Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?

TheOther:

Steveramsfan:
Who divided Poland up for 200 years?
Who gives a f*ck? You could as well ask who took the land of the Teutonic Order centuries before that. Doesn't make much sense either. There were always imperialistic countries which expanded on the expense of their neighbors. What happened to Poland (the partitions) is nothing out of the ordinary.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Nov 29, 09, 19:12 / #
TheOther: Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Having this chapter of history covered in debth in the documentation centre might not be in the interest of the Polish government, I would assume. This is is not correct interpretation of motives of Polish politicians. They talk about Steinbach (who was proved to be a liar by the way) only during election campaigns to attract more voters. Why do you think that politicians should dig in history? Lets leave interpretation of historic events to historians.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Edited by: Steveramsfan Nov 29, 09, 20:29 / #
Bratwurst Boy: No, I'm not repeating all these discussions for you and with you....use the search function of the forum and that should give you an idea or two Copernicus is German. Haha I read all your Bollxxxs about him being prussian. Remind me when Prussians became German? They were from the Baltic states before the Teutonic nights went into prussia, at the invitation of a Polish King. Teutonic nights invited into Polish territory. Bratwurst Boy: I'm also not interested to start everytime from scratch the moment another history newbie decides to put in his two cents....as the history of the Germans in what is what now Poland goes back many centuries and didn't start with any invasions. The Germans did not settle in the main part of where Poland is today, they were scared off by the Turkic nomads. The Western Slaves settled and there were no ethnic Germans in the main Polish lands until the Teutonic nights went rouge and overstepped their invitation. That sounds like an invasion to me. reading your threads I learnt you don't have a clue about German history. I see that Poland is still Ignored by Germany, I think it counts to people from the UK.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 29, 09, 20:34 / #
Oh.my.god! So much crap in one post! Do you have any brain at all???

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Edited by: Steveramsfan Nov 29, 09, 20:36 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oh.my.god! So much crap in one post! Do you have any brain at all??? Haha Herr 1 sided wakes up. Im not going to write a 10000 word essay to explain Central European history to you. Advice, Read non German history books

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 29, 09, 20:37 / #
Steveramsfan: I think it counts to people from the UK. Oh and that one is still a running joke in Europe! Who could forget the broken promises in '39 or in 45! ROFL

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 20:38 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oh and that one is still a running joke in Europe! Who could forget the broken promises in '39 or in 45! ROFL Not broken promises, again, read your history books with your eyes open.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 20:40 / #
Steveramsfan: Not broken promises, again, read your history books with your eyes open. ...we have long threads about that topic here to. You know Steve...studying the threads here on PF would open your eyes about some truths, misconceptions and facts. Would you do all of us the favour and read them first? I personally couldn't care less how the Brits behaved towards their polish allies - but many Poles do, even today! "Perfidious albion" anybody?

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 20:53 / #
Bratwurst Boy: You know Steve...studying the threads here on PF would open your eyes about some truths, misconceptions and facts. Would you do all of us the favour and read them first? You don't get truths on a forum. Part time historians, haha, I will stick to real history books and libraries. You stay with the internet and peoples hobbies. Winston Churchill tried to get Poland exactly the same borders as they had at the start of the war but Britain only had a bit part at the end of the war. In 1945 Britain could do nothing. The 2 superpowers started in 1945 at the Yalta Conference, Britain has been a lapdog since 1941. WW2 ruined us.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 29, 09, 22:53 / #
pawian: Nobody serious in Poland denies the fact that German civilians suffered a tragic fate. Which doesn't include Polish politicians, it seems. And I would love to see a poll carried out amongst the Polish population to check the above. pawian: that most of ethnic cleansing was done by German Nazi administration when it gave orders to German civilians to leave their houses before the Red Army`s invasion? I guess that's more of a half truth. The Nazi Gauleitungen almost always held back information about the nearing frontlines and the advance of enemy forces. And even if the local population was aware of it they were ordered by the Gauleitung to stay and fight (usually old men and juveniles). When permission was finally given to evacuate, it was usually too late and the Red Army simply overran everything - including the refugee treks. Steveramsfan: Who divided Poland up for 200 years? Who gives a f*ck? You could as well ask who took the land of the Teutonic Order centuries before that. Doesn't make much sense either. There were always imperialistic countries which expanded on the expense of their neighbors. What happened to Poland (the partitions) is nothing out of the ordinary.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 23:13 / #
TheOther: Steveramsfan: Who divided Poland up for 200 years? Who gives a f*ck? You could as well ask who took the land of the Teutonic Order centuries before that. Doesn't make much sense either. There were always imperialistic countries which expanded on the expense of their neighbors. What happened to Poland (the partitions) is nothing out of the ordinary. You took that completely out of context, it was in reply to someone else's post. He said most of Poland is historically German. I was showing historically the Germanic people have constantly invaded Poland.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 30, 09, 00:11 / #
TheOther: I've still got a valid point, don't I? ;) Its a valid point yes. It was just the location that they settled. England was lucky it was on an Island and thus was not successfully invaded since 1066. Blinkered views of a persons own countries history just winds me up. Before anyone comments, I am not blinkered with English history. For example, I can see why the Catholics in Northern Ireland fought British rule. I don't agree with their methods but I see what England did wrong. Read around a subject, not just 1 book or 1 internet article.

