What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

Piorun:

At that very conference our allies gave away our eastern territories to Stalin just as Hitler had done so previously

IronsE11:

I don't think that military intervention against the Soviet Union late in WW2 was ever a realisatic option. America had the means but not the will, and Britain (even with the will) were in no position to do so.

By April 1, 1945, the Russians were outside Berlin. They built up for two weeks, knowing that Berlin would be heavily contested. The Western Allies planned to drop paratroops to take Berlin, but decided against it. Eisenhower saw no need to suffer casualties taking a city that would be in the Soviet sphere of influence once the war was over.

Babinich:

(again at a great cost to the victors because of monies diverted to the belligerents who started the war as opposed to using that money to help their own.)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 13, 08, 13:27 / #
Babinich: It is always easier to nip a problem in the bud before it metastasizes. Well...most Germans who supported Hitler felt he "nipped the problems". As nobody else wanted to help them... Imagine a referendum for all Germans...on one side stands Hitler promising to right things again, on the other side you, Babinich, telling them....what?

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Dec 13, 08, 19:33 / #
Harry: Says the man who lies about the London parade and leaves out the fact that free Poles were invited. The Poles were unrepresented, along with Yugoslavia and the U.S.S.R. It was a slap in the face, for sure. Britain didn't acknowledge those three nations in the parade, even though Poles fought alongside British.

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Dec 13, 08, 21:59 / #
Bratwurst Boy: on the other side you, Babinich, telling them....what? BB, That is why the Central Powers needed a lesson applied by someone of William Tecumseh Sherman's character. If this was the philosophy of the Entente there would be no WWII.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 13, 08, 23:11 / #
Babinich: BB, That is why the Central Powers needed a lesson applied by someone of William Tecumseh Sherman's character. Do you think you would win this imaginary referendum this way?

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Dec 14, 08, 04:34 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Do you think you would win this imaginary referendum this way? The hindsight in regards to my imagined strategy on prosecuting WWI would place the very idea of a referendum on Hitler to the scrapheap of counter factual history.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 14, 08, 04:39 / #
Babinich: The hindsight in regards to my imagined strategy on prosecuting WWI would place the very idea of a referendum on Hitler to the scrapheap of counter factual history. You are just avoiding a clear answer....The Germans hadn't the blessings of hindsight, neither had the Brits nor anybody else. And when you even with hindsight are not able to be a rival to Hitler's promises in said imaginary referendum how should it had panned out differently??? (I really doubt threatening any "lessons" would do the trick...)

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Dec 14, 08, 04:52 / #
Bratwurst Boy: And when you even with hindsight are not able to be a rival to Hitler's promises in said imaginary referendum how should it had panned out differently??? We're speculating here so while we're at it I'll say that the perfect solution would be for the allies to enforce the Treaty of Versailles: stare down Hitler on rearmament; never sign onto the Anglo-German Naval agreement of 1935 (especially when the Royal Navy had their budget cut through legislation and The Depression.) Bratwurst Boy: (I really doubt threatening any "lessons" would do the trick...) No, the "lesson" applied to the Central Powers in WWI would be very simple: the complete and utter destruction of those powers infrastructure. These actions would destroy any seeds of revenge because the defeat would have been so physically and emotionally enduring..

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 14, 08, 04:54 / #
Babinich: No, the "lesson" applied to the Central Powers in WWI would be very simple: the complete and utter destruction of those powers infrastructure. These actions would destroy any seeds of revenge because the defeat would have been so physically and emotionally enduring.. And for how long? What are your long term plans with Germany? Do you think the grievances just vanish? As I see it your way to peace would not be reconciliation between the peoples but stomping down even more on the Gemans, the biggest, most industrious and developed country in Europe, yes? My guess is it wouldn't had worked...not for long! (Just take the Poles....they were utterly occupied for generations. Did it destroy the seeds for revenge??? Did it erase all grievances and their yearning for independence?)

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Dec 14, 08, 05:00 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Do you think the grievances just vanish? No... Bratwurst Boy: What are your long term plans with Germany? Unfortunately, monies would have to be spent by the victors (taking that money out of play for the allies' own economies; in fact punishing the victors) to help the belligerent(s) to rebuild.

