Libertas - what chances does the new party have in Poland? In Europe?

lesser:

Those very few who don't mostly oppose the EU in general and are considered to be enemies by the rest. There is no debate, there is no democracy.

lesser:

I want to destroy only overwhelming bureaucracy and bring back the EU to original version. I think about something like free trade and free travel zone. You could also claim that I want to destroy Poland because I oppose to appetite of central government as well.

You could also claim that I want to destroy Poland because I oppose to appetite of central government as well.

lesser:

Lisbon Treaty itself wont do that but general tendencies, I mean vocal support for abortion among eurocrats and extension of EU competences, lead me to conclusion that this might be just one treaty or regulation away.

lesser:

It is not army but definitely move in this direction.

The Treaty foresees that member states can make available civilian and military resources to the Union for the implementation of its Common Security and Defence operations.

lesser:

The number of Commissioners will be reduced from 27 to 18, so you can expect that the smallest states wont be awarded. In case of Ireland this is very possible. You would be really optimistic to think that such small states manage to have commissioner permanently.

Personally I don't care whether Poland have its own commissioner. I would even find this very funny if Poland would not be let to chose one commissioner.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	May 28, 09, 21:53 / #
Libertas - Libertas is a political party founded by Declan Ganley that intends to take part in the European Parliament election, 2009 in several member states of the European Union. .....also in Poland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas_Party What is Libertas` opinion on Europe exactly? I heard the main part of their ideology is to reject the Lisbon Treaty, but they are generally not against the EU, they only want to improve it. No formal manifesto was published at the convention.[42] Instead, Libertas's core principles were displayed on its website[43] and reiterated at its convention,[42] namely accountability, transparency, democracy and rejection of the Lisbon Treaty. Each member party and individual member is obliged to adhere to these core principles,[34] although they may add additional policies as they feel appropriate.[42] Affiliate parties are not obliged to so adhere. Libertas has messed the Polish political scene a lot. It hired Lech Walesa to deliver speeches at their rallies. It is developing its Polish branch with the help of nationalists and radical Catholics. But polls are not favourable to them - in Poland they will probably get about 2% support at the European elections. I am curious what you think about it? During 3 May parade in Krakow: nationalist All Polish Youth members march behind the Libertas banner.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	May 28, 09, 22:04 / #
Apparently they are not so nationalist as you say if they approve an idea of pan-European party which advocate the EU to have a president?

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,552 Joined: Apr 11, 08	May 31, 09, 14:15 / #
It'll be a miracle if Libertas acheives the 5% threshold needed to send memebrs to the EP. What I can't understand is the amount of fear this party has instilled in the mainstream politicial class. What are they afraid of? Libertas will probably always be a minority or niche party if it gets into the EP at all.

daffyThreads: 40 Posts: 2,118 Joined: Feb 5, 07	May 31, 09, 20:43 / #
Libertas is more a thorn in my opinion. In Ireland during the referendum, they would not publish how they funded there campaign. Something all parties must do here in Ireland. I would imagine that 2% estimate in Poland is accurate enough. They do not hold much sway here either, Declan Ganley the leader has an opinion poll rating of 9% but that wont transfer to votes is my guess. Lisbon failed in Ireland due to the Politico's failing to reassure the people. They more or less assumed it would just pass - this in my op, was the main problem. Groups like Libertas lambasted the treaty and the gov't was like, thats not true, that wont happen, where are you getting this from? It was a load of bull the libertas scaremongering. But the gov't failed to deal with treaty properly. Ireland's No vote was unfortunately more a protest of out gov't then the treaty.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	May 31, 09, 20:48 / #
It is because there is hardly any pluralism in Europe. There are some issues that you cannot disagree with political mainstream, otherwise you are "excluded from public debate". If one of those excluded miraculously find some space in mainstream media (Ganley because he stopped Treaty of Lisbon cannot be ignored), political elites start massive verbal attack and try to discredit political opponent by all means. Recently I have read that Merkel said that she refuse to shake a hand to anybody who oppose Treaty of Lisbon... This is unbelievable arrogance. PS: I will NOT vote for Libertas.

bullfrogThreads: 4 Posts: 379 Joined: Apr 23, 09	May 31, 09, 21:23 / #
lesser: Recently I have read that Merkel said that she refuse to shake a hand to anybody who oppose Treaty of Lisbon... This is unbelievable arrogance. Where did you hear that, lesser, again on Polskie Radio through a translator? Your avatar says it all...

