Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?

TheOther:

Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Having this chapter of history covered in debth in the documentation centre might not be in the interest of the Polish government, I would assume.

TheOther:

suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Jul 14, 09, 23:50 / #
First, Jerzy Buzek was elected European Parliament president and now... http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/2008736,12,item.html ...Michał Kamiński was elected to be the chief of European Conservatives and Reformists (ECR).

chinczykThreads: - Posts: 41 Joined: Oct 23, 08	Jul 18, 09, 07:24 / #
Eurola: Is there still such thing? East Europe? I think this is more a geographic concept than a political one...

adrian11224Threads: 9 Posts: 52 Joined: Nov 14, 08	Jul 23, 09, 07:53 / #
pawian: :):):) why don't Poles just start having kids like ignorant blacks and hispanics and see what happens in Europe just like it is in America?

anton888Threads: 1 Posts: 103 Joined: Jun 5, 09	Jul 23, 09, 10:02 / #
Eurola: Is there still such thing? East Europe? Yes, of course. Only eastern european think different...they prefer to call it central europe.

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Jul 23, 09, 10:11 / #
anton888: Only eastern european think different...they prefer to call it central europe. which is geographically correct..:)

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Aug 23, 09, 22:53 / #
thenews.pl 04.08.2009 Former Polish Foreign Minister Adam Rotfeld is a member of NATO's `Wise Men' group which is to outline a blueprint of the alliance's strategic reform. The group is chaired by former US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright and includes representatives of Germany, Britain, France, Italy, Spain, Canada, Greece, Turkey and Latvia. Poland's permanent representative to NATO in Brussels, Boguslaw Winid told the Polish Press Agency: "We are delighted that, thanks to our efforts and primarily the high recognition of Mr Rotfeld, the new Secretary General appointed him to this group." A communique from the Polish Foreign Ministry says that the participation of Poland and Latvia in the `Wise Men' group gives the countries of Central and Eastern Europe a strong voice in the process of mapping out new directions of NATO's development and reform. `Poland,' the communique adds, `has concrete postulates aimed at making the alliance ready to respond to the challenges and threats of the 21st century.` Adam Rotfelt is seventy-one- years-old. A prominent expert in international relations, Rotfeld served as Foreign Minister in 2005 and previously as undersecretary of state in the Foreign Ministry.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Aug 24, 09, 10:31 / #
Seanus: Give me an EU privelege that Germany has that Poland doesn't and then you will see. Would higher farm subsidies count?

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Nov 11, 09, 20:31 / #
Germans appreciated Polish contribution in the fall of their Wall in 1989. Thank you, German brothers. Walesa starts the Berlin dominoes falling 09.11.2009 20:42 Former Solidarity leader Lech Walesa tipped the first large foam block in Berlin, Monday evening, unleashing a cascade of giant dominoes to symbolise the fall of the wall, twenty years ago. The tumbling of thousands of foam slabs - stretching over a kilometre and a half of the old route of the wall, and decorated by German school children, artists and freedom rights activists - was part of the climax of events marking the ending of the separation of east and west Berlin and the fall of communism in central and eastern Europe. Before, speeches had been given under the Brandenburg Gate by world leaders, including a video address by President Barack Obama. Secretary of State Hilary Clinton told the crowd, who had gathered in the rain: “We remember the Poles, who led the struggle for freedom that started in the Gdansk shipyards. Remember about Pope John II, who was an inspiration. Remember the people of the Baltic states. Remember the students of the Czech Republic. Remember the Germans who demolished the wall.” Earlier, Lech Walesa, Chancellor Angela Merkel and former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev ceremoniously crossed an old border in Berlin separating east and west. Lech Walesa told the TVN 24 news station that responsibility for the fall of the wall, reunification of German and end of communism was, “50 percent John Paul II‘s, 30 percent Solidarity and 20 percent the rest of the world. That‘s the truth about those days,” he said. The first blcok was paintd by German and Polish children to symbolise Poland`s role in toppling communism and the Wall. PS. Funny that at the same time Walęsa knocked over not only a domino block but also a cameraman who was standing behind. The broadcasting for German TV was broken. :):):):):):):):):) Germans, I am so sorry, forgive us and Wałęsa. He is Great Destructor, he abolished communism in Poland, because it is such a type of man, he just abolishes everything. See the film: http://www.wiadomosci24.pl/artykul/padaly_wielkie_slowa_padal_mur_padl _i_kamerzysta_115403--1.html PS2. Russian politicians are furious that Walęsa got 5 minutes for his speech while the others only 2 minutes. "It seemed that the Soviet Union had had no contribution to the fall. " a Russian politician said. http://wiadomosci.onet.pl/2076295,12,rosjanie_protestuja_piec_minut_dl a_polaka_w_berlinie_to_za_duzo,item.html

GaaThreads: 2 Posts: 179 Joined: Oct 26, 09	Nov 11, 09, 20:39 / #
pawian: Russian politicians are furious that Walęsa got 5 minutes for his speech while the others only 2 minutes. "It seemed that the Soviet Union had had no contribution to the fall. " a Russian politician said. they are so right. how can you tell 50 years of history in 2 minutes only?!

