Why do Poland block the European Constitution?

Quoting: Jola

Silly questions:Kaczynski: "If poland would not have been through the years 39-45, poland would have a population of 66 Millions".
Poland had been occuped of strange powers several times in the history. Last the bra-
ve polish people had closed the statecapitalism and get the sacred freedom. Iwonder
why Kaczynski and the establisment in the cities dont see the danger of EUs centra-
lisation in Bruxelles... All initatives, laws an regulations are in the favour of EUs istitu-
tions. Some day will the poles be a little state who are incoporated in a system who
has lot of analogies to the big centralism of the Soviet Union. Than you can saied as
Biilinski. Finis Polonie... wake up and dont sell the soul of Poland to EU!
Leif Stani Leszczynski, Denmark

BrontoBob	Jun 20, 07, 01:03 / #
Greetings, i must admit i had slight concerns about the anti-polish press from several european media in the last few days. I'm not willed to join the chorus of 'blame it on the polish twins', but i must mention, i do not understand them really. Why do they try to block the practial, first minimal solution for a european constituion? Okay, its not the top-best solution for eternity ;), but after decades of hard politcial and social development in the 'old' EU-members, suddenly poland politicians came along and think they're more equal than the rest... and becomes as 'eu-newbie' a menace to filigree 'eu-family'. Let's be honest, to get the same amount of voices than several countrys with more people living in is not really fair...if we want to build europe together, we should find a basic-democratic key, according to the given statistical facts. Thats EU-tradition, and the key how it was build since the middle of the last century. The simple german man - as i am - becomes afraid, that our neighbour is living in the past. My generation is NOT responsible for the horror in past, but over here nearly everbody thinks, polish polticians are going fishing in 'Anti-Nazi' Pool... ... and i want to believe that the polish people even dream of united, free an democratic Europe which is strong enough to resist global players like the u.s. or china in. For sure is only one thing: on its own every european Nation will be nothing in the future. A ball to play with for the big ones... To describe the opinon overhere in one sentence: Poland took every offered advantage, but it's not willed to give anything. So, let me repeat, i've concerns about the opion overhere, but on the other hand i'm even afraid that poland politicans are not really serving the interests of their people... Finally, the reason for my posting was: What do normal polish people think? (No Media brainwash, just people like you and me - thanks to the internet;) friendly regards from germany Brontobob

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 20, 07, 01:06 / #
That's because of the voting system.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 20, 07, 01:10 / #
Quoting: BrontoBob What do normal polish people think? I support the twins.

horunPolandThreads: - Posts: 127 Joined: Apr 4, 07	Edited by: horunPoland Jun 20, 07, 03:20 / #
in that case I strongly support twins. and constitution of europe good joke one history (best joke i've ever heard) one nation (who are you?? europinian hehe), one politic line (yes of course and who talked at our back with russians about pipline with oil and gas, who was agains christians simbolic in preambula of constitution, what europ done to solve problem with polish meat ??). we had 50 years of Moskwa protectorat and thanks for next 100 year of Brussel protectorat. Federation of country OK. one constitution --never

zion	Edited by: zion Jun 20, 07, 04:15 / #
by the way Poland will give up under the pression from germany and other EU countries ! becouse there are EU members and there are EU members if you know what I mean !

daffyThreads: 40 Posts: 2,119 Joined: Feb 5, 07	Jun 20, 07, 04:25 / #
no eu member can pressure another. look at the nice treaty, and the constitution. individual countries have been able to successfully veto drafts they were not happy with they will work on the constitution untill all members are satisfied with it

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jun 20, 07, 08:36 / #
Poland is an "Infant Terrible" of European policy but in same time it is a very useful unit.. because of giddiness, poland ruins all unions in which it has membership. So it was with Council for Mutual Economic Assistance, and so it is with EU. ;-)))

scotjockThreads: 4 Posts: 81 Joined: Jan 12, 07	Jun 20, 07, 09:34 / #
I see no reason to have a European Constitution. Member States have already given more than enough decision making areas to Brussels, too much in fact. Some areas remain sacrosant such as defence, taxes, education and so on. As for Polands stance, well done to them, they will lose considerable voting power if the proposed constitution is agreed. However, Germany will not, and it is they who are attempting to revive the constitution when other countries have already voted against it.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 20, 07, 09:51 / #
Quoting: daffy they will work on the constitution untill all members are satisfied with it No daffy! Regardless how this butting of heads will end the EU reached a turning point forever. The EU will change...it can't go on like this or the EU will fail and will be destroyed...she became to big to quick with to many members in to many different stages of social and economic development...to many different voices! The EU will part..."two velocities"...you can read about this idea more and more in german papers. The more developed countries which agree on common grounds will build a kind of new EU, whereas countries who need more time don't have to agree with anything and not all will have to be of the same opinion! Economical ties will stay of course.... That's the only way the EU will survive....

