If Poland is attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or not?

Sokrates:

Germany on the other hand might prefer the fighting to be happening in Poland rather then in their own backyard so they might actually send some very substantial help but that also depends on whether Russia breaks their trading ties with Europe or not and what the Russian goals would be.

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Aug 6, 09	Nov 2, 09, 19:05 / #
If Poland will be attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or just look the other way? by finding some excuse and blaming Poland for the aggression. My opinion is Poland will be left alone as no one will help as Russia has nukes and by U.S standards are who has nukes it belongs to untouchable club.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 2, 09, 19:09 / #
Marek11111: If Poland will be attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland No, but we can count on an angry diplomatic note, expressing the discontent of our NATO friends :-) Marek11111: who has nukes it belongs to untouchable club. That's why we should stop moaning and join the club. If Pakistan or Israel can have it, or as a matter of a fact - if France and UK can have it... We should call our first nuclear missile - "Hetman Chodkiewicz" :-)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:09 / #
Marek11111: My opinion is Poland will be left alone as no one will help as Russia has nukes and by U.S standards are who has nukes it belongs to untouchable club. Well, the French and GB has nukes too...not to mention the US. The question would be why should Moscow attack the mightiest military club (with nukes) on this earth. Do you think they are suicidal?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 2, 09, 19:15 / #
Marek11111: If Poland will be attacked by Russia will N.A.T.O help defend Poland or just look the other way? Unlikely, Germany might help Poland since if Russia is attacking Poland that would be an indicator of international order truly collapsing but UK and France wont do much. Germany on the other hand might prefer the fighting to be happening in Poland rather then in their own backyard so they might actually send some very substantial help but that also depends on whether Russia breaks their trading ties with Europe or not and what the Russian goals would be. Bratwurst Boy: Do you think they are suicidal? You need to rephrase this, do you think France and UK would engage in a nukefest over Poland?

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07	Edited by: wildrover Nov 2, 09, 19:15 / #
I doubt very much that Russia will attack any member of nato...but yes , if they do , all nato will respond....thats what nato is all about , an attack on any member state is considered an attack on all member states....I dare say most member states would not want to go to war with Russia over Poland...but they will...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:17 / #
Sokrates: Germany on the other hand might prefer the fighting to be happening in Poland rather then in their own backyard so they might actually send some very substantial help but that also depends on whether Russia breaks their trading ties with Europe or not and what the Russian goals would be. Get real Sokrates! Any future war in Europe will NOT be able to be contained on a special place. We would be all in this together and alone thinking that we will conduct trade whereas enemy troops are parading a few kilometers away is so wrong.... Okay...afterwards Europe might be a radioactive desert but then we will not be alive anymore to suffer through that on the other had.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 2, 09, 19:18 / #
Sokrates: nukefest Given that the above would be in all our backyards. Poland is in NATO so of course NATO would back Poland.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Nov 2, 09, 19:18 / #
wildrover: thats what nato is all about Wrong, originally NATO was about defending the West, Russia was preparing to invade and take over all of Europe and thats what NATO was about, if Russian goals would be transparent enough and included subjugating only Poland then Western help is questionable at best. Now if Russian goals would potentially include going to Berlin then yes whole of Europe would go for it, including a possible nuclear exchange. time means: Poland is in NATO so of course NATO would back Poland. Its not as simple as that, Europe has proven its a b*tch when it comes to particular interests, the agreements of 1939 were much more tangible then those of NATO and the West still failed to help Poland.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:20 / #
Sokrates: Wrong, originally NATO was about defending the West, Russia was preparing to invade and take over all of Europe and thats what NATO was about, if Russian goals would be transparent enough and included subjugating only Poland "...subjugating only Poland" and then what? Another russian empire along the lines of the cold war? Been there done that, no thanks! Face it man! Should Poland be attacked from the East you better be prepared to get supported by all other NATO members, if you want to or not, so! ;)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 2, 09, 19:21 / #
Seriously, lads - we should get real. Remind me - how many years did it take Russia to finally defeat those Chechenyan highlanders (all 17 of them ;))? In case of war, Poland can call up to arms over 3 million reservists, decently equipped, brave man, fighting for their homes. There's no way Russia could defeat that force. We would wipe the floor with them. As for the nuclear threats, well - as I said, looks like it's time to "join the club".