daga85Threads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Nov 30, 09	Nov 30, 09, 16:25 / #
of course it does...if it does not it would not be there. in these days we can clearly see collapse of western countries....Poland is the only European country which has not been touched by recession. Economy is doing so well....im proud of my beautiful Poland!

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,521 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Nov 30, 09, 17:59 / #
Poland counts in a big way: It is the bridge between Russia and the East and Western Europe...What Poland lacks is a vision, and leadership...She is not alone in this...It is easier to have someone else make decisions.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 30, 09, 18:05 / #
joepilsudski: It is the bridge between Russia and the East and Western Europe Under different circumstances Poland could have been the bridge, but that spot has long been occupied by (West) Germany. Economically, Poland is not strong enough to fill that position and she will probably never be. Being the cultural bridge between the east and west is a whole different story, of course. Torq: Our government will issue an official apology Why? Because you European pussies cannot play football/ rugby like real men? ;)

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Nov 29, 09, 23:39 / #
Steveramsfan: You took that completely out of context Even if ... I've still got a valid point, don't I? ;)

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,190 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Nov 30, 09, 14:00 / #
Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored? What you want me to say and, i would say

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Nov 30, 09, 17:22 / #
Steveramsfan: Blinkered views of a persons own countries history just winds me up. I guess the blinkered view depends on which side of the border you're standing. In the case of Poland and Germany: mix both their versions of history and you will get the correct one.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 30, 09, 17:24 / #
TheOther: In the case of Poland and Germany: mix both their versions of history and you will get the correct one. Only if you add 90% of the Polish version and 10% of the German one to the mixture ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 30, 09, 17:26 / #
Torq: Only if you add 90% of the Polish version and 10% of the German one to the mixture ;) I've heard that!

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 30, 09, 17:29 / #
Torq: Only if you add 90% of the Polish version and 10% of the German one to the mixture Okay, but the German 10% will be about the partitions, WW1 and WW2 ... ;)

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Nov 30, 09, 17:46 / #
Steveramsfan: Ok, the Rugby Football field Aussie Rules!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 30, 09, 21:03 / #
TheOther: Poland is not strong enough to fill that position and she will probably never be. Thats where we have to wait and see, weakening Germany will create a power vacumm just like weakening Poland did in the 17th century but in all other aspects i agree.

