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What did Poland get out of the wars and struggles for others?


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BzibziohThreads: 6
Posts: 3,648
Joined: Oct 15, 08
Edited by: Bzibzioh   Dec 2, 08, 18:19 /  #
Kilkline:
Its seems that many Poles on here dont see the war as anything other than a battle for Polish soveriegnty

That would be really fantastic if it were the truth.

One question though: Allies won, didn't they? So how come Poland end up being not sovereign at all? What went wrong? Just wondering ...

Harry:
You need to remember that many Poles think that Copernicus was completely wrong. Copernicus thought that the earth goes round the sun. In reality both the earth and the sun (and the rest of the universe) revolve around Poland....


Hmmm…. and you are saying it isn't? LOL

It’s just another example of this one way system displayed by some Englishmen - they can joke about other nations, look down on them, insult them, etc. but are not ready to bear with the same from the the foreigners…. criticism seems to be too much already.

Britons have it in their nature to patronize and intimidate others, even (if not mainly) through their jokes. Yes, it is a generalization but proved by behaviour of so many people that it is hard to totally dismiss it, I’m afraid.

HarryThreads: 59
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Joined: May 2, 07
Edited by: Harry   Dec 3, 08, 04:13 /  #
Bzibzioh:

You clearly need to stop being ridicules on top of ridicules. RAF did nothing until 1940. Unless you did some secret bombing in September 1939 nobody knows about.

I do wish you would stop with your lies. The RAF raids of September 4 1939 against Wilhemshaven are as secret as they were successful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelmshaven

But then why should we be surprised to see Poles lying about WWII and what the British did and did not do?


Ozi Dan:

The Government in Exile received an invite at the eleventh hour when it was apparent the commo govt wouldnt attend. It was, naturally, politely declined.

And your source for this is what? All the sources I’ve read and quoted from agree that the official government was invited first and after uproar caused by not inviting free Poles, representatives of the free Poles were invited. Until the day of the parade nobody knew for sure that the official government wasn’t sending anybody.


Ozi Dan:
What self respecting invitee would accept a second thought last minute invite? One can only speculate as to the value GB/the allies placed on Poland's contributions to the war effort in these circumstances.

Well, let’s see, how many other free forces were invited? Oh yes, none were.
And what self respecting invitee would attend? Far better to refuse the invite and then spend the next 60+ years lying about not being invited.

Ozi Dan:
I recall you mentioning some Poles did attend. That was in their capacity as integrated member of the GB armed forces.

That context takes the gloss of your spin, doesn't it.

You are mistaking me with somebody else.
And no it doesn’t take any ‘gloss’ off what I’m saying. My point is that the oft told tale about Poles not being invited to the London parade is a lie.

Ozi Dan:
It's strange how your ilk deign to argue the finer points of an invitation if it gives the opportunity to try to cast a bad light on Poland.

Read your own thread mate. A Pole started the discussion of the parade and did so in an attempt to put the British in a bad light. I merely pointed out that he is lying. I’m not making any fine points (unlike a certain somebody who attempts to using the alleged timing of invitation as justification for it being refused), I’m simply stating that both free Poles and the official government of Poland were invited to the parade and neither bothered to turn up.

Ozi Dan:
In my opinion, some of the facts you have given have been bare facts, denied of context.

Facts are fact. Both free and not-so-free Poles were invited to the London parade. The RAF dropped bombs before it dropped leaflets. The British tried to support the Warsaw Uprising but the Americans considered such support not “advantageous for the long-term prospects” of the war. Some Poles were and some are anti-semitic. These are facts. Of course they are facts that some Poles would prefer not to be facts but they are still facts.

Ozi Dan:
Keep it coming though - I enjoy the sport.

Remind me, when was the hunting of Aborigines for sport made illegal in your fine nation?

BTW: "Poms and sporting prowess". is not two words that don't go together, it is three words. Nice counting skills there mate. Oh, and congratulations to you Ozzies for overtaking the Septics and becoming the fattest nation on the planet.
KilklineThreads: 3
Posts: 894
Joined: Jul 23, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 06:03 /  #
Ozi Dan:

"Poms and sporting prowess".


Better than the Aussies if you look at the Olympics, and football, and the last 2 Rugby World Cups. And we're not a nation that even sees sport as our only means of national pride, unlike some cultural wastelands that I could mention.