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Nov 11, 09, 21:11 / #
Gaa: they are so right. how can you tell 50 years of history in 2 minutes only?! The problem is that modern Russians who accept the heritage of the Soviet Union don`t need to talk longer than 2 minutes about the Wall. After all , it was their Soviet predecessors who created the totalitarian communist system which spread all over Eastern and Central Europe and who supported the Wall for 35 years.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09	Edited by: Juche Nov 19, 09, 09:25 / #
Magdalena: Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored? Economically it counts as a potentially lucrative market what with almost 40 million people living there. Politically it is seen as an upstart with major hang ups regarding its neighbors and its past, some countries see it as a useful tool (loyal puppy) as a hedge against the political ambitions of others. Poland is a good example of a country that needs a strong military for future contingencies, just in case (for only a true fool disregards the lessons of history). Some countries recognize this, some don't. The whole Is it Eastern Europe or Central debate is silly because it depends on your own perspective and it is funny to see Poles so shocked at being lumped together with Eastern Europeans. True, you don't see the squat toilets that you commonly see farther east, but rural Poland is babushka-wearing bumpkin territory that evokes images of eastern domains. Unsurprisingly, Belarussians and Ukrainians see Poland as "the west." Germans think Poland is essentially "eastern" just as I have heard a Swedish girl once say that she does not want to go to Poland because she does not want to ride around in "stinky Polish east European buses." (direct quote) Debate this all you want, I'm just repeating what I hear here and there.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 19, 09, 11:17 / #
Juche: Germans think Poland is essentially "eastern" Well...of course....everything east of us is eastern for us!

rozumiemnicThreads: 3 Posts: 805 Joined: Nov 16, 09	Nov 19, 09, 11:28 / #
Juche: The whole Is it Eastern Europe or Central debate is silly because it depends on your own perspective Geographically Europe ends at the Ural mountains. Therefore Poland is Central Europe, regardless of the speaker's perspective.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09	Nov 19, 09, 12:11 / #
Who cares if Poland doesn´t count in the EU...at least it is not a victim of the EU´s evil islamization policies.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Nov 19, 09, 05:28 / #
Eurola: Is there still such thing? East Europe? Russia, Belarussia and Ukraine are in East Europe (I consider Lithuania,Latvia and Estonia to be Balticum, their own place)

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Nov 19, 09, 12:13 / #
BrutalButcher: not a victim of the EU´s evil islamization policies. And what might those be?

rozumiemnicThreads: 3 Posts: 805 Joined: Nov 16, 09	Nov 19, 09, 12:17 / #
jonni: And what might those be? A figment of the Penguin's tortured imagination...;@)

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09	Edited by: Juche Nov 19, 09, 16:28 / #
rozumiemnic: Therefore Poland is Central Europe, regardless of the speaker's perspective. that is absolute location you are referring to, in terms of relative location it is an eastern country therefore the speaker's perspective has everything to do with it. obviously.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09	Nov 21, 09, 16:09 / #
jonni Massive immigration from muslim countries...supression of freedom of speech. Sharia courts, ISlam lessons at schools, punishment of anti-Islamic speech AND construction of new mosques.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Edited by: jonni Nov 21, 09, 16:22 / #
BrutalButcher: supression of freedom of speech Where? By whom? BrutalButcher: ISlam lessons at schools And Hinduism lessons, Christianity lessons. Judaism lessons too. But not here in Poland. BrutalButcher: punishment of anti-Islamic speech Where? By whom? BrutalButcher: construction of new mosques Any and all religious communities are free to build their places of worship. With their own money. Though here in Poland our tax zlotys are being spent on a giant Christian church, paid for by all, even non-Christians. But this is off-topic. The question is whether or not Poland counts in Europe. It does. Under EU voting rules, Poland has a very large say. Poland's image is compromised right now, due to bad behaviour by the old PiS government and Pres. Kaczyński, but that is slowly changing.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09	Nov 21, 09, 16:33 / #
jonni Stupid liberal. The EU only cares about money and power...not about European culture and heritage. WHat a shame.

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,189 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Nov 21, 09, 16:37 / #
BrutalButcher: Stupid liberal. You can tell a lot about somebody when they start making insults. BrutalButcher: The EU only cares about money and power...not about European culture and heritage. WHat a shame. Culture and heritage tends to take care of itself. It can't be manipulated no matter how much money in EU subsidies are thrown at it. Though a lot of EU money is spent on culture and heritage. 'Power and money' is what the EU is largely for. It started as a trade bloc.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 26, 09, 01:23 / #
I agree, jonni. Culture rests with the people and their passion, NOT with some punkass so-called Dept of Culture. They just fritter away cash to the chagrin of many.

