What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?

z_darius:

First of all that clown Chamberlain should have not blackmailed Poland into abandoning mobilization efforts when it was clear the war was inevitable. They should have been realistic in their promises (that's what pacts are in essence), or they should have worked towards making their military actually be fit for war. After all they saw what happened to Czekoslovakia, and British military force in Europe was comparable to the Czekoslovakian.

Years before, Britain should have stuck to the treaties and limitations imposed on Germany.

When Hitler bombed Polish cities, towns and villages indiscriminately, the British and the French could have done the same, but concentrating on German military and industrial installations. Unfortunately, there was no real leadership in the UK at the time, and so Britain lost the first phase of WW2 miserably, and it could be argued that through failed politiking in the years and months leading to the war, and through their military inaction, the British government helped Hitler extend the war and its scale to what is now history.

When Brits laugh at Poles for Spetember/October 1939, it is them who deserve the laughs. The British and the French, the two "superpowers" were powerless anachronisms wrapped in pretty flags and great speeches, while Poland was the only country where Germans encountered any resistance to speak of.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Dec 1, 08, 10:06 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Best example, the Nord-Stream-Pipeline! :) Poland was invited to take part....they would have gotten independent access to the pipeline with branches to polish territory (the offer still stands as far as I know). Poland is not the only country or organization opposing the pipeline. But you knew that, didn't you? Harry: As a good Pole, you'll no doubt know the bible. I direct you to Luke 6:42 " Thou hypocrite, cast out first the beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out the mote that is in thy brother's eye." Who gives a sshit about the bible? You? Don't give me ancient fables, boy. You like them? Then live by them.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 10:14 / #
z_darius: Poland is not the only country or organization opposing the pipeline. But you knew that, didn't you? Well...I see a difference between real environmental concerns and using it for political bitching and powergames.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:24 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Well...I see a difference between real environmental concerns and using it for political bitching and powergames. Sweden's main concern is not environmental at all. Americans also oppose the line, and I doubt they do it for the love of clean waters and fresh air.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:28 / #
z_darius: Who gives a sshit about the bible? You? Don't give me ancient fables, boy. You like them? Then live by them. Now I'm confused. Aren't I (according to you) supposed to be Jewish? So why would I give a sh!t about the bible. You however are a Pole and thus from the nation which considered electing Jesus Christ as king of Poland and which wants God and "Christian values" mentioned in the EU constitution. Yours is the nation which places anicent fables at the heart of public policy.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 10:31 / #
z_darius: Sweden's main concern is not environmental at all. Americans also oppose the line, and I doubt they do it for the love of clean waters and fresh air. Well...the american opinion doesn't count for much in my opinion. Their foreign policy in the last years was rather confrontational and agressive, not to mention that they want to weaken the EU to stay the main political power player. That they don't like to much cooperation between Russia and the EU fits well into their world view. US hawks want to isolate Russia and to expand the Nato to the russian borders, not to mention supporting crazies like Saakashvili to disturb relationships. To bad that the Poles agreed to be their pawns....they will get the same as always for being at the frontline, used for somebody elses plans - nothing! (Start your brains Poles!)

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:37 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Well...the american opinion doesn't count for much in my opinion. Their foreign policy in the last years was rather confrontational and agressive, not to mention that they want to weaken the EU to stay the main political power player. How would not installing the pipe under the Baltic Sea weaken EU? How would dependence on Russian gas and oil would make it stronger? Bratwurst Boy: To bad that the Poles agreed to be their pawns....they will get the same as always for being at the frontline - nothing! Actually, Poland did quite a bit. From Germans too. Weren't you the one who complained about it a number of times? Now, didn't Germans get anything for being American bitches after WW2? This is a funny issue though. If Poles do something for nothing then they are declared fools. If they do something for a handsome return then they are called greedy bastards. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Harry: Harry Tired of you unproductive hatred, and actually ashamed that yet again you managed to drag me into what you are best at - mud fights suitable for kindergarten level.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 10:44 / #
z_darius: How would not installing the pipe under the Baltic Sea weaken EU? How would dependence on Russian gas and oil would make it stronger? Don't play daft here....they give a sh*it about the pipeline! It's a matter of cooperation between Europe and Russia and the US/Poland feeling left out. A pure power game! It could be something else entirely and the bitching would be the same... z_darius: Actually, Poland did quite a bit. From Germans too. Weren't you the one who complained about it a number of times? That's why I also said Poles should stop whining...they got some good rewards in the end. Now always running around and making today's policy with a chip on their shoulder/seeking revenge for old grievances won't help them one bit... z_darius: Now, didn't Germans get anything for being American bitches after WW2? Well...I think it could have been worse....