BrontoBob	Jun 21, 07, 14:11 / #
Greetings, Source: Finiancial Times/Polish Radio Kaczynski: "If poland would not have been through the years 39-45, poland would have a population of 66 Millions". So, can anybody still deny, what kind of 'anti-german' thougts are leading this men? If Germany would not have been slapped with "the insane swine" 39-45...but what kind of arguments are that ?? They DISQUALIFY theirself ... just my 2 cents. @ Gregorz: I informed myself about the polish voting system, now i understand;) @ Horun: That kind of zyncial answer proves the missing democratic decades in poland and your heart full of fear, sry. @ zion: Agreed. That's a point that we, the people, must try to change! @ daffy: well, if i had a wish, your idea will come true. But in fact Bratwurst Boy will be right, and for example poland will pay it's politics with beeing left besides. @ ConstantineK: ohoh.... i hope your're wrong, europe would miss poland. @ scotjock: In fact 20 of 27 countrys want the constitution, not only germany. @ BratwurstBoy: Seems you're even a european unfortunately born in germany.. ;) friendly regards BrontoBob

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Edited by: Grzegorz_ Jun 22, 07, 05:12 / #
Quoting: Wroclaw And this is Poland at its best. Living in the past. So Germans may screem about "explusions", bombing of Dresden was a war crime (or "bombing holocaust"), Russians were raping German women etc. but when real victims of WW2 say about obvious facts then that's "living in the past" ?

PeterCptThreads: 2 Posts: 51 Joined: Jun 23, 07	Edited by: PeterCpt Jun 23, 07, 09:03 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ So Germans may screem about "explusions", bombing of Dresden was a war crime (or "bombing holocaust"), Russians were raping German women etc. but when real victims of WW2 say about obvious facts then that's "living in the past" ? Obviously everyone suffered in WW2. However while Germany was rebuilt by the United States, the way Japan was, Poland was under Joe Stalin's influence which lead to further destruction of our already German devastated society. :) Had WW2 not occured Poland would have been much stronger and larger it is now. The private companies which developed in Poland in the 19th and early 20th centuries would be in the league of the Daimmler Benz, Volkswagens and Siemens' of this world. Heck our movie industry may possibly have been where Hollywood is now, with the MGM's and Warner Bros of this world possibly founded in Poland instead. :) So I don't think Poland is living in the past the way the Jewish people are not living in the past when they bring up the Holocaust. It is not even an entirely anti-German feeling but more of a pragmatic one. Germany did elect Hitler democratically, they did invade Poland voluntarily and they did occupy Poland and managed it in a most brutal way, wiping out the elite and designating most Poles for extermination. So that's a fact. We don't blame the current generation of Germans for this but we do find it hurtful when they brush off these issues and want to now dominate us. After all no matter how benign Germany may appear to be, the role of their government is to look after German interests first (this goes for any government obviously) and with the ability to dominate who says they won't. Heck look at the UN, the developing nations all want permanent seats on the Security Council too. They also believe they are being dominated. People like the Kaczynski's who bring up WW2 are NOT living in the past. WW2 and its consequences are the direct causes of a poor, less developed Poland. It's utterly disgusting for anyone who hasn't suffered to the degree we did in WW2 to minimise the consequences and the impact of the war on Eastern Europe (the other Eastern European nations suffered as much as we did). Heck in Asia the Koreans and Chinese constantly bring up the issues of Imperial Japanese occupation and comfort women etc during WW2. I must also say that the EU constitution was rejected in France and the Netherlands in the referanda held there. This new treaty is some sort of a cop out, a cop out with which the UK isn't entirely happy with either.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Edited by: Grzegorz_ Jun 23, 07, 13:40 / #
Quoting: Bratwurst Boy The rebuilding did the Germans all by themselves Crap. Without Yanks you would eat grass. Quoting: Bratwurst Boy WHERE IS THE ECONOMIC MIRACLE FOR POLAND??? Well, I would say that 7.5% GDP growth is not bad... And the money from EU you are talking about we haven't got yet, we will get that until 2014.