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser May 31, 09, 22:07 / #
www.euractiv.com/en/eu-elections/turkey-shocked-franco-german-election -rhetoric/article-182187 The French press, for its part, interpreted Merkel's statements as a veiled attack on the UK Conservative party. "Those who refuse the Lisbon Treaty - which would allow us to work better and to take aboard new members - but who still talk about enlargement, we refuse to shake their hand," the AFP agency quoted Merkel as saying. bullfrog: Your avatar says it all... We agree here! You still did not answer my questions. Should the EU respect results of Dutch and French referendums? How many times the Irish should be forced to vote?

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,552 Joined: Apr 11, 08	May 31, 09, 22:35 / #
According to the Eurocrats and Eurofanatics, the Irish should vote for Lisbon (a slightly warmed-over version of the Constitutional Treaty rejercted by the French and Dutch) as many times as required until they vote the right way, ie the way Brussels want.

delphiandomineThreads: 40 Posts: 9,587 Joined: Nov 25, 08	Jun 5, 09, 01:39 / #
Will Ireland be brave enough to veto Lisbon a second time? They blew it with Nice (which also needed a second referendum, if anyone remebers) - and this time, the stakes are going to be even higher than ever. I wouldn't be surprised if Irish anger at the economy spills over into another No vote - and if it happens, then Lisbon is almost certainly dead. Kaczynski's signature isn't assured either - if PiS do badly in the European elections, then he might very well take it out on the Treaty and refuse his signature. But Walesa's pursuit of the cash is nothing short of disgusting. The Irish guy laying the flowers at the Solidarity Priest's grave was enough to turn me firmly against Walesa - and his comments recently are showing him to be more and more out of touch.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Jun 7, 09, 22:29 / #
Libertas got 1%. http://www.tvn24.pl/0,10455,0,1,raport.html 4 parties entered the EU parliament: PO - 45%. PiS -30%. SLD- 12% PSL - 8% The attendance was 27%.

daffyThreads: 40 Posts: 2,118 Joined: Feb 5, 07	Jun 10, 09, 11:04 / #
pawian: I wonder how much money was wasted in the campaign of Libertas in Europe. Yea, although, the cost of a good opposition is priceless....not saying they were good (more scaremongering).

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 10, 09, 23:49 / #
pawian: I wonder how much money was wasted in the campaign of Libertas in Europe. Judging by results, not that much. If not free promotion organized by Farfal average Pole would hardly notice their existence. We don't know exact numbers about Libertas but estimations were made how much case the EU spent on propaganda all over Europe. http://www.openmarket.org/2009/01/05/the-eu-propaganda-machine/ Government propaganda is always irritating, especially because that means politicians are taxing citizens to pay for a snow job for those same citizens. The European Union is no different than the U.S. in this regard. The group Open Europe has published a new study detailing EU propaganda efforts: Open Europe has published new research which shows that the European Union is spending billions of euros a year promoting itself and its central aim of ‘ever closer union’. In 2008 alone, it spent more than 2.4 billion euros. That is more than Coca Cola spends on advertising each year, worldwide

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Jun 11, 09, 01:37 / #
So happy they didn't get in!!! Transparency and truth won over Ganley's lies.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jun 12, 09, 20:15 / #
WooPee: Transparency and truth won over Ganley's lies. Ganley lacking transparency? The EU is certainly not transparent either. So, I ask about what kind victory of transparency you write? Obvious double standards. Write also about this 'truth' by the way... Let everybody know. /and now, you may pretend that my questions were never asked

daffyThreads: 40 Posts: 2,118 Joined: Feb 5, 07	Jun 9, 09, 18:12 / #
And Declan Ganley (Libertas leader) was not elected in Ireland either.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Jun 9, 09, 20:25 / #
daffy: And Declan Ganley (Libertas leader) was not elected in Ireland either. I wonder how much money was wasted in the campaign of Libertas in Europe. I don`t pity them, especially those Polish hard-core politicians who joined Libertas and lost. Serves them well. :):):)