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 30, 09, 21:29 / #
Sokrates: weakening Germany will create a power vacumm The problem is that with Germany going down the rest of Europe including Poland would also be severely weakened economically. Whether Poland would be able to take advantage of such a situation, that I doubt at the moment. Not to mention that without Germany (paying) there would be no EU.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 30, 09, 21:36 / #
TheOther: The problem is that with Germany going down the rest of Europe including Poland would also be severely weakened. Why? Poland is going to have markets of Ukraine and Belarus who by the time are bound to be at a period Poland is now, investment opportunities waiting to happen. Also its not like Germany is just going to fall on its face overnight, the population decrease and the weight of social support takes time, we're talking 50s of the XXI century here. TheOther: Whether Poland would be able to take advantage of this situation Poland does not really have to actively take advantage for at least two decades, just keep growing economically, aquiring a stable and competent elite and investing in its relations with Belarus and Ukraine. Germany has entered a downward spiral thats absolutely dramatic and long term, even German specialists are divided as to results varying between very bad and catastrophic, Germany is poised to lose a power status for at least a century, possibly permanently. TheOther: that I doubt at the moment. At the moment Poland wouldnt be able to take advantage of an unconscious Jessica Alba in the woods, even doped up on viagra, luckily we have lots and lots of time to sort ourselves out. TheOther: Not to mention that without Germany (paying) there would be no EU. There's a lot of economic and demographical changes that ensure EU is going to fall apart anyway but then again not neccesarily, it might happen that Poland and France take over the financial weight overtime.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 30, 09, 21:37 / #
Steveramsfan: England was lucky it was on an Island and thus was not successfully invaded since 1066. Probably more to do with the Royal navy than luck. If the channel kept people out then surely it should have kept the Brits in. Ever heard of the British empire.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 30, 09, 21:41 / #
time means: Probably more to do with the Royal navy than luck. "Lucky England is on an Island" not "lucky we were not successfully invaded" :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 30, 09, 21:54 / #
Sokrates: Germany has entered a downward spiral thats absolutely dramatic and long term, even German specialists are divided as to results varying between very bad and catastrophic, Germany is poised to lose a power status for at least a century, possibly permanently. We have survived worse! And don't think Poland is on an island....what will befell Germany you will catch too. Frankly I don't get your thinking at all...are you seriously waiting that your neighbour get's the woes and that you can profit from it??? During the next 50 years we will become so entangled and mixed we will be practically merged in the EU, alone that will keep such a demographic study a bit pointless. People (especially the young) can wander, study, work and settle where they want.... Not to mention that Europe surely won't profit from it's motor being stuttering! Another point is that you like to forget is that we live in a time where lone superpowers cease to exist, lose their importance...it is about the building of power blocs, the asian one, the european one, the american one (no longer the US alone). The EU is the logical future power bloc for Europe...and Germany gave up alot of power and independence already to help build it, voluntarily. Sokrates, you repeat the same error in all your analyses...you keep guessing the future with the eyes of the last century!

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,439 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 30, 09, 21:57 / #
Sokrates: Poland is going to have markets of Ukraine and Belarus But to take advantage of those markets and to be competitive Poland would to have to have her own high quality products that are in demand. With your current production base you don't stand a chance. ...just keep growing economically I know that you are quite optimistic when it comes to the economic growth in Poland; we talked about that before. I on the other hand believe that Poland cannot sustain these growth rates when the country has no own competitive and sought after products and is dependent on investments from foreign corporations. Remember Ireland - I can only repeat myself. At the moment Poland wouldnt be able to take advantage of an unconscious Jessica Alba in the woods LOL Sokrates: ...and demographical changes The Polish population is shrinking, too. Let the local economy go down the drain and you will see even more population decrease. Same would be true by the way, if Poland would do very well economically. Just look west and see what happens in Germany, France and all the other countries. People are too selfish nowadays to raise kids. Bratwurst Boy: People (especially the young) can wander, study, work and settle where they want.... Very good point! Maybe we will see a competition for Europe's young people in the future.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 30, 09, 22:02 / #
TheOther: Very good point! Maybe we will see a competition for Europe's young people in the future. Exactly!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 30, 09, 22:07 / #
Bratwurst Boy: We have survived worse! No you did not, you've fought wars where an enemy wanted to occupy you or convert you, and even when you were depopulated like in the 30 years war you still had the wealth and peace to repopulate the country. Today your population is tied directly to your wealth and you've got generations raised in a way that discourages having a family, so guess how will they raise their kids. Worst of all the threat is not immidiately visible to a common German citizen since the situation evolves slowly so there's no social pressure to change it so no changes are being made. Bratwurst Boy: And don't think Poland is on an island....what will befell Germany you will catch too. Yes sir in fact we will lose between 4 and 5 milion people ourselves, but our economy is not so heavily based on social support, our society does not expect so much money from the state and most importantly our population issues are resolving already so we're going to have a 34-5 milion people by 2040s-50s and begin to increase again while you will still be struggling to even begin adressing the issue and you will have a lot less money to throw at it by the time too. Bratwurst Boy: are you seriously waiting that your neighbour get's the woes and that you can profit from it??? Not really no, i would if it was just the issue of Poland supplanting Germany but tied to it are other issues such as Poland having a future confrontation with Russia, added responsibility and the Islamisation of Europe, personally i'd prefer Germany where and how it is provided they give Poland room to breathe but regardless of preferences Germany is not going to stay where and how it is, its going to fall on its face and get up after generations or never again and no i'm not waiting for it or particulary happy about it since its going to bring some very serious challenges to Poland, the 1920 kind and i prefer a predictable and safe life, even if it means Germany is the strongest country in Europe.