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 2, 09, 19:25 / #
Torq: What should you be afraid of? THAT. IS. NOT. THE. POINT!!!

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09	Nov 2, 09, 19:26 / #
Bratwurst Boy: THAT. IS. NOT. THE. POINT!!! SPELL. IT. OUT. IN. PLAIN. ENGLISH!!!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 2, 09, 19:27 / #
Bratwurst Boy: THAT. IS. NOT. THE. POINT!!! Oh yeah, I forgot - you dream of nuking Liechtenstein, BB ;-)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:27 / #
ShawnH: SPELL. IT. OUT. IN. PLAIN. ENGLISH!!! Idon'tlikeitwhentheotherkidsattheplaygroundhavebiggertoysthanme! So! Torq: Liechtenstein, BB ;-) Hey...they are not in the NATO, aren't they? We can safely attack them, ja? Ja? ;)

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 2, 09, 19:22 / #
Sokrates: wildrover: thats what nato is all about Wildrover is correct "that IS what nato is all about" Where as you are quoting what nato used to be.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:23 / #
Torq: As for the nuclear threats, well - as I said, looks like it's time to "join the club" I can see it before my eyes...All countries around Germany are safely tucked under their nuclear umbrellas but only little, poor Germany is left out shivering alone in the cold world of conventional weapons!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 2, 09, 19:24 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I can see it before my eyes...All countries around Germany are safely tucked under their nuclear umbrellas but only little, poor Germany is left out shivering in the cold! snif Stop crying, man - you are surrounded by allies. What should you be afraid of?

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 2, 09, 19:28 / #
Sokrates: West still failed to help Poland Bollocks, war was declared two days later. Sokrates: Europe has proven its a b*tch Some nato allies do not pull their weight i agree, you only have to look at Afghanistan to see that.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Nov 2, 09, 19:33 / #
Bratwurst Boy: "...subjugating only Poland" and then what? Another russian empire along the lines of the cold war? Been there done that, no thanks! Thats the problem with these threads, its not a dry case of Putin waking up and deciding that Polish people are just damn fugly and have to go, it depends on whether or not Europe see's whats cooking. Historically only Poland was aware of whats Russia about, in 1920 Russians made no secret that they're aiming to take Berlin, Paris, Madrit and London after they take Warsaw and where were the British and French reinforcements? Western Europe has a long and proud tradition of being blind and stupid when it comes to Russia so if the West decided they can ditch Poland without loss of profit they just might. Bratwurst Boy: I can see it before my eyes...All countries around Germany are safely tucked under their nuclear umbrellas but only little, poor Germany is left out shivering in the cold! You've got the most powerfull conventional army in Europe and who's going to nuke you? time means: Wildrover is correct "that IS what nato is all about" Where as you are quoting what nato used to be. Nope sorry, Poland was admitted to NATO mainly with US support as a "F*CK YOU!" towards Russia rather then a strategic element. Torq: In case of war, Poland can call up to arms over 3 million reservists In case of war Poland can arm approximately 230.000 men with a body of 100.000 professional soldiers active or drawn from reserve. time means: Bollocks, war was declared two days later. And the French army advanced a whooping 5 miles before stopping for a year stopped dead by the vicious German trees and roadside fences! No the West did not help Poland and yes the treaties that fortified that help were much more specific then the NATO ones.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Nov 2, 09, 19:33 / #
Sokrates: Europe has proven its a btch when it comes to particular interests, the agreements of 1939 were much more tangible then those of NATO and the West still failed to help Poland. Yawn. Sorry is there some big plan by Russia to invade Poland that we havent heard about? And why all of a sudden are Germany Poland's best friend and England the btch...Answers on a post card please :D