BrutalButcherThreads: 1 Posts: 623 Joined: Nov 10, 09	Nov 28, 09, 17:26 / #
AT least Poland is not Albania. What a mistake in European territory...

MichalThreads: - Posts: 2,408 Joined: Feb 27, 07	Edited by: Michal Nov 28, 09, 17:29 / #
pawian: claim Poland is ignored by Europe, others maintain it is already or going to be an important player soon. No, it will never be an important part of Europe. It is too late in European history for that. Now, with Asia and especially China is going to be the new force to be watched, Poland will fall even further behind. Hd Poland been free since the end of World War 2 in 1945, it might have had a chance

krysiaThreads: 26 Posts: 3,604 Joined: Aug 10, 06	Nov 28, 09, 18:05 / #
pawian: For centuries we have been the worse part of Europe, looked down on by other Europeans That is what some uneducated Poles believe and that is why things happen the way they do in Poland. This is their view and that explains why when they come to America they think they should get everything free, that Americans should pay for them, that USA should abolish their visa. They don't return when their visa expires and look for illegal ways such as marriage to a US citizen to stay legally instead of returning back to Poland and make something out of their own country. The intelligent Poles stay in Poland while the less intelligent ones come to America, stay illegally and forget how to properly speak Polish anymore. To them "karpety", "kary", "nepki", "insiury" becomes a language. The intelligent Poles don't mix English with Polish. Those Poles believe in their country and should be respected because they know Poland is a beautiful, full of history country and don't care what others think of them.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Nov 28, 09, 21:49 / #
krysia: The intelligent Poles stay in Poland while the less intelligent ones come to America There are exceptions, of course. I know a few intelligent guys who went to US to make a buck or two. Including me. :):):):):):) Another case of appreciation. Some German politicians are very considerate of Poland and are visibly trying to keep up good relations. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,662900,00.html [...] A controversy has been raging for the past year over appointments to the board of directors of the Flight, Expulsion and Reconciliation Foundation. The foundation's planned documentation center in Berlin is intended to memorialize the ordeals of people who have suffered expulsion and to further advance reconciliation with Poland, but the government in Warsaw is opposed to Steinbach's inclusion in the board of directors. German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle has announced his veto of Steinbach's candidacy. This is crucial because anyone hoping to be appointed to the foundation board must have the support of the entire administration. Merkel has been trying for some time to convince Steinbach to abandon her claim to board membership, but Steinbach has stood firm. In doing so, she has not only provoked a crisis in the new coalition government of Merkel's conservative Christian Democratic Union (CDU), the CDU's Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU), and the business-friendly Free Democratic Party (FDP), but has also highlighted the deficits of Merkel's governing style, which is often based on adopting a "wait and see" approach when faced with difficult decisions. [...]

TheOtherThreads: 4 Posts: 1,438 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 28, 09, 22:11 / #
pawian Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Having this chapter of history covered in debth in the documentation centre might not be in the interest of the Polish government, I would assume.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 28, 09, 22:42 / #
TheOther: Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Of course she is! If it wouldn't be Mrs. Steinbach it would be someone else. Now Poland had grudgingly and mopingly to accept that the center is being build but that still doesn't stop them from heaping abuse to the woman they perceive as the main "guilty" for it.

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Nov 28, 09, 22:59 / #
TheOther: Isn't Steinbach just a scapegoat/ instrument for the Polish government to avoid/ suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Having this chapter of history covered in debth in the documentation centre might not be in the interest of the Polish government, I would assume. Poles are not afraid of revealing the story of German expellees. Much has been done so far, we have already talked about it here in this forum. Nobody serious in Poland denies the fact that German civilians suffered a tragic fate. But Steinbach is unacceptable to Polish government and most Poles. How Poles see Steinbach: Is this image justified? Yes, to some extent. 30% leaders of German Expellee Organizatian belonged to Nazi party during WW2. E.g., a vice president of the Organization was a judge in occupied Poland, and he sentenced Poles to death for minor transgressions. Stenibach claims that the Center she wants to lead is going to cover all expulsions during WW2. However, the website she created gives false information about the expulsions of Poles from Polish land occupied by Germans - 400.000 instead of 2 million. Her expellee past is also very controvercial - her family settled in Kashuby region after German had conquered Poland in 1939, she was born in occupied Rumia near Gdańsk in 1943. And they had to leave it in 1945, so she believes she has the right to usurp the title of expellee for herself. Isn`t it funny? :):):):) In short - Polish politicians consider Stenibach a liar and impostor. TheOther: suppress any discussion about the ethnic cleansing which happened in Silesia, Pomerania and East Prussia after the war? Besides, haven`t we already said here that most of ethnic cleansing was done by German Nazi administration when it gave orders to German civilians to leave their houses before the Red Army`s invasion?