What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

At the end of the Second World War, the graves service of the British Army of the Rhine gathered together Commonwealth graves from all over Poland into three cemeteries, this being the largest. Those buried here died while prisoners of war during the German occupation, most of the graves coming from the cemetery at the large camp at Lamsdorf, Stalag VIIIB (after 1943 known as Stalag 344), where there was a hospital of 450 beds used only for Commonwealth prisoners. Before this hospital came into being the sick at Lamsdorf were treated at the hospital at Langenbielau: those who died were buried in Langenbielau Catholic Cemetery, and these graves were also moved to the Commonwealth plot at Krakow. Other graves brought into the cemetery were those of airmen who lost their lives during the Warsaw supply drop and the bombing of factories, railways and other strategic objectives. Some of these airmen were originally buried in Warsaw. There are now 483 Commonwealth casualties of the Second World War buried or commemorated in Krakow Rakowicki Cemetery. There are also 24 non war graves, those of civilian internees (including two Imperial War Graves Commission gardeners) and 15 Polish war graves.

He left his wife who was by now pregnant to go off to fight in France.

My Grandad – John Jeffers was one of the unfortunate ones who was caught by the Germans. He was sent to Stalag VIIIB which was later replaced by Stalag 344 (see the map below

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Edited by: Kilkline Dec 9, 08, 02:09 / #
celinski: Maybe if you used this on Germany? USED WHAT?? You've given me a link to an anecdote. Can you answer my question or not? What aircraft? Number? Fighting strength? You cant because you dont know and cant be bothered finding out because it will shatter your carefully created victim mentality. Please answer the basic questions I asked. HatefulBunch397: It's better to ask yourself: WHY WAS GERMANY THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT BUILT UP A WEHRMACHT AFTER WWI?????? Why dont you ask yourself that question and find out the answer by actually doing some reading rather than showing your ignorance of history with every post you make. I can understand why Harry got so p1ssed off in the end with you and Cellinski as its like arguing with school children who havent got to the European history module in school yet. Spoon-feeding you is getting boring.

Wroclaw Boy	Edited by: Wroclaw Boy Dec 9, 08, 03:40 / #
celinski: At least the USA didn't say they were going to help and declare war on Nazi's and then not show, Britain and France did and then continued to lie to Poland and say they were coming. The US entered the war at a time which was convenient for them. Britian had held off the onslaught indefinently. Germany had opened the second front against Russia. Hitler had been defeated in Stalingrad and the 6th army wiped out, the German war machine was beatable in its own back garden. Then Hitler declared war on USA. Finally when the US realised that Germany was at its weakest point since the outbreak they finally jumped in. Hardly a courageous commitment when stripped down.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Dec 9, 08, 04:46 / #
Wroclaw Boy: The US entered the war at a time which was convenient for them. Britian had held off the onslaught indefinently. The Soviets killed seven out of ten Germans. The Soviets not only "held off" the Germans the Soviets destroyed the cream of the German forces. Wroclaw Boy: Germany had opened the second front against Russia. Hitler had been defeated in Stalingrad and the 6th army wiped out, the German war machine was beatable in its own back garden. Von Manstein stabilized the southern front using his famous 'Backhand Stroke'. The war in the East was hardly settled after Stalingrad. Wroclaw Boy: Then Hitler declared war on USA. Finally when the US realised that Germany was at its weakest point since the outbreak they finally jumped in. Germany was weakest in February 1943 (Kasserine Pass)? Wroclaw Boy: Hardly a courageous commitment when stripped down. Though disgusted with Roosevelt the word "courage" is hardly appropriate when some 400,000+ Americans gave their lives in battle.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 9, 08, 05:52 / #
Kilkline: What aircraft? Number? Fighting strength? look it up yourself, better yet show the link where they were without. Wroclaw Boy: Britian had held off the onslaught indefinently. With US money and 25% of Britain forces ally.