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07	Jun 23, 07, 13:43 / #
Give the twins a chance...they've only been in office since what? October? They're just getting settled....there hasn't been enough time yet to discern the effects.

ola123	Jun 21, 07, 14:19 / #
Quoting: BrontoBob Kaczynski: "If poland would not have been through the years 39-45, poland would have a population of 66 Millions". So, can anybody still deny, what kind of 'anti-german' thougts are leading this men? So in order not to be anti-German we should pretednt that there was not the war at all? Kaczynski is quite right and our bad economy is very stricted to 39-45 and 45-90. I dont know why is it so bad to talk about thruth? I have nothing againt noone btw

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 21, 07, 14:33 / #
On the BBC News today an interviewee said "It's payback" And this is Poland at its best. Living in the past. How can you move forward when all that is on your mind is the past.

BrontoBob	Jun 21, 07, 15:11 / #
Greetings, @ola123: Ofcourse not !! There was a horrible war, and over 140 millions lost their lives!! But to use this argument in this argue, that's -for me- quite embarrasing... @Wroclaw: I must admit, that's the german media opinion. But i can't believe, that we, the people of europe, let us dictate from the media what we should think... friendly regards BrontoBob

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 21, 07, 16:27 / #
Quoting: ola123 So in order not to be anti-German we should pretednt that there was not the war at all? Kaczynski is quite right and our bad economy is very stricted to 39-45 and 45-90. I dont know why is it so bad to talk about thruth? I have nothing againt noone btw Just a question: Remember the lectures about the Thirty years war? France, England, Sweden, Scotland (and some others) devastated Germany in this war. Germany lost one third of her population....imagine every third dead...the country destroyed. Do you think we should do the math and calculate how much people we would be today and how much votes we could demand? Or what about the Napoleonic wars? Some millions of dead Germans too... Hmmm...might be an idea....let's think about that... PS: I just read in another german board where someone already did the math: Therefore Germany would have now 300 Mill citizens and would be 4 times as big as the current Germany! Now what would that mean for our votes? :)

horunPolandThreads: - Posts: 127 Joined: Apr 4, 07	Edited by: horunPoland Jun 22, 07, 03:57 / #
if think that is stipid to talk about how would it be. All european nations had many wars Napoleon wars, 100 years war, 30 tears war, religius war, warsa gainst turky, spanish war with maurs... in 17th century Poland had 6 wars 2 against Turky 2 against Sweden and Ukrainian uprising and war with russia so can you imagine how many people died?? thats why USA is so strong they had only one big war at their teritiry against Mexico at the biggining of their country than nort-south war and nothing..... european land in all in blood and i think that is too many difference between many country to have constitution especialy for Poland because w are in UE 3 YEARS only and we have bad memmories from years 45-90 thats why i think that for know confederation of country is enough and I love Poland not Europe........

JolaThreads: 9 Posts: 130 Joined: Nov 11, 06	Jun 22, 07, 04:35 / #
Silly questions:Kaczynski: "If poland would not have been through the years 39-45, poland would have a population of 66 Millions". Poland had been occuped of strange powers several times in the history. Last the bra- ve polish people had closed the statecapitalism and get the sacred freedom. Iwonder why Kaczynski and the establisment in the cities dont see the danger of EUs centra- lisation in Bruxelles... All initatives, laws an regulations are in the favour of EUs istitu- tions. Some day will the poles be a little state who are incoporated in a system who has lot of analogies to the big centralism of the Soviet Union. Than you can saied as Biilinski. Finis Polonie... wake up and dont sell the soul of Poland to EU! Leif Stani Leszczynski, Denmark

horunPolandThreads: - Posts: 127 Joined: Apr 4, 07	Jun 22, 07, 04:55 / #
Quoting: Jola Silly questions:Kaczynski: "If poland would not have been through the years 39-45, poland would have a population of 66 Millions". Poland had been occuped of strange powers several times in the history. Last the bra- ve polish people had closed the statecapitalism and get the sacred freedom. Iwonder why Kaczynski and the establisment in the cities dont see the danger of EUs centra- lisation in Bruxelles... All initatives, laws an regulations are in the favour of EUs istitu- tions. Some day will the poles be a little state who are incoporated in a system who has lot of analogies to the big centralism of the Soviet Union. Than you can saied as Biilinski. Finis Polonie... wake up and dont sell the soul of Poland to EU! Leif Stani Leszczynski, Denmark Totaly agree with you. Regards