It does seem however that Harry is being attacked for daring to question the whole mythology that some Poles have chosen to surround themselves with. He's raised good points that no one has really been able to counter without either getting insulting or giving some pretty woolly answers.
The situation is reminiscent of the accusations that many on here have leveled against Jews e.g. falsely claiming a unique victim status, crying about how other nations should have dropped everything and saved them, a failure to accept that maybe other nations had other priorities at the time.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07
Edited by: celinski   Dec 3, 08, 06:12 /  #
Harry:

. The British tried to support the Warsaw Uprising but the Americans considered such support not “advantageous for the long-term prospects” of the war. Some Poles were and some are anti-semitic. These are facts.


Can you tell me what the British tried during the "Warsaw Uprising"? Listen to the voices of the ones that were there.

This one speaks of who was in the parade, "Moscow Poles".
KilklineThreads: 3
Posts: 894
Joined: Jul 23, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 08:38 /  #
The title of this thread should have the word Poland replaced with Britain. I think it would then be at least minimally accurate.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 08:44 /  #
Kilkline:

The title of this thread should have the word Poland replaced with Britain


At least Britain was not taken over. Britain still had independence. Is this not what all were fighting for?
IronsE11Threads: 2
Posts: 799
Joined: Mar 3, 08
  Dec 3, 08, 08:46 /  #
Kilkline:

falsely claiming a unique victim status, crying about how other nations should have dropped everything and saved them, a failure to accept that maybe other nations had other priorities at the time.


Nail on head.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 08:53 /  #
IronsE11:

Nail on head


We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".


IronsE11Threads: 2
Posts: 799
Joined: Mar 3, 08
  Dec 3, 08, 09:05 /  #
celinski:

We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".


Very funny. I won't take the bait this time but keep trying.
VaFunkooloThreads: 7
Posts: 823
Joined: Mar 24, 08
  Dec 3, 08, 09:18 /  #
Bzibzioh:
It’s just another example of this one way system displayed by some Englishmen - they can joke about other nations, look down on them, insult them, etc. but are not ready to bear with the same from the the foreigners…. criticism seems to be too much already.


Have you heard of Hells Kitchen?

Well imagine the UK as Gordon Ramsey who is in the kitchen with all these annoying insignificant little fuks who think they know what theyre doing but actually havent got a fukin clue.

Gordon gets pretty tired of telling them where they are going wrong. They might get there eventually, but in the meantime, as Gordon shows us, you have to tell them just what incompetent little fuks they are in order to slap them in to shape

Poland is one of those annoying insignificant little fuks. One that still thinks it knows best.

Fukin twats. As Gordon would say
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:23 /  #
celinski:
Can you tell me what the British tried during the "Warsaw Uprising"?

Just click the link I've provided in this thread which takes you to the website of the Museum of the Warsaw Uprising. There you can find information about the British attempts to supply the Uprising.

celinski:

We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".

When did Poland ever fight to save Britain before Britain fought to protect Polish independence?
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:28 /  #
Harry:

When did Poland ever fight to save Britain before Britain fought to protect Polish independence?


Now how's this for a silly question? Do you think Polish were fighting and dying for ha ha's. Please give credit where credit is due.
time meansThreads: 9
Posts: 2,309
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Pictures: 1
  Dec 3, 08, 09:31 /  #
Ozi Dan:

Poms and sporting prowess". Where do I stop.

Ozi Dan:
i would back england v australia at football anyday,the last two rugby world cups and what about the olympics?
Then you will no doubt be aware of the Polish contribution.

absolutely-along with lots of other nations.
Ozi Dan:

"Aussies and warm beer

this my friend is were you are wrong. lager as you call beer is served cold. beer as in ale is not.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Dec 3, 08, 09:33 /  #
celinski:

Polish pilots have destroyed 12% Luftwaffe planes. On every one shot down Polish plane, Poles shot down six German planes (6:1), for example British pilots had (3:1).


Actually I would like to see the evidence for that because I frankly don't believe that.

12 percent of which Luftwaffe planes? In which time frame? When??? Where???
I doubt the quotes...
As far as I know the Luftwaffe had always a good quota during the war, even till near the end...but never one as high as much 1:6, that's ridiculous!!!
IronsE11Threads: 2
Posts: 799
Joined: Mar 3, 08
Edited by: IronsE11   Dec 3, 08, 09:35 /  #
celinski:

Polish pilots have destroyed 12% Luftwaffe planes. On every one shot down Polish plane, Poles shot down six German planes (6:1), for example British pilots had (3:1).


Very impressive! It's just a shame you couldn't defend your own borders. You're worse than the French.