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Dec 9, 08, 06:32 / #
celinski: look it up yourself, better yet show the link where they were without. I'm not the one claiming betrayal, you are and you have just illustrated that you have no valid reason to think so. Well done.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 9, 08, 06:56 / #
Kilkline: you are and you have just illustrated whatever, I see many links with Britain's planes so for this to be the reason, I guess if it makes you feel better. IMHO Britain as well as others betrayed Poland and worse played games with Polands peoples lives by pretending to be coming to help vs. just telling the truth. I don't know what was worse. Polish could have altered military options had they been privy to "real ally plans". Instead they bought what they were told, hook, line and sinker.

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Dec 9, 08, 07:01 / #
celinski: Polish could have altered military options had they been privy to "real ally plans". There were no allies in 1939 only different countries with there own agendas. Why do you think Britain didnt invade Germany?

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Dec 9, 08, 08:18 / #
JulietEcho: you haven’t proved a jack s$%##$, again Australian are not English. So let me re-phrase for your little scummy fuzzy pompon ass: No English graves that died in combat on Polish soil during WW2. The first grave you will (miraculously) find I will drive to and plant flowers and light some candles, and unlike your gay ass I stand behind my words. I would very much suggest that you get your foul lying excuse for a human down to Krakow and light candle at the following graves. These are only the names which start A to C. To find all the others you will need to go to http://www.cwgc.org/search/cemetery_reports.aspx?cemetery=2016900&mode =1 and look for any member of the RAF who was shot down during the time of the Uprising and was in Squadron 31, 34, 148 or 178. AIRD, DENNIS, D Sergeant ( Flt. Engr. ) 1875074 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 05/08/1944 19 ASHMORE, KENNETH JAMES, K J Sergeant ( Air Gnr. ) 1796373 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 05/08/1944 Unknown ASPINALL, CLIFFORD, C Sergeant ( Air Gnr. ) 2206350 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 05/08/1944 Unknown BARRETT, FERNARD JOSEPH, F J Flight Sergeant ( W.Op./Air Gnr. ) 1671099 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 15/08/1944 23 BONNEY, ALBERT MILVRON, A M Flying Officer ( Air Gnr. ) 53201 Royal Air Force 17/08/1944 22 BOWDEN, RONALD CECIL, R C Sergeant ( Air Gnr. ) 1877179 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 16/10/1944 21 BRADSHAW, EDWARD, E Warrant Officer ( Air Gnr. ) 9448551 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 17/08/1944 Unknown CARROLL, JOHN ALOYSIUS, J A Warrant Officer ( W.Op. [Air] ) 1117201 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 05/08/1944 Unknown CLARKE, JOHN DOUGLAS, J D Flight Sergeant ( Air Gnr. ) 527242 Royal Air Force 17/08/1944 Unknown COWAN, WILLIAM FRANCIS, W F Sergeant ( Air Gnr. ) 1902826 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 16/10/1944 31 CRABTREE, CHARLES WILLIAM, C W Pilot Officer 173346 Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve 05/08/1944 23

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 9, 08, 08:56 / #
<div class="quoting">Harry: Krakow and light candle at the following graves. </div> I don't see an issue with the condition of the graves as the photos show. Not all the ones buried here, died fighting in this location. At the end of the Second World War, the graves service of the British Army of the Rhine gathered together Commonwealth graves from all over Poland into three cemeteries, this being the largest. Those buried here died while prisoners of war during the German occupation, most of the graves coming from the cemetery at the large camp at Lamsdorf, Stalag VIIIB (after 1943 known as Stalag 344), where there was a hospital of 450 beds used only for Commonwealth prisoners. Before this hospital came into being the sick at Lamsdorf were treated at the hospital at Langenbielau: those who died were buried in Langenbielau Catholic Cemetery, and these graves were also moved to the Commonwealth plot at Krakow. Other graves brought into the cemetery were those of airmen who lost their lives during the Warsaw supply drop and the bombing of factories, railways and other strategic objectives. Some of these airmen were originally buried in Warsaw. There are now 483 Commonwealth casualties of the Second World War buried or commemorated in Krakow Rakowicki Cemetery. There are also 24 non war graves, those of civilian internees (including two Imperial War Graves Commission gardeners) and 15 Polish war graves. URL Just because they were sent here, they were captured in many locations and transported to this location. Here is a sory of one man that was fighting in France. He left his wife who was by now pregnant to go off to fight in France. My Grandad – John Jeffers was one of the unfortunate ones who was caught by the Germans. He was sent to Stalag VIIIB which was later replaced by Stalag 344 (see the map below I put this link because it has some great photo's. prisonersofwar.info/my_granddad's_story.htm