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 9, 09, 21:03 / #
I think that the only politician who won a seat from Libertas across the EU is Philippe de Villiers, French version of Marek Jurek.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Jun 9, 09, 21:49 / #
lesser: Villiers reminds me of vile.... :):):)

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Edited by: WooPee Jun 13, 09, 01:26 / #
lesser Transparency of source of his funds, they came from nowhere. He should also speak publicly about breaking Irish law by refusing to public sources of publish campaign. Unfortunately Irish law is too friendly for scum like him. What kind of lies? Lies during Lisbon Treaty campaign for example. Also lies of Libertas' plans, different stories in different countries, depend on what people want to hear. Good that people kept their eyes open after all.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 14, 09, 14:19 / #
WooPee: lesser Transparency of source of his funds, they came from nowhere. He should also speak publicly about breaking Irish law by refusing to public sources of publish campaign. Unfortunately Irish law is too friendly for scum like him. I neither defend or support Ganley. I just point out to you double standards, because you doesn't seems to be even interested about complete lack of transparency in bureaucratic EU. You demand transparency only from your political opponents. WooPee: What kind of lies? Lies during Lisbon Treaty campaign for example. Name three for example. Such general statements bring nothing to discussion. If you wish I can name few lies of EU establishment about Lisbon Treaty. Hopefully you are interested, so?

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Edited by: WooPee Jun 15, 09, 06:24 / #
lesser: I neither defend or support Ganley. I just point out to you double standards, because you doesn't seems to be even interested about complete lack of transparency in bureaucratic EU. You demand transparency only from your political opponents. I demand transparency from everyone and, which may surprise you, I oppose current government in Brussels. But instead of you, I believe in creating, and I believe we are able to live in peaceful, democratic and transparent Europe and I believe we can bring that change. You want to destroy everything. That's the difference between you and me. lesser: Name three for example. Such general statements bring nothing to discussion. - after Lisbon Treaty abortion will be legal in Ireland - Lisbon Treaty creates European Army - Ireland will lose commissioner All above from libertas. lesser: If you wish I can name few lies of EU establishment about Lisbon Treaty. Hopefully you are interested, so? Sure I am.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 16, 09, 19:42 / #
WooPee: I demand transparency from everyone and, which may surprise you, I oppose current government in Brussels. I'm surprised indeed but mostly because you appears to see a difference between previous and current government. There is no rival fractions in the EU, you can witness how vast majority of MEPs support European Commission. Those very few who don't mostly oppose the EU in general and are considered to be enemies by the rest. There is no debate, there is no democracy. WooPee: But instead of you, I believe in creating, and I believe we are able to live in peaceful, democratic and transparent Europe and I believe we can bring that change. You want to destroy everything. That's the difference between you and me. I want to destroy only overwhelming bureaucracy and bring back the EU to original version. I think about something like free trade and free travel zone. You could also claim that I want to destroy Poland because I oppose to appetite of central government as well. WooPee: - after Lisbon Treaty abortion will be legal in Ireland Lisbon Treaty itself wont do that but general tendencies, I mean vocal support for abortion among eurocrats and extension of EU competences, lead me to conclusion that this might be just one treaty or regulation away. WooPee: - Lisbon Treaty creates European Army It is not army but definitely move in this direction. The Treaty foresees that member states can make available civilian and military resources to the Union for the implementation of its Common Security and Defence operations. WooPee: - Ireland will lose commissioner The number of Commissioners will be reduced from 27 to 18, so you can expect that the smallest states wont be awarded. In case of Ireland this is very possible. You would be really optimistic to think that such small states manage to have commissioner permanently. Personally I don't care whether Poland have its own commissioner. I would even find this very funny if Poland would not be let to chose one commissioner. WooPee: Sure I am. - They claim that Lisbon Treaty will make the EU stronger and able to compete with other empires (China, the US, Russia). While inside of the treaty we can find totally socialist Charter of Fundamental Rights. - They say that they oppose death penalty but Treaty of Lisbon re-establish death penalty in case of "war, riots, upheaval". This is pretty scary! - They say that Treaty of Lisbon is shortened version of rejected constitution. In fact, it is even longer and much more complicated.

