Would Poland/EU Support War Crimes Investigation for Gaza Holocaust?

A day after a Spanish court ordered an investigation into an assassination of a Palestinian militant in 2002, the Spanish government has said it will cancel the investigation, and change the law to prevent such investigations being undertaken in the future.

The moves came after Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni telephoned the Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos on Friday. Livni said after the call Moratinos told her he ‘would fix it.’

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Edited by: joepilsudski Feb 1, 09, 14:45 / #
Israeli Crimes Against Humanity in Gaza Would Poland or the EU support a thorough investigation of the mass murder and war crimes committed by Israeli forces in the recent Gaza invasion?...Something like or identical with the hague Tribunal that investigated so-called Serb actions in Bosnia?...What is your opinion? The story from the ground in Gaza...Essential reading. [url=http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m51392&hd=&size=1&l=e][/url]

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 14:55 / #
Spain opens war-crimes case against Israel http://www.euronews.net/en/article/30/01/2009/spain-opens-war-crimes-c ase-against-israel/ Spain to stop investigations of Israeli war crimes http://rinf.com/alt-news/war-terrorism/spain-to-stop-investigations-of -israeli-war-crimes/5182/ A day after a Spanish court ordered an investigation into an assassination of a Palestinian militant in 2002, the Spanish government has said it will cancel the investigation, and change the law to prevent such investigations being undertaken in the future. The moves came after Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni telephoned the Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Moratinos on Friday. Livni said after the call Moratinos told her he ‘would fix it.’

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Edited by: Moderator Feb 1, 09, 15:08 / #
Note to moderators: Text editor would not allow me to create working URL link...Here is part of story from URUKNET...Just Google this site to get full story. an 30, 2009 One family's story http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m51392&hd=&size=1&l=e There are many stories. Each account -- each murdered individual, each wounded person, each burned-out and broken house, each shattered window, trashed kitchen, strewn item of clothing, bedroom turned upside down, bullet and shelling hole in walls, offensive Israeli army graffiti -- is important. I start to tell the stories of Ezbet Abbed Rabu, eastern Jabaliya, where homes off the main north south road, Salah al-Din, were penetrated by bullets, bombs and/or soldiers. If they weren't destroyed, they were occupied or shot up. Or occupied and then destroyed. The army was creative in their destruction, in their defacing of property, in their insults. Creative in the ways they could shit in rooms and save their shit for cupboards and unexpected places. Actually, their creativity wasn't so broad. The rest was routine: ransack the house from top to bottom. Turn over or break every clothing cupboard, kitchen shelf, television, computer, window pane and water tank. link added

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 15:23 / #
You know, this could flare up again very soon. By clubbing together in a show of solidarity, we may avert this. A fresh, new assault could take place any day now. We need to strike while the iron's hot. If we don't follow through, Israel will use the same pretext to wipe out even more Palestinians.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 15:27 / #
The problem is that Isreal has the right to exist. Palestnians have the right to exist. Hamas uses human shields, rocket launchers are based in schools and hospitals. Isreal is brutal as well. The other fact is that if Israel will make some concesions it will never be enought.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 15:35 / #
True enough, Prince. Look deep enough and you will see a Jewish connection in PO. They will not lean towards the side of Palestine, that's for sure. However, I think they would support an investigation, yes. As for how the investigation would be conducted, that may be another story.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 15:38 / #
Seanus: True enough, Prince. Look deep enough and you will see a Jewish connection in PO. :))))))))))))) Seanus: They will not lean towards the side of Palestine, that's for sure.However, I think they would support an investigation, yes. As for how the investigation would be conducted, that may be another story. In my opinion Hamas leaders should be punished for holding rocket launchers is schools and hospitals. They dream about more civil victimes to show them in the TV. ... Their aim is to totaly smash Israel not to get more land or better life for their people. Everybody knows that.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 15:45 / #
I agree, Prince. I'm not a fan of Hamas for the reasons you outlined. They should be punished with the relevant penalty. What about Israel, Prince? What should be done with them? You said they were "brutal". Olmert today even stated that there would be a "disproportionate" response. Proportionality is an important idea in international law and he is just giving a one-finger salute to that.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Feb 1, 09, 15:48 / #
While noone nor any nation or group is above the law of civilized humankind, Israel SHOULD be permitted the right, at least, to defend her borders as well as her citizens! Israel has never had a concerted policy of driving the Arabs, i.e. Palestinians, "back into the sea", yet the latter is precisely what Hamas, Hetzbollah and other radical movements aim to do (...and have practically done!) Is the United Nations perfect?? FAR FROM IT!!! Yet, as Churchill once said about democracy: It's the most ineffective form of government in history. Yet, have we devised anything better? (freely paraphrased)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 15:56 / #
So you think attack is the best form of defence, Marek? I keep saying it, why not intercept their rockets? Also, why not hit them with rockets to let them know how it feels?