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Edited by: Harry Dec 9, 08, 09:43 / #
celinski: The British were equally inactive, sending their bombers to drop propaganda leaflets over a few German cities. Please stop with the lies Carol. The British bombing raids of 4 September 1939 have been mentioned repeatedly in this thread. celinski: Not all the ones buried here, died fighting in this location. Quite right Carol: not all of them did. But some of them did. celinski: Other graves brought into the cemetery were those of airmen who lost their lives during the Warsaw supply drop and the bombing of factories, railways and other strategic objectives. Some of these airmen were originally buried in Warsaw. As your own link shows, some of the graves do belong to British men who died in combat in Poland. celinski: Just because they were sent here, they were captured in many locations and transported to this location. Check which squadrons those men flew in and check the dates that they died. On those dates those squadrons were taking part in the operation to supply the 1944 Wrsaw Uprising (sadly the RAF were in no position to get supplies to the 1943 Warsaw uprising, what was the excuse of the AK?).

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Dec 9, 08, 14:27 / #
osiol: Something that more than one poster on this thread seems to be advocating as the best course of action. Only to the sociopathic. The best course of action to everyone else would have been not allowing the wehrmacht to get as powerful as it became. Why not just admit the truth? Western Europe initially wanted the wehrmacht because of the Soviets and their huge numbers. There was all kinds of talk about Bolshevikism and fear of that. Talk of communism and even more paranoia there. Western Europe was scared of the Soviet Union. Britain and France miscalculated tho' , when they trusted Germany to be the one with the wehrmacht. They should have learned their lesson during WWI. Obviously, Britain and France didn't calculate the aggression. Mistake on their parts that took many, many, lives and not just civilians. They put their own troops at much greater risk by trusting Germany. Originally, Britain thought it was just going to be Poland but Germany kept grabbing more. The reason Poland was betrayed is because it was seen as a bubbling couldron of communism and bolshevikism. It was seen as unstable and unpredictable. Western Europe wasn't in the mood for any more revolutionaries, and wanted to eradicate which is exactly what happened. I don't think Britain would have done anything at all if it weren't for international pressure and the threat of Germany. They miscalculated the aggression of Germany. Who knows, maybe they didn't think the Blitz would happen...I read somewheres that Germany didn't initially want a war with Britain and wanted to be allies. Regardless, Britain was willing to sacrifice Poland, for reasons stated above, apparently.

IronsE11Threads: 2 Posts: 799 Joined: Mar 3, 08	Dec 9, 08, 14:47 / #
HatefulBunch397: Why don't you address my questions about the Treaty Of Versailles and how Germany was allowed to violate it's "points". I think they were allowed to do that so the Wehrmacht could become a formidable force against the Soviet military. Were the US party to the Treaty of Versailles? If so, why didn't they do anything about it? Let me guess... it wasn't their duty? It was Britain's duty to ensure the balance of power in Europe. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but stop looking for someone to blame. It's boring.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 9, 08, 14:58 / #
IronsE11: It was Britain's duty to ensure the balance of power in Europe. Lets face it Poland fought after being shafted, trusting once more (silly Polish) in a promise of a free Poland at the end of the war. Betrayed by all once more.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Dec 9, 08, 15:01 / #
IronsE11: Let me guess... it wasn't their duty? It was Britain's duty to ensure the balance of power in Europe. Not entirely but Britain has responsibility. Britain and France were the closest to the situation. Back then, they were in the position to act much more quickly. During the 1930s, rapid deployment of troops from far away(as in across the Atlantic Ocean...that kind of distance) was much more complicated! How can it be denied Britain and France, because of proximity, be the first responders? America should have committed it's share after the ground invasion by Britain and France, or done it's part to enforce the points before. US failed there.

