More and more jobs moving to Poland from other parts of Europe...

Foreigner4:

yeah i see what you wrote but it reads a lot like a more detailed rendition of what i had alluded to. All countries (and by countries, i mean people) lose in the situation you've described. The only winners are the execs.

I'll make my addition to the obvious:
The poor worker in Sri Lanka isn't in any elevated social status, the wage he isn't earning as compared to what a unionized worker would get are just bigger earnings for the "company." And other than the stock holders and execs, who else is the company?

Coles notes version:
Worker abroad-exploited
Unionized work-fired
So who wins?

outintheyard:

Hello All good people and others. I have been out in the yard laborious catching up so to speak. I have not been working since I lost my employment of 20 years. They just told me to pack up and leave. Quite rude I must say. So I have been off line out of touch and making a go at it with out work. Doing miscelleneous job s for food etc. The enjoyment has been in geeeting to be arround my beautiful place more. Ah, only if i were a bit more wealthy. Savings go fast. Life is so much fun. I have thought of moving to another country. This does not seem to be a very good idea either. I see some new mwembers on here. Welcome. And till we meet again. Good luck to all of you.

theblueenigmaThreads: 7 Posts: 215 Joined: Aug 20, 08	Feb 25, 09, 20:08 / #
These companies will move to Poland for the time being, then when costs and salaries rise they will just move elsewhere, possibly the ukraine etc

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Feb 26, 09, 11:29 / #
SeanBM: Why didn't Del move to India?. Public help plus I believe somewhere there: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/customs/index_en.htm you can find out that tax for parts is lower than tax for finished electronic goods. At least that was the case in the past. ShelleyS: Im sure 20 years ago people who worked for BT on their customer services team, wouldn't have imagined losing their jobs to someone in an Indian call centre! I think that is the price for english as an international language :-) There are not many Indians speaking polish, german, dutch... :-) I assure you that at least in Poland we don't plan to accept english as an official language, so call centers for polish customers are safe :-) PS. Hm... curiosity is that recently in Poland opened up call centers for European customers... For example HP opened such branch in Wroclaw for French customers...

WooPeeThreads: 3 Posts: 133 Joined: Jul 1, 08	Feb 26, 09, 12:38 / #
IKEA is the next one. They want to invest lots of money in Poland. A serious money.

BB630Threads: 2 Posts: 19 Joined: Nov 15, 08	Feb 28, 09, 21:40 / #
As my brother (a skilled programmer with a MSC in Computer Science) recently noted: "All tech companies would be smart to ship their industry to Eastern Europe." Although you can also find programmers in the Asian markets, Eastern European markets are less volatile in current times, provide a phenomenal amount of skilled labor in programming, and are not publicized as locations which will have bad working conditions/pay even though the incomes are substantially lower than elsewhere. It is also much easier to maintain support staff in Eastern Europe which can communicate efficiently with individuals in European/American markets. Do you know many Indians or Chinese individuals who speak Polish, Lithuanian, Russian, Italian, French, Spanish, English and other languages? Polish individuals are very skilled in terms of the plethora of languages represented by native workers. Their English is also much easier to understand than the Indish spoken by individuals in Indian Call Centers. The best place to set up shop is there, and that can be noted by the large establishment of offices by people such as IBM, Dell, etc. in various locations throughout Poland. You are naive to think that these companies will ship anywhere except back to the U.S. in present times. If anything, the U.S. will create incentives to localize their workforce but has no incentive to move more work to Asian markets. All told, I doubt that there is much to worry about in Poland and I think people are just overly paranoid. The real people who have to worry are the individuals in the 40-50 year old range in the U.S. who are seeing their retirement funds shrivel up. These individuals rely on their retirement savings in ways in which Polish citizens never need to. 500,000USD in a retirement account by the time you reach 65 is usually not enough to live a comfortable existence in the U.S. during your final years in the big cities. We do not pay off our mortgages often, but tend to refinance to longer term loans, upgrade our homes and do other things which soak up income. The main goal of Polish people is to own their house/apartment by the time they finish working, and their other costs of living are low enough that they can survive on Social Security benefits. Social Security will not even pay for basic necessities in America. Quality of life will decrease for the average American citizen and this will affect worldwide markets marginally but not to the extent people envision. Yes this is a gross redistribution of wealth. No it is not very fair. However, the U.S. taxpayer will control a large amount of equity in these firms. In the end loans will be repaid and the general cost to the average citizen won't be deep. The real issue is going to be the growing debt that is being placed on the taxpayer due to years of deficit. I believe the shared debt is 35,000USD per citizen is the real killer. Imagine if you took a mortgage out for this amount, you would be paying roughly 350 dollars per month. This means the debt is lowering actual salaries in the U.S. by 4000USD per year. Hopefully we can rein in spending and begin to run surpluses and repay our debts abroad and to ourselves.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 28, 09, 22:13 / #
WooPee: IKEA is the next one. They want to invest lots of money in Poland. A serious money. Yes, serious money. BB630: 500,000USD in a retirement account by the time you reach 65 is usually not enough to live a comfortable existence in the U.S. during your final years in the big cities. How much do you think a Polish person gets?. And define comfortable. BB630: We do not pay off our mortgages often, but tend to refinance to longer term loans, upgrade our homes and do other things which soak up income. Why?. BB630: costs of living are low enough that they can survive on Social Security benefits. Do you actually know how much they get and what the cost of living is here?. I appreciate that things are grim in the U.S. but from what you have written, it sounds like you do not know what things are like for the majority of people in Poland.