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Edited by: Marek Feb 1, 09, 16:02 / #
Seanus, please don't misunderstand me. Attack is the WORST, that is, the last resort form of defence. Yet, if all else fails or has failed thus far, well, often the bully only knows brute force and direct, punitive action. Resistance must start somewhere and usually only total defeat is the answer. Whether that defeat need be a necessarily military kind, might well be debated!

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Feb 1, 09, 16:04 / #
Israel is now a nation run by gangsters & has demonstrated it will use mass murder to acheive it's goal, which is not 'it's existence' but a complete domination of the entire Middle East...I can see from some of the replies already, that people are misinformed as to what the real Isareli aims are, and also the sheer magnitude of the destruction and murder committed in Gaza...This is not about Hamas firing a few rockets at Israeli strip malls...This is about systematic murder of a people and destruction of a culture...This Israelis habe used F-15/16 fighters, white phosphorous, depleted uranium shells in addition to tanks, artillery, remote controlled drones and helicopter gunships against the civilian population in both Gaza and the West Bank...In addition, the Israelis have nuclear weapons in their arsenal, and have used various forms of gas in their incurssions into Lebanon and now Gaza....Human shields?...The Israelis use Arab & Muslim children, women and men for human target practice...They have blockaded medical supplies, killed doctors & medical workers, destroyed the Gaza power grid & water system...These war crimes are equal to acts by the Nazi regime and the Soviets, in fact are worse in many ways...The US is the biggest supporter of this genocidal regime, so we cannot expect much from the cowardly and hopelessly corrupt American regime...However, Europe, knowing something of the historic conflict and turmoil centering around the Israeli/Ashkenazim tribe, may be able to take some measures to reign in the mad dog regime.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 1, 09, 16:16 / #
Prince: rocket launchers are based in schools and hospitals. Prince: should be punished for holding rocket launchers is schools and hospitals Prince - do you have any links ( other than JP ) for these unsubstantiated claims ? Or maybe... Media Manipulation The Immigrant Absorption Ministry announced on Sunday it was setting up an "army of bloggers," to be made up of Israelis who speak a second language, to represent Israel in "anti-Zionist blogs" in English, French, Spanish and Germans

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 16:35 / #
youtube.com/watch?v=QcEPyJP3a8w&feature=related, Pat Buchanan making things clear. Rabbie Burns was mentioned at 9.25. This last part is impressive. The funny thing is, those in the Knesset even admit to flagrant violations of international law. Their own lawyers told them so.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Feb 1, 09, 16:07 / #
In your eyes, what constitutes "all else", Marek?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 1, 09, 16:38 / #
joepilsudski: Would Poland/EU Support War Crimes Investigation for Gaza Holocaust? A very good question. I personally would love to see the African Union deal with it.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 16:41 / #
Well, they saw it in Rwanda so why not? Only, it was taken care of at The Hague.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 17:17 / #
I am not Israeli Agent of Influnce :)They have just started recrutation. I do believe that many countries have such people thought. szkotja2007: Prince - do you have any links ( other than JP ) for these unsubstantiated claims ? Google hamas rockets from school. I have seen it in Polish TV. and I have seen in our TV palestinan POW's being shoot in the legs after being caught so IMO both videos were true.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 17:32 / #
Well, sorry, but Hamas aren't gonna make themselves easy targets. They are totally outgunned by Israel who are armed to the hilt thanks to others. So what if they have rockets in schools? This is a fierce battle which has to be fought tactically. Israel needs to get right in there and conduct a HUGE operation rather than just carpet bombing innocent people. If the world is really so concerned with combatting international terrorism, many special units need to be sent it to capture Hamas members. The SAS, Delta Force, the Shin Bet, GROM and the French Foreign Legion for example.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 1, 09, 17:37 / #
Prince: Google hamas rockets from school. tinyurl.com/bkqyfr - I has interweb Ok, so how far down do you have to scroll until you get non IDF propaganda ? Prince: I have seen it in Polish TV. So it must be true ? This is why Israel invests so much in propaganda. Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes a truth.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 17:37 / #
Seanus: So what if they have rockets in schools? This is a fierce battle which has to be fought tactically. The problem is that it is not war for land or gold. Isreal act as it acts but Hamas wants Israel total distruction. As to rockets in schools ... making target form their kids just to show them dead in TV isn't the best method.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 1, 09, 17:40 / #
Seanus: Israel needs to get right in there and conduct a HUGE operation rather than just carpet bombing innocent people. Israel cannot win - Hamas just need to fire one rocket and it has won. In fact, Hamas just needs to fight and it has won. Remember, Hamas are disliked within and outside Gaza - Israel can only bolster Hamas support