SoftsongThreads: 6 Posts: 588 Joined: Sep 2, 07	Dec 14, 08, 05:09 / #
I remember in history classes hearing how when you too heavily punish an adversary, it sows the seeds for the next war. With Japan, the USA learned from what happened after WWI with Germany, so after WWII, Japan was treated differently. No military activity allowed, we became her protector. Japan became prosperous and is now one of the best allies the USA has ever had. So, I disagree with Babinich's technique of how to successfully settle a war.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 14, 08, 05:30 / #
The Art of War by Sun Tzu was a disappointment for me, but it espoused some useful words of wisdom. I'm glad Softsong has clarified matters somewhat. George Bush jnr once said sth like, 'America and Japan have formed an enduring alliance, we have been great partners for 100 years'. LOL, oops

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Edited by: Piorun Dec 14, 08, 09:54 / #
IronsE11: the fact remains that they were in no position to do anything about it regardless. Why do you insist on moving on to what if debate? Strictly speaking about the facts, were you asked to do anything about it? NO you were not, by this time the circumstances have drastically changed effectively nullifying any military agreement previously signed. The fact remains you signed the document at Yalta and you had no right to do so concerning the points dealing with Eastern Europe without even consulting with the owner or have him represented there and let him fight his own battles with Stalin. That’s not what business partners do, as you have stated before “You have to be in possession of something in order to give it away.” Doing something to someone behind someone’s back is not only a cowardly act but also an act of betrayal. You wanted to have it both ways; keep Stalin happy and Polish Government in Exile happy so you did and now when it is pointed out to you, you try to change the debate “we could not do anything about it”. YES you could, simply do not take your pen out and sign off on something that does not concern you or belong to you. This is what any business partner would have done; tell Stalin this is none of my business you negotiate with Polish Government in Exile yourself. But no, you have to skew the debate or give cheap excuses like “we were in no position”, “what could have we done more”. Yes it’s an eyesore for you I know, the sooner you acknowledge this fact the better for all of us. We can simply move on and forget about it. IronsE11: Poland was f*cked from the moment it was carved up between Hitler and Stalin. I couldn’t agree with you more, and here we can start fun debates; what would have happened if this or this was the case?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 05:15 / #
Filios had a point when he said that talking to Russia may have yielded better results. Still, liaising with a madman is always fraught with pitfalls.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 09:15 / #
http://www.polishsquadronsremembered.com/Victory_parade.html, a trait of many Poles is to feel hard done by, in Scotland too I might add. However, some of the claims laid out by the author of the article square with what I have read. Indeed, if there was an invitation proferred to anybody other than 303 squadron, I'm not aware of it. Harry, have you read any of the transcripts of Teheran or Yalta? I think the guy outlines other sources in the article above. In the Ascherson book I have, it is said that Churchill blew up and reeled off insults against the Poles. Hardly the actions of a decent and grateful man. I know from my grandad's tales that there was a cordial relationship between many Glaswegians and Poles who came to serve in WWII. He speaks well of them in his recollections. He would have been in his late teens at the time so still forming impressions. They were tenacious fighters and loyal to the cause, sth us Scots value. http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=142024, a tribute to the good things they did for us. Respect. On a more light-hearted note, check out rhino, the girl in the thread above :) :). Yes, Aniołku, I still love you the most tho ;)

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Dec 14, 08, 05:31 / #
Softsong: I remember in history classes hearing how when you too heavily punish an adversary, it sows the seeds for the next war. You mean like Versailles? This treaty was screwed up from the beginning; sow the seeds of economic disaster while allowing the Germans to build on the thought of betrayal. WWI psychologically damaged the wrong parties; the French and the British suffered long term effects from their participation in WWI while the seeds of revenge were sown in Germany. The roles should have been reversed; the Central Powers should have been the ones with the long term effects (loss of the will to fight) while the Allies' should have been the ones to rebuild and repair. (again at a great cost to the victors because of monies diverted to the belligerents who started the war as opposed to using that money to help their own.)