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Edited by: WooPee Jun 18, 09, 18:31 / #
lesser. lesser: Those very few who don't mostly oppose the EU in general and are considered to be enemies by the rest. There is no debate, there is no democracy. No democracy? All MEPs comes from democratic elections. Every region can chose its own MEP to represent their interest. You should respect will of the people even though you disagree with the result. The public sent them there. I disagree with the fact that socialists and conservatives are in power again while liberals are far away, but I respect that that. The fact that you disagree with the results of the debates doesn't mean that there's no democracy there. Also the fact that Parliament cooperates with the Commission is a good thing in my opinion. The last thing we need there are argues and speculations against one another. lesser: I want to destroy only overwhelming bureaucracy and bring back the EU to original version. I think about something like free trade and free travel zone. You could also claim that I want to destroy Poland because I oppose to appetite of central government as well. The original EU is not a free trade and free travel zone. It's free trade but ONLY in the coal sector and visa requirement. Well, you have a right to have any kind of Europe you want to see. You could also claim that I want to destroy Poland because I oppose to appetite of central government as well. Well, if I'd see Polish flag with swastika on your avatar, or the white eagle and communist symbols on his chest, the last thing I would say is that you're friend of Poland.. Don't be surprised that people seeing you embarrassing European symbols see the man who hates. lesser: Lisbon Treaty itself wont do that but general tendencies, I mean vocal support for abortion among eurocrats and extension of EU competences, lead me to conclusion that this might be just one treaty or regulation away. I'm always wondering, how people can oppose something they don't know. The Lisbon Treaty clearly says that matters such as same-sex marriages or abortion can be regulated ONLY by national governments, not Brussels.. lesser: It is not army but definitely move in this direction. The Treaty foresees that member states can make available civilian and military resources to the Union for the implementation of its Common Security and Defence operations. Another "but what if.." kind of argument. Common Security and Defence term in Lisbon Treaty means a catastrophe caused by nature or human. Example: - help after earthquakes, floods etc (those are catastrophes caused by nature) - nuclear power plant breakdown, mass scale natural contamination (those are caused by a human) I believe military aggression from outside can be also attached to "catastrophes caused by human" folder, but I it will ever happen. lesser: The number of Commissioners will be reduced from 27 to 18, so you can expect that the smallest states wont be awarded. In case of Ireland this is very possible. You would be really optimistic to think that such small states manage to have commissioner permanently. Personally I don't care whether Poland have its own commissioner. I would even find this very funny if Poland would not be let to chose one commissioner. First of all, what difference does it make where the commissioners come from? They don't work for their governments, they don't work for interest of their country, but they work for Europe. It doesn't mean that if some Pole would become agricultural commissioner then Polish farmers would achieve more money than others.. They just do their job there. In the Irish case, yes they would lose the commissioner after Lisbon Treaty (not for forever tho), but without Lisbon Treaty they would lose commissioner even quicker. In my private opinion the whole commissioner system is sick. I believe that every party should nominate their own commissioners and after that run in the elections to let the people decide. National governments should have no interest in that.

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Edited by: WooPee Jun 18, 09, 18:48 / #
lesser: - They claim that Lisbon Treaty will make the EU stronger and able to compete with other empires (China, the US, Russia). While inside of the treaty we can find totally socialist Charter of Fundamental Rights. What is so socialistic there? The chapter about my rights to vote or my freedom of religion? Can you explain that for me? - They say that they oppose death penalty but Treaty of Lisbon re-establish death penalty in case of "war, riots, upheaval". This is pretty scary! Let me ask you something.. Let's say there is a war and your country is occupied by some evil forces, those forces commit a muss murder on civilians everyday. But there is one brave citizen who shot and killed the commander of those forces with his rifle. According to today's law that citizen would be put in jail for lifetime. Of course it shouldn't be allowed during the peace-time, but war is different story. - They say that Treaty of Lisbon is shortened version of rejected constitution. In fact, it is even longer and much more complicated. It's almost the same as the Constitution, but almost means a big difference here. After the constitution has been rejected, EU funded a poll to ask people why they voted NO. Poll showed, that beyond completely dumb arguments, like "because I don't like my government" or "because my president sent our troops to Iraq", there were real arguments against the Constitution, such as the one that showed that many people disagreed to have an official European anthem, or make the EU flag as important as the national one, and also few other arguments. All of those were removed form constitution + they added Chapter of Fundamental Rights which already has been ratified by many countries and called it The Lisbon Treaty. Pretty fair in my opinion.