jeltsin allegedly wanted to give Królewiec back to Poland,but our government wan't interested The problem is that everybody promises Poland something, but still there was no such stupid who would keep his promises. She remind me honest provincial simpleton who gives in to the first comer in vain attempt to get married and to move in the city.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Apr 25, 09, 22:07 / #
lesser: This is just populist politicians from both sides making troubles En example of Polish trouble makers pls.

dannyboyThreads: 24 Posts: 298 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Apr 25, 09, 22:44 / #
Torq: Boris Jeltsin allegedly wanted to give Królewiec back to Poland, but our government wan't interested - a big mistake IMO (but then again we could have problems incorporating such a huge Russian minority). Don't you mean give it back to Germany? Why would they give it to Poland? There are 3 realistic options for Kaliningrad. 1. Remain within the Russian Federation 2. Cede the Federation and join the European Union 3. Join a Lithuanian Federation Given current geo-politics, 3 is not possible. Therefore it has to be 1 or 2. The only case where 2 will happen is if the Russian Federation collapses and Russia becomes a number of smaller independent countries. This is quite unlikely and rapidly becoming less likely as Russia is growing in economic strength, not diminishing. Therefore, Kaliningrad will remain within the Russian Federation for the forseeable future. In answer to the OP, I have a number of friends who have travelled to Kaliningrad. I don't believe anyone sees Kaliningrad as a threat, in fact, many are grateful for its existence as they have been able to acquire jobs they would otherwise have been unable to acquire.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Apr 25, 09, 23:19 / #
dannyboy: Why would they give it to Poland? I don't know really. Just a rumour I heard about (I think that I read about it in some old issue of "Najwyższy Czas"). The webpage below says that Gorbachov wanted to give Lwów, Wilno, Stanisławów, Grodno and Tarnopol to Poland as well. http://www.polonica.net/Kresy_Wschodnie.htm I can't say how credible that is, but there were rumours like that circulating. dannyboy: 3. Join a Lithuanian Federation What is Lithuanian Federation?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 25, 09, 23:23 / #
dannyboy: Not at all. It would receive colossal EU funding. EU does not fund everyone it feels like, it funds regions it has business in funding, Kaliningrad would receive squat.

dannyboyThreads: 24 Posts: 298 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Edited by: dannyboy Apr 25, 09, 23:24 / #
Torq: What is Lithuanian Federation??? There is no Lithuanian federation. I assume you know what a federation is, so the easiest explanation I can give you is to have a brief study of the Swiss Federation and compare like for like. Effectively, Kaliningrad would become a 'canton'. This is also the proposed political system for Ireland when it will be united with the North of Ireland. It is successful in giving regions a large amount of autonomy, while still maintaining unity. Of course, language and cultural barriers will always be a problem, as we have seen Belgium has been rocked to the core in recent years. This is the primary reason why it would not be returned to Prussia/Germany or joined with Poland - i.e. you can still speak Russian in most Lithuanian cities with the exception of Kaunas. Then of course, the issues with geography and shared past. i.e. the Russian Diaspora. Ultimately of course, this is mental chewing gum at the moment. Geo-politics would exempt any such scenario until there is normalisation of relations between the Baltic and Russia...................which could be some time away. I think the biggest issue at the moment in Russia's eyes, is a potentially impending civil war in the Ukraine, between the Western Nationalists and the South Eastern Pro-Russian communities.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 25, 09, 23:37 / #
Ironside: First you exterminate 2/3 of polish ruling class which constituted brain Poles&brains? Are you joking dude? You don't need them, you have you president, it's enough.

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,756 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Apr 25, 09, 23:53 / #
ConstantineK: Poles&brains? Are you joking dude? You don't need them, you have you president, it's enough. hahaha, funny to hear that from russian. i tell you a little anegdote about the difference between polish and russian mentality: when pole hears 'jump' he asks 'why'? when russian hears the same question he askes 'how high'? it would take you a long long time to grow up to democracy and free thinking after the centuries of mental slavery tovarisch costya

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 26, 09, 00:03 / #
McCoy: when pole hears 'jump' he asks 'why' That is why you have a tendency to loose everthing you have.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Apr 26, 09, 00:06 / #
ConstantineK: Poles&brains? Are you joking dude? ... ConstantineK: That is why you have a tendency to loose everthing you have. We may not have much brains but at least we know how to spell "lose" :-)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 26, 09, 00:15 / #
Torq: We may not have much brains but at least we know how to spell "lose" :-) No doubt, you have a good opportunity to practicise you english during repairing drain pipea throughot europe :)

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,756 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Edited by: McCoy Apr 26, 09, 00:16 / #
clear you slave mind from tzars propaganda and taste the joy of life. leave your russian prison and take a breath of fresh air instead of inhaling the putins farts and repeating thats its better than french perfiumes. i know costya that you are russian and even if you are not as stupid as you seems to be, you have to pretend being one. youve got only one life. why spending it in mental chains?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Apr 26, 09, 00:17 / #
Ironside: First you exterminate 2/3 of polish ruling class which constituted brain and then you subjected Poland to 40years of occupation. Well Polish case wasn't so horrible like Russian ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_Brystiger The instructions given by Brystygier to her subordinates were as follows: In fact, the Polish intelligentsia as such is against the Communist system and basically, it is impossible to re-educate it. All that remains is to liquidate it. However, since we must not repeat the mistake of the Russians after the 1917 revolution, when all intelligentsia members were exterminated, and the country did not develop correctly afterwards, we have to create such a system of terror and pressure that the members of the intelligentsia would not dare to be politically active Of course Constantine doean't calculate this long term effect on Russian nation when he glorifies changes in Russia in years 1917 - 1945. Honestly saing Russians have done the biggest damage for their own people durring communism.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 26, 09, 00:24 / #
Salomon: Of course Constantine don't calculte this long term effect on Russian nation when he glorifies changes in Russia in years 1917 - 1945. Why shouldn't I? The same was during French revolution. Just wait another 100 years and you will venerate Russian revolution as French one.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Apr 26, 09, 00:26 / #
ConstantineK: No doubt, you have a good opportunity to practicise you english during repairing drain pipea throughot europe I'd rather "practicise" repairing "pipea" (sounds dirty lol) "throughot" Europe than be some village idiot in Asia :-)