BB630Threads: 2 Posts: 19 Joined: Nov 15, 08	Edited by: BB630 Feb 28, 09, 22:18 / #
Lets see, I'm moving to Poland. I will marry a Polish woman who is well educated and traveled with ties to Polish Government. I also have about 10 educated friends (PHD) who have informed me about much concerning various aspects of Poland including the social security system and personal finances for the average Polish individual. Edit: I should note I meant Poles, not others in Academia. I am fairly knowledgeable for a foreigner about affairs in Poland and the general way of life.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 28, 09, 22:30 / #
BB630: social security system and personal finances for the average Polish individual. So tell us.

BB630Threads: 2 Posts: 19 Joined: Nov 15, 08	Edited by: BB630 Feb 28, 09, 22:30 / #
Why do Americans not pay off their Mortgages? This is an interesting question. First off, you must consider how many rent instead of own property. Then you need to understand the concept of Tax Deductible Interest from home mortgages. We get money back from our taxes if we have a mortgage on the home we reside in. It is often better to write it off, but then you use this savings instead of saving it for retirement or paying off your mortgage. Also people often live in homes which are larger than their overall incomes can really sustain. Finally, our Social Security system is using current payments in to fund current payments out and is not functioning as intended. This will result in its eventual collapse. I could go on, but it is pointless to list all the aspects which go into how we manage our finances. All told, we are just stupid. Edit: A few hundred USD. But enough to cover the basics (food, heating, etc.) if you own your property.

RandalThreads: 1 Posts: 758 Joined: Feb 14, 09	Feb 28, 09, 23:40 / #
BB630: All told, we are just stupid. Indeed.

HappymealThreads: 14 Posts: 40 Joined: Feb 14, 09	Mar 3, 09, 18:25 / #
Because the majority of Americans and Canadians get their wants mixed up with their needs. Do you REALLY need that 4 bedroom home, big property, 2 SUV’s, and all the other toys?! I’m not saying people aren’t entitled to enjoy life and own whatever they want, I totally agree. I’m just saying people CHOOSE to put themselves in these situations. I choose to live in an apartment because it was cheaper and choose to fix my car instead of getting rid of it and buying a new one. We choose to be in 90% of the situations we are in, so if you know that you probably can’t afford that house or car if you loss your job or your partner losses their job then you probably should not buy it, or look at an alternative instead of building up MASSIVE debt. Additionally I also look at it this way, if I can’t afford to buy something from my regular pay cheques from week to week and have to use my credit card all the time then I don’t buy it! I look at my parents generation were they worked themselves so hard that by the time they could retire after 30 or 40 years of hard work they had to use their retirement savings on paying for all the health problems instead of actually enjoying life when they had the chance. I could go on for hours about this…

