Does Poland count in Europe or is it ignored?

Torq:

Actually, it was the order of the German authorities to evacuate Wrocław and it was
carried out by Wehrmacht who kicked out 95% of its German popualtion before turning
the city into a "festung".

Bratwurst Boy:

Excuse me if I doubt your polish tales....and so should you.

On 19 January 1945, Hanke ordered the civilian inhabitants of the city to evacuate to the German heartland. Most of the civilians were evacuated to the Dresden area.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 28, 09, 23:14 / #
pawian: Is this image justified? Well, alone that image puts you into the "not to be taken seriously"-corner! Mrs Steinbach is not only a person of integrity but in the same party and a friend of our chancellor, Mrs. Merkel... Next time you have a disagreement with her will you put a Nazi-uniform to her too? pawian: 30% leaders of German Expellee Organizatian belonged to Nazi party during WW2. Well...most grown up Germans were in some way or the others...not only the refugees. But she wasn't even in the Hitler youth like some others...as the catholic pope for example. Do you have problems with the pope too? How is it for catholic Poles now having to follow a NAZI GERMAN! Where are all the funny pics of the pope in uniform??? pawian: Her expellee past is also very controvercial She was chosen by the expellees to speak for them, that's all what has to interest you! You are NOT chosing for us! She had to leave her home as a 2 year old...Babies were forcible thrown out too. Many of the victims were innocent children. pawian: In short - Polish politicians consider Stenibach a liar and impostor. I would rather say....a someone who keeps putting the finger in an still open, hurting wound and just won't stop because she knows that a healing can only begin if the wound is seen, talked about, accepted and treated! Some Poles would rather prefer to hide eyes and ears and throwing tantrums. There is all the hate and venom coming from!

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 28, 09, 23:20 / #
Poles will refer you to the red army and case closed.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 28, 09, 23:23 / #
southern: Poles will refer you to the red army and case closed. Not that I think a greek opinion is needed or wanted in this topic I'm nonetheless glad it's not the Poles deciding this issue... But I can see that Mrs. Steinbach will refrain from her promised place in the Center to not to hold up the project. She is that kind of a woman, that's why she is respected and well liked...

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Nov 28, 09, 23:25 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Some Poles would rather prefer to hide eyes and ears and throwing tantrums. There is all the hate and venom coming from! It wasn`t Poles who invaded Germany and killed 6 million German citizens. It was rather the opposite. :):):):) And that was a direct reason for expulsions of remaining Germans from the Polish territory. Germans will be held responible for that till the end of this world. :):):) So, shut your trap up and simply accept the fact that Steinbach is unacceptable to Poles. :):):):):)

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 28, 09, 23:25 / #
I don't think Poland had much to do with the expelling of Germans. This was stipulated by Stalin at the Yalta Conference in 1945. The russians would have the east of the ammended Curzon line and Poland would get the part of Germany up to the river Oder. Uk said no but the USA said ok. Poland had a puppet Red Army Government under Beruit at the time and the Government in Exile were not allowed at the conference.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 28, 09, 23:31 / #
pawian: It wasn`t Poles who invaded Germany and killed 6 million German citizens. It was rather the opposite. :):):):) And we have ALOT of memorials and centers and documentations about that, don't we? pawian: Germans will be held responible for that till the end of this world. :):):) Who cares...but your smilies make me nervous....are you having fun with this history? A little sicko or what? pawian: So, shut your trap up and simply accept the fact that Steinbach is unacceptable to Poles. :):):):):) Again, who cares! You can't deny Mrs. Steinbach her biggest victory: This center is being build. A long fight is over, she won! :):):):):):) And you are right to hate her, without her fighting for so long and her personality it wouldn't have come so far :) Steinbach for Chancellor! :)