Wroclaw Boy	Dec 9, 08, 10:42 / #
celinski: Wroclaw Boy: Britian had held off the onslaught indefinently. With US money and 25% of Britain forces ally. US loan actually. The loan lease program.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Dec 9, 08, 14:07 / #
Kilkline: Why dont you ask yourself that question and find out the answer by actually doing some reading rather than showing your ignorance of history with every post you make. I can understand why Harry got so p1ssed off in the end with you and Cellinski as its like arguing with school children who havent got to the European history module in school yet. You only say that because you know I make a valid point. I point the fingers at the ones who deserve it. The ones who did nothing. You say I am ignorant????? DID WORLD WAR II HAPPEN???? Oh, let me guess it's some media conspiracy, it never actually happened which is a crazy lie Europe wants the rest of the world to believe. Why don't you address my questions about the Treaty Of Versailles and how Germany was allowed to violate it's "points". I think they were allowed to do that so the Wehrmacht could become a formidable force against the Soviet military.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Dec 9, 08, 14:17 / #
HatefulBunch397: The ones who did nothing Something that more than one poster on this thread seems to be advocating as the best course of action.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 9, 08, 15:04 / #
IronsE11: Were the US party to the Treaty of Versailles? If so, why didn't they do anything about it? Actually Wilson pulled out after he thought it was agreed on his "14 points" (something the Germans agreed to too). He thought the Treaty which later came to pass much to vindictive and plain stupid, not one to reconciliate and to ensure peace! URL ....Opposition to the Fourteen Points among British and French leaders became clear after hostilities ceased: the British were against freedom of the seas; the French demanded war reparations. Wilson was forced to compromise on many of his ideals to ensure that his most important point, the establishment of the League of Nations, was accepted. In the end, the Treaty of Versailles went against many of the principles of the Fourteen Points, both in detail and in spirit. Rather than "peace without victory," the treaty sought harsh punishment of Germany both financially and territorially. The resulting bitterness in Germany laid the seeds for the rise of Nazism in the 1930s which resulted, in part, from the economic depression of the 1920s in Germany which the Versailles Treaty helped create.... . The United States Senate refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles... . Wilson was awarded 1919 Nobel Peace Prize in 1920 for his peace-making efforts. ... The US are the least to blame here! Haty seems just to be another polish big mouth with lots of demands, empty phrases and reproaches...but no viable alternatives! Add to that a lacking of historical understanding and you have your typical mix...

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Dec 9, 08, 15:19 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Actually Wilson pulled out after he thought it was agreed on his "14 points" (something the Germans agreed too). He thought the Treaty which later came to pass much to vindictive and plain stupid, not one to reconciliate and to ensure peace! And you seem like a typical sociopath. I think the US are to blame as well but come on. Think of the distance! US is half way across the world Britain and France are in Germany's backyard. Of those three, who is obviously going to have an easier time acting quickly? The United States Senate refused to ratify the Treaty of Versailles... Without ratifying, how much responsibility does the US have? One huge mistake with the treaty was Western Europe wanting to punish Germany financially instead of militarily. Would have been much better keeping them from having a navy and air force while allowing their economy to thrive.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 9, 08, 15:21 / #
HatefulBunch397: And you seem like a typical sociopath. Well, that's a compliment coming from our board idiot! HatefulBunch397: I think the US are to blame as well but come on. Our board idiot has spoken!