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 23, 07, 09:22 / #
True.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Edited by: joepilsudski Jun 23, 07, 09:23 / #
I would suggest reading this article to get insight into who runs the EU, and what their attitudes are: americanfreepress.net/html/bilderberg_2007.html Poland & all European countries should be very sceptical when dealing with this crowd...the EU is already a useless/bloated bureaucracy, and if you do some research on parts of the EU constitution, who will find it to be the antithesis of what we think of as 'democracy'.

away guyThreads: 12 Posts: 392 Joined: Mar 16, 07	Jun 23, 07, 09:24 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ I support the twins. me too !!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 23, 07, 13:23 / #
Quoting: PeterCpt However while Germany was rebuilt by the United States, Crap! The rebuilding did the Germans all by themselves with much less monetary help as for example Great Britain or France got. Oh and right now Poland got already more help from the EU (think Germany) than Germany ever got from the US. WHERE IS THE ECONOMIC MIRACLE FOR POLAND??? Wait...for rebuilding you need actually people doing all the hard work at home not them wandering off to other countries... Quoting: PeterCpt We don't blame the current generation of Germans for this but we do find it hurtful when they brush off these issues and want to now dominate us. You are right of course the EU is a means for Germany to clear up our european backyard and make sure the continent is ready to buy our goods...for that we need Europe stable and attractive (only confident people living in stable environments with money in their pockets will want to buy many products....german products) So it's a win for all! If your precious independence is more important to you than the real facts as in Germany the top dog / Poland not top dog...than you better accept the consequences and go out. But when you instead prefer to get pumped full with money and support from the EU (Germany) then shut the fck up and go with the flow...you can't have it both ways...not as long you don't give as much as Germany does and becomes a top dog like she is. And I don't see that coming so soon.... So...please....stop the whining! You think Germany is bullying right now? That she opresses and dominates you right now? You have no idea.....*

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 23, 07, 13:45 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ Crap. Without Yanks you would eat grass. Sorry...it wasn't only the Yanks occupying Germany....there were the French, the Brits and also the Russians. And in ALL zones people soon stopped eating grass but rebuild their country out of rubble and even the GDR with the Russians stealing everything what wasn't nailed down the land became one of the best in the whole eastern Block! Quoting: Grzegorz_ Well, I would say that 7.5% GDP growth is not bad... And the money from EU you are talking about we haven't got yet, we will get that until 2014. Oh there IS an economic miracle? But why are your young people leaving? Why all this talk about feeling dominated and slighted by the Germans? Should I repeat it again? Lot's of the money which is helping Poland is coming from GERMANY!!!! What a way do oppress and dominate the Poles, isn't it....

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 23, 07, 13:49 / #
Quoting: Bratwurst Boy Lot's of the money which is helping Poland is coming from GERMANY!!!! At least once you are useful for something... Quoting: Bratwurst Boy But why are your young people leaving? Many of yours are also leaving to Austria or Swiss and If let's say in 50's you could move without problems to America like Poles now may to W.Europe then half of your people would have left.

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07	Jun 23, 07, 13:51 / #
Is so nice of Germany to share. Is the German money going anywhere else in the EU, or only Poland? Just curious :) (I am imagining a money-pipleine winding its way over hill and dale, through the meadows of summer flowers....)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 23, 07, 13:52 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ At least once you are useful for something... My pleasure...but would you then please tune down all this crying about the oh so poor, horrible mistreated (by the Germans), tortured (by the Germans), abused (by the Germans), oppressed (by the Germans) and dominated (by the Germans too) Poles talk? Thank you! It get's ridiculous....

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 23, 07, 13:53 / #
Quoting: Bratwurst Boy but would you then please tune down all this crying about the oh so poor, horrible mistreated (by the Germans), tortured (by the Germans), abused (by the Germans), oppressed (by the Germans) and dominated (by the Germans too) talk? Give more cash, so we will see...