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Nov 29, 09, 00:45 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Who cares...but your smilies make me nervous....are you having fun with this history? A little sicko or what? Not sicko. Making Germans nervous is my hobby.... :):):):):):):):):) Bratwurst Boy: You can't deny Mrs. Steinbach her biggest victory: This center is being build. A long fight is over, she won! :):):):):):) The idea of the Center is OK. Poles have nothing against :):):):) as long as the Center provides true information about the reasons of expulsion of Germans. The truth is that German refugees experienced what German occupation administration had practised in Poland during WW2. E.g., read about forced expulsions of Poles from Zamojskie region. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aktion_Zamo%C5%9B%C4%87 In short, the Center is Ok but the idea of Stenibach as the head of the Center is not OK. She is a liar after all. Bratwurst Boy: And we have ALOT of memorials and centers and documentations about that, don't we? Yes. Poland is stuffed with German criminal occupation memorials. :):):) My favourite: In the town of Chojnice, a memorial to local teachers who perished during WW2: Glory to Fallen Teachers, 1939-1945 Names: Bratwurst Boy: Steinbach for Chancellor! :) You can`t make me nervous.... :):):):):):):): Bratwurst Boy: gain, who cares! Well, some German politicians do care. So, there is still hope for full reconcilliation. :):):):):)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 00:53 / #
pawian: In short, the Center is Ok but the idea of Stenibach as the head of the Center is not OK. She is a liar after all. Why is she a liar? pawian: You can`t make me nervous.... :):):):):):):): Damn :(

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Nov 29, 09, 01:17 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Why is she a liar? Isn`t it enough she claims to be an expellee though her family had appeared in Poland as occupants and she was born in occupied Polish land in 1943? Also, she claims she works for reconciliation between Poland and Germany but in fact she is decisively anti-Polish. In 1991 she was against Polish German border agreement, and later on against Polish access to NATO and EU. And a few other..... The Center`s website, as if in expectation of being headed by Erica Steinbach, spreads lies and misinformation: Oktober 1939 - März 1941 460.000 Polen http://www.z-g-v.de/aktuelles/?id=58 What about other expulsions of Poles, including the one from Zamojskie region? And other, estimated at more than 2 million, let alone next 2 million of Polish slave workers in Germany?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 01:22 / #
pawian: Isn`t it enough she claims to be an expellee though her family had appeared in Poland as occupants and she was born in occupied Polish land in 1943? Well, she was expelled as a baby...so was her family. Your point being? Some Poles today even say Danzig or Breslau have been polish all along and the Germans had been only short time squatter... pawian: In 1991 she was against Polish German border agreement, and later on against Polish access to NATO and EU. Yes, that she was and that is the main argument against her. But that is to simplicistic. She wasn't against the border agreement per se but she demanded that a solution for the expellees should be found together with the border agreement. pawian: What about other expulsions of Poles, including the one from Zamojskie region? I remember that the Poles were invited to take part in the building of the center but that they under the Kaczinskies threw a tantrum and decided to forbid all historians to work with the Germans. They also took all their documents with them. I'm not sure about the current stand but I hope we can work together on that and get the truth out and find the correct numbers and fates of those people...

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 29, 09, 10:11 / #
Steinbach is a hardcore *****, who built her entire political career on hatred and anti-Polish resentment. Her political career in CDU started in the 70's when she was one of the most active opponents of recognising the Polish-German border (she voted in the Bundestag against the recognising of the border). As for the "expelees" - most of them run away themselves in fear of incoming Red Army or as a result of the evacuation ordered by German authorities. The "expelling" of Germans were not an initiative of Poles or Czechs but fulfilling of the international agreements, to which III Reich had agreed by signing the unconditional surrender.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 16:21 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Excuse me if I doubt your polish tales....and so should you. From Wikipedia Gauleiter Karl Hanke declared the city a Festung (fortress) to be held at all costs. Hanke finally lifted a ban on the evacuation of women and children when it was almost too late. During his poorly organised evacuation in early March 1945, 18,000 people froze to death in icy snowstorms and -20°C weather. By the end of the Siege of Breslau, half the city had been destroyed. An estimated 40,000 civilians lay dead in the ruins of homes and factories. After a siege of nearly three months, "Fortress Breslau" surrendered on 7 May 1945, just before the end of the war. This does not sound like a Polish tale to me.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 29, 09, 16:26 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oh please...if it had been a Herr Schmidt you would hate Herrn Schmidt! If Herr Schmidt would turn the great idea of a center against expulsions into a center of historical revisionism and spreading lies, then YES - I would also oppose the actions of Herr Schmidt. I wouldn't use the word hate to describe my feelings towards Steinbach. Pity, sorrow, sadness and dissapointment would be more suitable ones. (Calling her a liar is just icing of the cake) Oh, please - if I ever get 2-3 hours of spare time, I will gather some of her more blatant lies, translate the sources and post them here. The ***** is a compulsive liar - it's a fact!