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:50 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Don't play daft here....they give a shit about the pipeline! That doesn't answer the question. Bratwurst Boy: they got some good rewards in the end. I'm lost. Didn't you just write they will get the same as always for being at the frontline - nothing!* Bratwurst Boy: Well...I think it could have been worse... Same with Poland.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:52 / #
Bratwurst Boy: But noooooo....making a political stunk...calling it a Molotov-Ribbentrop-Pakt....THAT is so not clever! If Germany were to look at the reason Russia wants to spead more money, risk the enviorment for the pipeline? Germany could join with Poland as a united front then the EU could not be broken apart in this manner. All this does is buy Russia into the EU at the price of unity the EU. Germany sold out to the highest bidder and the price is a losing a solid EU.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 10:54 / #
z_darius: That doesn't answer the question. URL However, European Comission Energy comissioner office confirms the commitment of the Union to building the pipeline, stating the "EU continues to strongly support the Nord Stream pipeline as an additional source of gas supplies from Russia".[56] z_darius: Same with Poland. Really? Tell that to the Poles... z_darius: I'm lost. Didn't you just write they will get the same as always for being at the frontline - nothing! Well....they got it from the Soviets, their declared enemy not their allies!

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:14 / #
Harry: Rough translation: you have had enough of being made to look stupid by having your lies exposed with facts that you can not argue with. Strick that and look carefully at what you are saying. Harry I feel there may be a medication for your issues. First step is to understand you sound like a mixed up, angry, anti Polish fool that cannot read facts. Please stop spitting lies and trying to get others to hate the way you do.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:58 / #
celinski: Please stop spitting lies and trying to get others to hate the way you do. As I've said before Carol: quote a single lie I've told here. I've been quite happy to point out your lies about Polish concentration camps and British support for Poland during the war.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 1, 08, 12:19 / #
Kilkline: There was no promise by either country to take military action against an aggressor in the aid of the other. Both had aggreed that they would cover Poland if Germany attacked. France had a longer history and therefore they had 1921 aggreement already and just updated it. Kilkline: the terms that Poland would have followed. Even after Poland knew they were betrayed they continued to fight for the very allies that they knew were betraying them. This to me says alot. From Britian; In 1939 Britain and France signed a series of military agreements with Poland that contained very specific promises. The leaders of Poland understood very clearly that they had no chance against Germany alone. "If Germany attacks Poland His Majesty's Government in the United Kingdom will at once come to the help of Poland."[3] And from France; These talks resulted in the Franco-Polish Military Convention which, according to historian Richard Watt, stated that "on the outbreak of war between Germany and Poland, the French would immediately undertake air action against Germany. It was also agreed that on the third day of French mobilization its army would launch a diversionary offensive into German territory, which would be followed by a major military offensive of the full French army to take place no later than fifteen days after mobilization."[8] URL

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Edited by: Bzibzioh Dec 1, 08, 15:17 / #
Kilkline: The threads on here go along the lines of 'why didnt Britain do more for us when we did so much for them?' That doesnt seem as though its Britain thats doing the whinging or making the unreasonable retrospective demands. We are not whining about why Britain didn't do more for us as we know perfectly well that they did nothing. Period. We helped them as much as we could and are satisfied with Churchill praise. Victory parade in London would have been nice acknowledgment too but we can survive without. Harry's position though that we owe Britain some big thank you for just declaring war is just silly. Harry: Bombs were dropped before leaflets. Oh, do explain that. Maybe I'll learn something more after all. Kilkline: murder a Bavarian infant. I think some Austrians may disagree