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Edited by: ShelleyS Mar 10, 09, 13:20 / #
Foreigner4: i'm more inclined to believe those "countries" actually do as much losing out as in countries where workers enjoy representation. Now, if you mean companies win in the end by exploiting workers where ever they are able then I'd agree with those sentiments. Countries (and by countries i mean the people in them) lose out more and more globally to the whims of multi-national execs and their cronies. It's all relative, if a company upsticks and moves to one of "those" countries, then a community loses jobs, people lose their homes, there is a whole knock on effect on the economic growth in a region. When the company sets up in the new country (say for instance asia) the expections of the workers is much lower, no health & safety regulations, no working hours directive, no minimum wage, no holiday pay, no sick pay, no maternity leave pay....in fact no rights whatsoever, it stands to reason why the product is cheaper, we live in a consumer driven society, a disposable society, wasn't Woolworths the first to introduce the bargin bins, buy it high sell it low...it's just come back to bit us in the bum really.

Foreigner4Threads: 21 Posts: 1,747 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Mar 12, 09, 13:34 / #
ShelleyS: I explained what you asked me to. i fail to see where i asked you to explain anything but if this was your understanding then i am now enlightened as to why we're agreeing with each other in extensive fashion. To be honest i hadn't thought about the fact that the company loses out due to a shrinking market. I wonder if the margins saved on salary outweigh the margins lost on sales.

Foreigner4Threads: 21 Posts: 1,747 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Mar 13, 09, 15:13 / #
this actually fits in pretty neatly to help explain the further disproportionate growth of the poor as compared to the shrinking of the middle class.

HappymealThreads: 14 Posts: 40 Joined: Feb 14, 09	Jun 9, 09, 00:23 / #
Yet, another example! Nokia Siemens to increase Poland staff by 200-400 http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8547062 HELSINKI, June 8 (Reuters) - Telecom network equipment maker Nokia Siemens Networks said on Monday it plans to hire 200-400 additional staff at its Wroclaw facility in Poland by the end of next year, a company spokeswoman said. Nokia Siemens employs 1,200 staff at the site. Nokia Siemens Networks, a venture of Nokia and Siemens, is finishing a major restructuring programme, which included cutting some 9,000 jobs, many in high-cost countries. Nokia Siemens and Ericsson are the leading players in the telecoms network market but have been increasingly challenged by aggressive pricing from Chinese vendors Huawei and ZTE in the last few years. (Reporting by Tarmo Virki and Brett Young; Editing by Jon Loades-Carter)

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Mar 10, 09, 11:10 / #
time means: The European Commission is also investigating 52.7 million euros (47 million pounds) in aid Poland gave to Dell's Polish unit. maybe something to do with it? I thought that was not allowed in the E.U. favouritism to one E.U. country? jwojcie: Public help plus I believe somewhere there: http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/customs/index_en.htm you can find out that tax for parts is lower than tax for finished electronic goods. At least that was the case in the past. Thanks for the link, I was unable to find that particular information. Perhaps it is more general than just Poland?. Happymeal: wants mixed up with their needs. Do you REALLY need that 4 bedroom home, big property, 2 SUV’s, and all the other toys? The Panel, SUVs, D4

Foreigner4Threads: 21 Posts: 1,747 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Mar 10, 09, 11:28 / #
ShelleyS: Countries with little regard for human rights let alone working conditions will always win, since they can produce a product far cheaper - we are, after all price driven, so it only makes sense that products will be imported from these kind of places, and therein lies the problem! i'm more inclined to believe those "countries" actually do as much losing out as in countries where workers enjoy representation. Now, if you mean companies win in the end by exploiting workers where ever they are able then I'd agree with those sentiments. Countries (and by countries i mean the people in them) lose out more and more globally to the whims of multi-national execs and their cronies.