pawianThreads: 80 Posts: 4,542 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Nov 29, 09, 09:44 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Well, she was expelled as a baby...so was her family. Your point being? The point is that you can`t expell an occupant, and that`s what her family was. You can only drive them away. :):):):):) And it doesn`t matter they had children or not. They were still occupants. Brat, if I take your house/apartment by force, and you bring muscular guys wearing Red to remove me, will it be expulsion or throwing away? :):):):):):) The Red Army or fear of it drove most German citizens away from Polish lands. Poles had nothing to do with it. :):):):):) Bratwurst Boy: I'm not sure about the current stand but I hope we can work together on that and get the truth out and find the correct numbers and fates of those people... I hope so too. The lack of complete info on ALL expulsions and refugee fate implemented by Germans in war-torn Europe, without full explanation why Germans were driven away from their or not their lands, will make the Center a senseless, German-oriented, biased circus. It could happen under Steinbach`s leadership and that`s what some German politicians predict and are afraid of.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 13:29 / #
Torq: The "expelling" of Germans were not an initiative of Poles or Czechs but fulfilling of the international agreements, to which III Reich had agreed by signing the unconditional surrender. As I said earlier the "Expelling" of Germans, from places like Brenslau/wroclaw and replacing them with Poles from Lwow, was agreed my the 3 main Allied Leaders at the Yalta Conference. The Germans did not agree to anything, they were forced to accept. Churchill trusted Stalin (fool) and Roosevelt wanted the Stalin to help fight Japan. They both thought they could talk Stalin round by the end of the War in Germany. As you can see they failed. Poland has always counted in Europe but they stupidly left it to the Soviets at the end of WW2.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 15:53 / #
That center is so needed! I see it again and again by just watching Poles telling their misconceptions what that all was about. Just an example, the Germans in Breslau were purposely starved by the Poles with the help of the red army...they had to leave or would die. No rations for Germans, just for Poles. And when people flee a war situation that has nothing to do with "voluntarily expulsion", are you all sickos or what? Poles fled too, French fled too...everywhere civilians backed their bags as their towns got shelled...forbidding them to return or a short notion later for those who stayed they had to gather next day at ten o'clock at the main market with one bag for each person or they would be shot - THAT is no voluntarily expulsion either. That center is soo needed, again we have to thank Mrs. Steinbach eternal for that! :):):):):):)

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 15:59 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Just an example, the Germans in Breslau were purposely starved by the Poles with the help of the red army...they had to leave or would die. No rations for Germans, just for Poles. The Red Army wanted the Germans out. Read about the Yalta Agreement. The East was Stalin's big plan for a buffer between Germany and Russia. The Polish had no choice.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 29, 09, 16:02 / #
I think the Czechs actively ''helped'' the Germans to repartiate while Poles constrained themselves to looting.