IronsE11Threads: 2 Posts: 799 Joined: Mar 3, 08	Dec 9, 08, 15:25 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Haty seems just to be another polish big mouth with lots of demands, empty phrases and reproaches...but no viable alternatives! Add to that a lacking of historical understanding and you have your typical mix... She's American, but apart from that you're spot on. HatefulBunch397: I think the US are to blame as well Are Poland to blame as well? I mean they did border Germany. Surely they would have been best placed to launch a land invasion? No?

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Dec 9, 08, 15:25 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Our board idiot has spoken! You just saying that because you know I'm right. Truth hurts. I understand. Are Poland to blame as well? I mean they did border Germany. Surely they would have been best placed to launch a land invasion? No? Blame Poland for the invasion of Poland. Hmm. stuff like this has happened before and was justified after a civil war or something occuring in the country being invaded. Invading Poland over Gdańsk - entirely unjustified.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: Filios1 Dec 9, 08, 15:27 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Add to that a lacking of historical understanding I would like to see statistics. I would bet a months wages that Polish children are more savvy in European history than average European.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 9, 08, 15:29 / #
Filios1: Fak off, BB. Average Pole knows more about his/her own countries history than average European. I only see Amis here...oh and a half Greek...:)

IronsE11Threads: 2 Posts: 799 Joined: Mar 3, 08	Dec 9, 08, 15:30 / #
HatefulBunch397: Truth hurts. Why would the truth hurt? Bratwurst is German! HatefulBunch397: One huge mistake with the treaty was Western Europe wanting to punish Germany financially instead of militarily. Would have been much better keeping them from having a navy and air force while allowing their economy to thrive. Well done love. Yes Versailles was a shambles. Tell us something we don't know. Hateful, you can get theat tiny violin out and play it as long as you like, it won't change the fact that you are an ignorant cretin.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 9, 08, 15:30 / #
Filios1: I would bet a months wages that Polish children are more savvy in European history than average European. I dunno...Poles still believe Kopernikus was a Pole! That they saved Europe countless times, that everybody is out to betray them and that the world owes them something.. :):):)

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: Filios1 Dec 9, 08, 15:31 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Poles still believe Kopernikus You mean Copernicus? By the way, I'd like to notify you all that HatefulBunch is an American, not a Pole. She's a little bit on the ignorant side when it comes to European affairs.

Lir	Dec 9, 08, 15:34 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Poles still believe Kopernikus a German! :):):) ~LOL.......Nope. only Germans think that, not Poles <they have more sense>but Germans still make nice BMW cars, so they have something to be proud of :))) <grin>

IronsE11Threads: 2 Posts: 799 Joined: Mar 3, 08	Dec 9, 08, 15:35 / #
HatefulBunch397: Blame Poland for the invasion of Poland I was actually referring to this: HatefulBunch397: The best course of action to everyone else would have been not allowing the wehrmacht to get as powerful as it became. Do keep up. You are harping on about Britain's responsibility in regards to containing Germany. Surely POland could have done more? Filios1: I would like to see statistics. I would bet a months wages that Polish children are more savvy in European history than average European. Except she's American. I tell you what, I bet the average person with a history degree has a better understanding than the average plastic pole on a forum talking utter rubbish... just a theory of mine.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Edited by: HatefulBunch397 Dec 9, 08, 15:35 / #
IronsE11: Well done love. Yes Versailles was a shambles. Tell us something we don't know. It was a shambles...but that isn't the entire story. ...you can get theat tiny violin out and play it as long as you like, it won't change the fact that you are an ignorant cretin. That sounds like something an American would say :D :D :D :D :D You are harping on about Britain's responsibility in regards to containing Germany. Surely POland could have done more? You have to admit Poland is one country that hasn't got a good history of fighting and winning wars. What could Poland have done?