ShawnHThreads: 9 Posts: 3,056 Joined: Jul 2, 09	Edited by: ShawnH Nov 2, 09, 19:34 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Idon'tlikeitwhentheotherkidsattheplaygroundhavebiggertoysthanme! Oknowthatisperfectlyclearandiunderstandcompletely. Itisalongthelinesofwhatiwasthinkinganyway. Sokrates: You've got the most powerfull conventional army in Europe and who's going to nuke you? Interesting twist. If they didn't do something about Poland, would they intervene when Germany is rolled over.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 2, 09, 19:37 / #
ShelleyS: Sorry is there some big plan by Russia to invade Poland that we havent heard about? And why all of a sudden are Germany Poland's best friend and England the b*tch...Answers on a post card please :D Nah we're playing the old Polish game of when the Russians invade, there's going to be discussions like that even when Jesus crushes Russia under his left nut and there's no more Russians.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:38 / #
Sokrates: Western Europe has a long and proud tradition of being blind and stupid when it comes to Russia so if the West decided they can ditch Poland without loss of profit they just might. Well...WWII, EU, end of the Cold war, EU- and NATO enlargement put an end to that thinking and diplomacy. We in the EU and in the european NATO (I'm against non-european adventures ala Iraq and Afghanistan) are already interlocked with each other economically and even militarily in a way that it will be to difficult for any possible enemy to break us up into several countries again. Meaning if one attacks Poland he attacks Germany, he attacks France etc.! And that is just now...but the process of becoming interlocked with each other progresses from year to year! European integration. The same process which makes inter-european wars more and more impossible makes it also impossible for any future would be enemy to take us on alone, cut off from the EU flock...it's all or nobody! This situation is fundamentally different from 1914 or 1939!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Nov 2, 09, 19:41 / #
ShawnH: Interesting twist. If they didn't do something about Poland, would they intervene when Germany is rolled over. Without a moments notice, Germany is crucial to France and UK having their beer in peace, Poland not really. Bratwurst Boy: This situation is fundamentally different from 1914 or 1939! In part yes but now Russia is slowly becoming the devil, we're unable to integrate Russia into anything because for all intents and purposes its a completely different planet and because they're not a part of anything their old schizophrenical idea of besieged fortress Russia is getting bigger. ShelleyS: And why all of a sudden are Germany Poland's best friend and England the b*tch...Answers on a post card please :D Its all business Shelly, Germany is directly threatened by being next in line while UK is separated from the entire mess by France, the ocean and a sense of humor.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 2, 09, 19:43 / #
ShelleyS: And why all of a sudden are Germany Poland's best friend and England the btch...Answers on a post card please :D Should the Russians really becoming suicidal over night then WE, the Germans, are Polands neighbours and GB is still an island far away...;) Sokrates: In part yes but now Russia is slowly becoming the devil I just won't believe that! (But I will observe)*

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 2, 09, 19:46 / #
I wouldn't be so sure. Politics is all about game playing and harsh rhetoric. Look at the Cold War, there was never any real intention of using nukes. They decided that they'd be each other's enemy as they needed one. Reagan and Gorbachev, for example, had a dialogue and I wouldn't really class them as true enemies. Call it extended role play if you like.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 2, 09, 19:47 / #
Sokrates: the ocean and a sense of humor. That's a channel and humour :-)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 2, 09, 19:51 / #
Sokrates: In case of war Poland can arm approximately 230.000 men with a body of 100.000 professional soldiers active or drawn from reserve. Where did you get that info, Sokrates? Poland has approximately 3 million trained reservists and enough weapons to arm them in case of war (I wasn't talking about the main army only but also about the territorial defence, reserve units etc.) 100 thousand is the current size of Polish army (during peace).

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Nov 2, 09, 19:51 / #
Torq: looks like it's time to "join the club No argument here, I second that notion, as for counting on help from NATO or US is like relying on special education student tutoring you in physics. Bratwurst Boy: Face it man! Should Poland be attacked from the East you better be prepared to get supported by all other NATO members More like 1939 only in reverse, Germany once again taking the initiative on their own (or would it?) 17 days later shaking hands with Russians at Vistula River happy there’s no more of those pesky Poles to deal with and finally build the pipeline, business as usual. NATO and EU officials would still be congratulating themselves on how good of the deal they made with Russia giving them Poland getting nothing back in return with exception of some empty promise and US taking all the credit for the negotiation and bragging how they managed to stop further Russian expansion. Prediction worthy of Nostradamus. Bratwurst Boy: Meaning if one attacks Poland he attacks Germany, he attacks France etc.! Been there in 39, history likes to repeat itself. Bratwurst Boy: This situation is fundamentally different from 1914 or 1939 How exactly is that?, explain please.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 2, 09, 19:53 / #
Won't that number have declined, Torq? It has been a full year now since the abolition of conscription and many people will have gone on to do other things. I am maybe naive here but it's a logical assumption.