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Dec 1, 08, 10:58 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Really? Tell that to the Poles... They want the shield, let them have it. Why would you, as a German, be bothered? Do you really think that between the two evils Russians are the better option? Bratwurst Boy: Well....they got it from the Soviets, their declared enemy not their allies! Factual. not declared.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 11:03 / #
celinski: If Germany were to look at the reason Russia wants to spead more money, risk the enviorment for the pipeline? Germany could join with Poland as a united front then the EU could not be broken apart in this manner. All this does is buy Russia into the EU at the price of unity the EU. Germany sold out to the highest bidder and the price is a losing a solid EU. We here in Europe (especially Germany) have not much means to get energy but to buy it from foreigners. The need and demand is growing, not to mention that newcomers like China will want more and more too...energy in any form will become a bone of contention in the coming decades. Now working to secure your sources and also broaden your possibilites while we still can is a smart move. Environmental concerns must be talked about and recognized and I'm sure they will be cleared up. Stop using these arguments when you in truth mean something else! If Poland is sitting on riches they could send over they should tell us soon! Russia is one of the biggest energy supplier and frankly we need them... Poland should join Germany and the EU or they should offer another energy source instead. But they have nothing else to offer....it isn't as if they live by air - they are taking russian energy quite without any problems too!

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Edited by: Harry Dec 1, 08, 11:05 / #
z_darius: Tired of you unproductive hatred, and actually ashamed that yet again you managed to drag me into what you are best at - mud fights suitable for kindergarten level. Rough translation: you have had enough of being made to look stupid by having your lies exposed with facts that you can not argue with.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:12 / #
z_darius: They want the shield, let them have it. Why would you, as a German, be bothered? Do you really think that between the two evils Russians are the better option? Well...I just see it as a perfect example of polish stupidity again, repeating what happend seemingly all over polish history again. They let themselves be used for american purposes, but have to bear the brunt of the neighbours agression and displeasure. The US is far away, happy to have a pawn obeying their whims but Poland? Not only bad relationships with Russia but suspiciously and wary treated by many Europeans who know exactly what's happening - not a good way to secure Poland in the EU, playing the squabbler, the divider, the american foot in the EU door.. Just imagine Cuba would have let installed russian military hardware on their territory...the US was so coool about it, weren't they!

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Dec 1, 08, 11:18 / #
Bratwurst Boy: If Poland is sitting on riches they could send over they should tell us soon! Russia is one of the biggest energy supplier and frankly we need them... Poland should join Germany and the EU or they should offer another energy source instead. But they have nothing else to offer....it isn't as if they live by air - they are taking russian energy quite without any problems too! BBoy, Poland has been blackmailed by the Russians a number of times after it joined EU and then NATO. It took a lot of political wrangling and convincing before EU politicians recognized that Poland indeed had reasons to complain in various areas of trade between Poland and Russia. To you it's unsubstantiated whining, to Poles, and to those in EU who care to look at things closely, it is Poland's legitimate concern. I understand Germany needs energy supplies. All EU countries do. The problem is with bending over, mostly by the Germans lacking vision. What will Germany do in 50 years when oil and gas are gone? And if the Russians talk about embargo, well... let them sell their oil elsewhere. We'll see how they'll do. Now is a good time too. Bratwurst Boy: Well...I just see it as a perfect example of polish stupidity again, repeating what happend seemingly all over polish history again. They let themselves be used for american purposes, but have to bear the brunt of the neighbours agression and displeasure. Poland is a small and militarily weak country. What do you suggest? Kiss Russian butt? That's been tried and it didn't work too well. Stupidity would be doing the same thing again and expecting different results. That, it seems, was what Germans did having lost WW1 - they started WW2. Now, how stupid was that?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:19 / #
z_darius: What will Germany do in 50 years when oil and gas are gone? I REALLY pray to my gods that till then (the sooner the better) we found a viable alternative....really I do!!!

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:26 / #
Bratwurst Boy: we found a viable alternative....really I do!!! is it worth the cost? Bratwurst Boy: If Poland is sitting on riches they could send over they should tell us soon! Maybe Poland would if they were not held captive until 1989. In time Poland must come up with alternate energy. Just think if Germany was not alone paying for Holocaust and Russia had to compensate for their part how much better off Germany would be.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 1, 08, 11:40 / #
z_darius: That, it seems, was what Germans did having lost WW1 - they started WW2. Now, how stupid was that? WWII was a continuation of WWI with a rest of arms inbetween. celinski: Maybe Poland would if they were not held captive until 1989. They actually HAVE riches to supply Germany and western Europe???