Foreigner4Threads: 21 Posts: 1,747 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Mar 10, 09, 23:07 / #
yeah i see what you wrote but it reads a lot like a more detailed rendition of what i had alluded to. All countries (and by countries, i mean people) lose in the situation you've described. The only winners are the execs. I'll make my addition to the obvious: The poor worker in Sri Lanka isn't in any elevated social status, the wage he isn't earning as compared to what a unionized worker would get are just bigger earnings for the "company." And other than the stock holders and execs, who else is the company? Coles notes version: Worker abroad-exploited Unionized work-fired So who wins?

outintheyardThreads: 37 Posts: 542 Joined: Jan 7, 08	Mar 11, 09, 15:04 / #
Hello All good people and others. I have been out in the yard laborious catching up so to speak. I have not been working since I lost my employment of 20 years. They just told me to pack up and leave. Quite rude I must say. So I have been off line out of touch and making a go at it with out work. Doing miscelleneous job s for food etc. The enjoyment has been in geeeting to be arround my beautiful place more. Ah, only if i were a bit more wealthy. Savings go fast. Life is so much fun. I have thought of moving to another country. This does not seem to be a very good idea either. I see some new mwembers on here. Welcome. And till we meet again. Good luck to all of you.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Edited by: ShelleyS Mar 11, 09, 16:19 / #
Foreigner4: yeah i see what you wrote but it reads a lot like a more detailed rendition of what i had alluded to. All countries (and by countries, i mean people) lose in the situation you've described. The only winners are the execs. I'll make my addition to the obvious: The poor worker in Sri Lanka isn't in any elevated social status, the wage he isn't earning as compared to what a unionized worker would get are just bigger earnings for the "company." And other than the stock holders and execs, who else is the company? Coles notes version: Worker abroad-exploited Unionized work-fired So who wins? I explained what you asked me to. Regarding your last question, there are no winners: My reasons: The poor worker in Sri Lanka is the way he is because his government doen't give a shite about him, because his government doesn't give a shit about him, it allows him to be taken advantage of, the poor worker doesn't pay tax this in turn doesn't improve his country or the standard of his life. The worker in europe who used to do the job the poor Sri Lankan does has lost his job and his income and therefore unable to spend the money goods he used to buy before, some of the goods he used to buy are produced by this poor Sri Lankan guy. The companies profits fall because their target market no longer has the spending capacity it used to have. In short, in the longer term, there are no real winners. LIke I said it's all about turning a quick buck these days, nothing built to last and no one has a job for life - everyone and everything is disposable. As James Dean said "Live Fast Die Young" outintheyard: Hello All good people and others. I have been out in the yard laborious catching up so to speak. I have not been working since I lost my employment of 20 years. They just told me to pack up and leave. Quite rude I must say. So I have been off line out of touch and making a go at it with out work. Doing miscelleneous job s for food etc. The enjoyment has been in geeeting to be arround my beautiful place more. Ah, only if i were a bit more wealthy. Savings go fast. Life is so much fun. I have thought of moving to another country. This does not seem to be a very good idea either. I see some new mwembers on here. Welcome. And till we meet again. Good luck to all of you. Sorry to hear about your job loss, but glad you are making something positive out of it :0)

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Edited by: ShelleyS Mar 12, 09, 14:45 / #
Foreigner4: I wonder if the margins saved on salary outweigh the margins lost on sales. Doubtful, that's why so many businesses are going to wall, remember they still have to staff the shops in the "West" - just more of a knock affect - if you haven't got the cash, no matter how cheap the item is, you still can't afford to buy it, the staff in the shops lose their jobs too. Rising household costs in the "west" just means less disposable income, couple that with massive job losses, it doesn't take a genius to work out that there aren't too many winners.

HappymealThreads: 14 Posts: 40 Joined: Feb 14, 09	Edited by: Moderator Jun 24, 09, 22:27 / #
...AND Poland – Europe’s Silicon Valley? http://www.polishmarket.com.pl/document/:20321?p=%2FEconomic+Monitor%2 F ‘Investments in the IT sector are among Polish Information and Foreign Investment Agency’s priorities’ Sławomir Majman, PAIiIZ president, said at a conference in Warsaw. ‘PAIiIZ has completed 43 IT projects which created over 20,000 jobs. Poland has a unique chance of attracting new investors. The Agency is working on 11 projects worth approximately EUR 60 million which are expected to offer 7,000 jobs within a year and a half’ he added. Most investments focus on services.