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 16:05 / #
southern The Poles kicked out of Lwow moved into the places the Germans were moved from. I don't call that looting. The Ethnic Cleansing was a Soviet tactic and plan, it was not Polish.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 29, 09, 16:07 / #
Basically they told them to leave the heavy baggage in place in order to be able to run more quickly.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 16:08 / #
Steveramsfan: The Polish had no choice. Really? Then why fight Poles tooth and nail against a documentation center about that dark and important chapter of our past? Neither the Russians nor anybody else from Yalta has any objections or qualms...but the Poles scream like nobody else. (And they hate Mrs. Steinbach for being the face of the center - all the other accusations are just bad jokes) You could think they have something to hide and don't want to be reminded of that...

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 29, 09, 16:11 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Just an example, the Germans in Breslau were purposely starved by the Poles with the help of the red army...they had to leave or would die. No rations for Germans, just for Poles. Actually, it was the order of the German authorities to evacuate Wrocław and it was carried out by Wehrmacht who kicked out 95% of its German popualtion before turning the city into a "festung". By the way - Wrocław would be a good place for the centre as a lot of so-called "expulsions" took place there. The idea of locating it in Berlin is quite ridiculous :) Bratwurst Boy: You could think they have something to hide and don't want to be reminded of that... Naaah, that's not it. We simply oppose the Steinbach's lies and obvious revisionism - that's all.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 16:14 / #
Torq: Actually, it was the order of the German authorities to evacuate Wrocław and it was carried out by Wehrmacht who kicked out 95% of its German popualtion before turning the city into a "festung". Excuse me if I doubt your polish tales....and so should you. Till '45 there was actually a ban for civilians to leave the city! As the ban was lifted it was much to late: And I remember that there was a lot of talk about a polish-german cooperation, but it was the Poles who preferred to mope and to get out of the project. (Let me see if I find a link to that!) Torq: We simply oppose the Steinbach's lies and obvious revisionism - that's all. Oh please...if it had been a Herr Schmidt you would hate Herrn Schmidt! You hate the idea of such a center, and you know that it is the merit of Mrs. Steinbach who just wouldn't give up that this center is now being build....oh and how you hate here for that! :):) (Calling her a liar is just icing of the cake)

SteveramsfanThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Nov 22, 09	Nov 29, 09, 16:16 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Mrs. Steinbach Reading about her I can see why the Poles want to block what she is doing. Not through something to hide but from her blinkered view it was the Polish at fault for the expulsions. I'm not Anti-German but this woman is deluded.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 29, 09, 16:17 / #
They let actually the elderly,women and children evacuate the enclave,but the railways were overwhelmed by the thousands of people and many prefered to turn back or stay in the enclave.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 29, 09, 16:18 / #
Steveramsfan: Reading about her I can see why the Poles want to block what she is doing. What did you read about her?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 29, 09, 16:19 / #
Torq: Actually, it was the order of the German authorities to evacuate Wrocław and it was carried out by Wehrmacht who kicked out 95% of its German popualtion before turning the city into a "festung". Bratwurst Boy: Excuse me if I doubt your polish tales....and so should you. On 19 January 1945, Hanke ordered the civilian inhabitants of the city to evacuate to the German heartland. Most of the civilians were evacuated to the Dresden area. Expelled? Rather evacuated by Wehrmacht, following the orders of German authorities. http://wapedia.mobi/en/Siege_of_Breslau

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 16:21 / #
Torq: On 19 January 1945, Hanke ordered the civilian inhabitants of the city to evacuate to the German heartland. Most of the civilians were evacuated to the Dresden area. That's what I said...at that date the red army was nearly already inside...till then Hanke forbade any evacuations...the following was a catastrophe. But believe me no German thought he had seen his home for the last time. They planned to come back. To call that "voluntarily expellation" is just sick!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 29, 09, 16:23 / #
read above. And alone on that discussions here you see how needed such a documentation center was and is! Again, if no one else who had a hand in this ethnic cleansing of Germans blinks an eye then why throw the Poles such a tantrum if they have nothing to hide?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 29, 09, 16:26 / #
Does anyone know where this Gauleiter Hanke is?Frau Steinbach has to first find him to ask him some questions.