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 17:42 / #
Szkotia2007. What do you consider perfect solution of this conflict ? What kind of result ? How would you like to reach it.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 1, 09, 17:44 / #
Israel acts as it acts but international law is what international law is. The same stands for decency and fair play. You are just trotting out the same message, Prince. Hamas, the organisation which lets Israel justify anything it wants. I don't like Hamas either but there are better ways to get rid of them. I've said so elsewhere. Send it elite hitmen from top special units. No it isn't the best method Prince, you are right. I seem to recall America employing Shock and Awe on a much bigger scale than Hamas do. Care to comment? Does your memory need refreshing? Gulf War 1991, Operation Desert Storm. The pictures of scorched Iraqi soldiers, surrendering I might add, were HORRIFIC. These are tactics which get attention, regardless of their rightness.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 1, 09, 17:45 / #
It is clear that Israel needs to stop its apartheid laws against the Palestinians. Enter in to talks about repatriation of land. Destruction of Israel ? Maybe, in the same way that the Republik Suid Afrika was. Prince: The problem is that it is not war for land or gold It is for land and water.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Feb 1, 09, 18:24 / #
Seanus: I've said so elsewhere. Send it elite hitmen from top special units. I agree it may be good solution. I don't know if for some countries would like to risk losing neutrality in this conflict but it is another issue. szkotja2007: Destruction of Israel ? Maybe, in the same way that the Republik Suid Afrika was. The whole problem is that it is huge ideological conflict and part of palestinian society doesn't recognise Israels right to exist. I would rather support Jimi Carter solution - independent Palestine, Idependent Israel. Palestians live in their country, Israelis live in their country. Some people would be moved to Palestine some people would be moved to Israel. Situation is hopeless and I have no doubts that when Israel will in some way stumble ... all their neighbours will try to destroy them.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 1, 09, 19:20 / #
so, when will PL support war crimes tribunals for bush and co.?

DtLebowskiThreads: 2 Posts: 36 Joined: Jan 4, 09	Feb 2, 09, 06:51 / #
Died in Iraq under US-British invasion: 100 000+ civilians only (some sources speak of several hundred thousand. Attack was launched by misinformation about "weapons of mass-destruction" ordered by Cheney and co. Gaza crisis 1300 victims (50%? civilians), second intifada (2000-2008) 4000+ Palestinian victims, 1000+ Israeli Jew victims (mostly civilians). Gaza attack was launched by daily Hamas fired Qassam-rockets during the cease-fire, sometimes they kill, but mostly have mental effect that also makes the Israeli public less emphatic for the Palestinians, not good situation. The day before the attack was launched some one hundred rockets was fired by Hamas killing two civilians. When Israel answers, world calls it "holocaust". I call it punch. Now, unfortunately, 50% of this receiving end of the punch are the innocent. But has the world heard about other kind of wars?

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Feb 2, 09, 07:05 / #
DtLebowski: I call it punch. I call it murder - there is a bit of a difference.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 2, 09, 08:07 / #
szkotja2007: I call it murder - there is a bit of a difference. so, when would it be self defense?