IronsE11Threads: 2 Posts: 799 Joined: Mar 3, 08	Edited by: IronsE11 Dec 14, 08, 06:10 / #
Piorun: At that very conference our allies gave away our eastern territories to Stalin just as Hitler had done so previously You have to be in possession of something in order to give it away. Who occupied these territories at the time of Yalta? What could Britain or the US have feasibly done, to make Stalin relinquish Poland? Whatever the arguments on this thread, this is one point that (as far as I can see) has never been answered, by those who accuse Britain and the US of 'selling out' Poland. Stalin got to Berlin before his Allies, and Poland was part of his prize. You can argue all day long whether Churchill and FDR gave Polish freedom due consideration, but the fact remains that they were in no position to do anything about it regardless. IronsE11: I don't think that military intervention against the Soviet Union late in WW2 was ever a realisatic option. America had the means but not the will, and Britain (even with the will) were in no position to do so. By April 1, 1945, the Russians were outside Berlin. They built up for two weeks, knowing that Berlin would be heavily contested. The Western Allies planned to drop paratroops to take Berlin, but decided against it. Eisenhower saw no need to suffer casualties taking a city that would be in the Soviet sphere of influence once the war was over. If the Americans weren't prepared to suffer casualties taking Berlin, they most certainly weren't prepared to suffer them wrestling Poland from Stalin. Unfortunately, Poland was f*cked from the moment it was carved up between Hitler and Stalin. Babinich: (again at a great cost to the victors because of monies diverted to the belligerents who started the war as opposed to using that money to help their own.) Germany paid reparations to Britain and France, who in turn paid back their war loans to the US, who in turn lent money to Germany to rebuild. I wonder who the winners were here?

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Dec 15, 08, 04:16 / #
HatefulBunch397: The Poles were unrepresented, along with Yugoslavia and the U.S.S.R. It was a slap in the face, for sure. Britain didn't acknowledge those three nations in the parade, even though Poles fought alongside British. Please have an opinion that you can back up. This one has been shown to be crap.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Dec 15, 08, 08:37 / #
HatefulBunch397: The Poles were unrepresented, along with Yugoslavia and the U.S.S.R. It was a slap in the face, for sure. Britain didn't acknowledge those three nations in the parade, even though Poles fought alongside British. For the three thousandth time: Poles were invited to the London parade, both representatives of the free Poles and the official government of Poland. Neither bothered to show up.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Dec 15, 08, 08:52 / #
Harry: For the three thousandth time: Poles were invited to the London parade, both representatives of the free Poles and the official government of Poland. Neither bothered to show up. Poland was not represented in the parade. Neither was the U.S.S.R. Tito wasn't either. Poland was not represented in that parade and that is a fact and if you do not believe me, you, sir, can google it.

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Dec 15, 08, 09:06 / #
HatefulBunch397: Poland was not represented in the parade. Neither was the U.S.S.R. Tito wasn't either. Poland was not represented in that parade and that is a fact and if you do not believe me, you, sir, can google it. You've got the memory and attention span of a goldfish with Alzheimers.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 15, 08, 09:53 / #
Piorun: YES you could, simply do not take your pen out and sign off on something that does not concern you or belong to you. Great points Piorun, One issue that seems to be avoided is the fact that without US backing Stalin was not this big threat. One thing I'll give "Stalin", he was a master at manipulation. Seanus: Filios had a point when he said that talking to Russia may have yielded better results Talking to Russia when?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 09:57 / #
Eh, before the war started of course. Placating the Russians may have been somewhat easier than pacifying the hellbent Hitler. Again, conjectural speculation.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Dec 15, 08, 12:41 / #
Kilkline: HatefulBunch397: Poland was not represented in the parade. Neither was the U.S.S.R. Tito wasn't either. Poland was not represented in that parade and that is a fact and if you do not believe me, you, sir, can google it. You've got the memory and attention span of a goldfish with Alzheimers. No, she's just a pathetically bad liar.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 15, 08, 13:00 / #
Harry: pathetically bad liar. Harry, May I suggest the usage of "she see's this history different".

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Dec 15, 08, 13:52 / #
Seanus: Placating the Russians may have been somewhat easier than pacifying the hellbent Hitler. You mean placating the Georgian don't you???

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 13:54 / #
Yes, sorry! I stand corrected.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Dec 15, 08, 14:40 / #
Harry: No, she's just a pathetically bad liar. You mean google is a pathetically bad liar? Google is where I got the info.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 14:41 / #
Google is not the definitive authority but there are specialist websites that can settle the matter.

HatefulBunch397Threads: - Posts: 1,018 Joined: Nov 5, 08	Dec 15, 08, 14:52 / #
Seanus: Google is not the definitive authority but there are specialist websites that can settle the matter. Well, regardless of the reason, Britain's fourth leading ally, Poland, wasn't represented in the parade.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Dec 15, 08, 15:25 / #
Churchill was too busy basking in glory. The Poles got a raw deal here.