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Dec 1, 08, 11:45 / #
z_darius: First of all that clown Chamberlain should have not blackmailed Poland into abandoning mobilization efforts when it was clear the war was inevitable. They should have been realistic in their promises (that's what pacts are in essence), or they should have worked towards making their military actually be fit for war. After all they saw what happened to Czekoslovakia, and British military force in Europe was comparable to the Czekoslovakian. Years before, Britain should have stuck to the treaties and limitations imposed on Germany. When Hitler bombed Polish cities, towns and villages indiscriminately, the British and the French could have done the same, but concentrating on German military and industrial installations. Unfortunately, there was no real leadership in the UK at the time, and so Britain lost the first phase of WW2 miserably, and it could be argued that through failed politiking in the years and months leading to the war, and through their military inaction, the British government helped Hitler extend the war and its scale to what is now history. When Brits laugh at Poles for Spetember/October 1939, it is them who deserve the laughs. The British and the French, the two "superpowers" were powerless anachronisms wrapped in pretty flags and great speeches, while Poland was the only country where Germans encountered any resistance to speak of. Hindsights a beautiful thing. The policy of pacification was understandable given that WW1 was a fresh memory. A whole generation wiped out, a local skirmish that became a world war because of alliances and treaties. Because of restored independence maybe Poles have positive memories of WW1, Brits most certainly didnt as we paid a high price for continental belligerence. Also the Anglo-Polish Mutual Assistance Agreement is vague as to what type of assistance would be given. There was no promise by either country to take military action against an aggressor in the aid of the other. These were the terms that Poland agreed to and no doubt if the table were turned, the terms that Poland would have followed.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Dec 1, 08, 12:53 / #
Harry: I've been quite happy to point out your lies about Polish concentration camps But you failed to write they were run by Jews. Isn't how you conveniently offer half truths, and thus end up telling lies. On the same note, when some Polish citizen of Jewish extraction achieves something positive of note then he is a Jew. But when a Polish Jew runs a concentration camp then he is a Pole. That sort of twisting is what makes you a liar and a dishonest scribe not worth no more than a spit.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Dec 1, 08, 15:55 / #
Bratwurst Boy: They should start working their brains instead being always so eager to fight (and being proud of it). Especially their position in Europe between two power houses demands more cleverness and smart decisions than Poles showed in their history! Oh, really? Considering that for centuries we were between two over ambitious and hungry for our territory morons we did pretty well after all. Surviving as a nation with our own identity, language, culture and independence is a big deal. And you, crautie, be better careful with criticizing Poland. I can always ask you which war you ever won with all your superiority in everything.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Dec 1, 08, 16:12 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Why not kill him as a baby in his crib? Hindsight is a great thing, isn't it? No... I would never be able to kill a baby, no matter if he turned into a monster. I would want a full grown, adult Hitler, and then, I would kill him with glee.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Dec 1, 08, 16:32 / #
check out ww2 behind closed doors on bbc i player dated today on bbc2. it focuses on the soviets trying to cover up the katyn massacre,the warsaw uprising and how basically poland was crapped on and lied to.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Dec 1, 08, 16:55 / #
If we look on Polish poit of veiw The best solution to reduce losts in popultion was aliance with Soviets all in all we were under their occupation after 1945 ... If soviets have had conquered europe (France, Spain ect) This system would colapse because it was unefficent. Poland would losse less people and infrastructure would had been in much better condition. After all Soviets had done everything they wanted after WWII.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Dec 1, 08, 16:58 / #
Prince: If soviets conquered europe (France, Spain ect) This system would colapse because it was unefficent And tell me Łukasz... You think that Poles would let the Soviet army just march right on through Poland towards France and Spain? What about Germany? I for one, would not trust the Soviets in such a pact. A defensive alliance, yes, but not one in which Russia uses Poland as a launching pad for assaults to the west.

PrinceThreads: 26 Posts: 826 Joined: Nov 4, 08	Edited by: Prince Dec 1, 08, 17:01 / #
Filios1: You think that Poles would let the Soviet army just march right on through Poland towards France and Spain? What about Germany? I for one, would not trust the Soviets in such a pact. A defensive alliance, yes, but not one in which Russia uses Poland as a launching pad for assaults to the west. Germany would had been conquered as well. I am thinking only about Polish interests seing what have happened in Poland durring WWII and after WWII. We would had losse much less Polish people there would be no Hitler in Poland only Stalins troops which we had opportunity to see in 1945. If we had been allied with Soviets this ideaological occupation would had been much softer. From perspective of Polish interests it was the best solution (in 1939).