Bratwurst Boy:

Actually I would like to see the evidence for that because I frankly don't believe that.


The level of English is probably a good indication of the quality of the source.

celinski:

When Germans have heard for first time Polish conversation in air they have taken it for a very funny English joke.

VaFunkooloThreads: 7
Posts: 823
Joined: Mar 24, 08
  Dec 3, 08, 09:36 /  #
celinski:
Now how's this for a silly question? Do you think Polish were fighting and dying for ha ha's. Please give credit where credit is due.


Carol if you actually bothered to read questions and then give an appropriate answer, people might have a little more respect for you
KilklineThreads: 3
Posts: 894
Joined: Jul 23, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:43 /  #
celinski:

We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland.


Until you can come to an understanding of how childish and selfish that sounds you will never have any 'closure' on this matter.

Poland never went to war for Britain, Britain did go to war for Poland however. Maybe we didnt go to war in the style and manner which suited Poland but hey, we had a couple of other things on our plate at the time. We won in the end, the Nazis were defeated and 'most' of Europe was free again. Poland was in the 'not so free' bit but at least you werent all being rounded up and lead to gas chambers or being shot en masse in the streets or being forced to live on starvation rations as you were pre-1946.
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:43 /  #
celinski:

Polish pilots fought in the Battle of Britain, where the Polish 303 Fighter Squadron achieved the highest number of kills of any Allied squadron.
....
The 303 Squadron, named after the Polish-American hero, General Tadeusz Kościuszko, achieved the highest number of kills (126) of all fighter squadrons engaged in the Battle of Britain, even though it only joined the combat on August 30, 1940: these 5% of pilots were responsible for a phenomenal 12% of total victories in the Battle.

They did not achieve 126 kills. That is what they claimed. Even Polish historians now say that the true number of kills was actually less than half the claimed number. The number of total verified kills was 44. Which makes 303 the 4th best squadron (although it was the best squadron which flew Hurricanes).
Funny how your article doesn't mention that the top pilot in 303 was Josef František. Not a Polish name but then he wasn't Polish.

celinski:

Now how's this for a silly question? Do you think Polish were fighting and dying for ha ha's. Please give credit where credit is due.

I think that they were fighting for Poland.
However, you claimed that Poland fought for Britain before Britain fought for Poland. I asked you to tell me when Poland fought for Britain before 3 September 1939. When was it?
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:47 /  #
VaFunkoolo:

if you actually bothered to read questions


Harry:

When did Poland ever fight to save Britain before Britain fought to protect Polish independence?

[
Question being? I gave you many examples of Polish fighting for others. Do you need a few more?

Bratwurst Boy:

Actually I would like to see the evidence for that because I frankly don't believe that.


I will write to the onme that posted and get the info for you.
VaFunkooloThreads: 7
Posts: 823
Joined: Mar 24, 08
  Dec 3, 08, 09:55 /  #
celinski:
Question being? I gave you many examples of Polish fighting for others. Do you need a few more?


You really are a joke Carol
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 09:57 /  #
Harry:

you claimed that Poland fought for Britain before Britain fought for Poland. I asked you to tell me when Poland fought for Britain before 3 September 1939. When was it?


Can you show me this quote? Prior to 3 Sept. 1939, why would Poland be fighting? Maybe you are confusing this with 1920 when Polish saved Europe from Soviets and gainned her independence. :)
IronsE11Threads: 2
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  Dec 3, 08, 09:57 /  #
celinski:

Question being? I gave you many examples of Polish fighting for others. Do you need a few more?


He was a great historian was that youtube. Anyway, I believe the question was:

Harry:

you claimed that Poland fought for Britain before Britain fought for Poland. I asked you to tell me when Poland fought for Britain before 3 September 1939. When was it?


Please answer.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
Edited by: celinski   Dec 3, 08, 09:59 /  #
IronsE11:

Please answer.


IronsE11:

you claimed that Poland fought for Britain before Britain fought for Poland. I asked you to tell me when Poland fought for Britain before 3 September 1939. When was it?


Show me where I made this claim?

Kilkline:

Poland never went to war for Britain, Britain did go to war for Poland however. Maybe we didnt go to war in the style and manner which suited Poland but hey, we had a couple of other things on our plate at the time. We won in the end, the Nazis were defeated and 'most' of Europe was free again. Poland was in the 'not so free' bit but at least you werent all being rounded up and lead to gas chambers or being shot en masse in the streets or being forced to live on starvation rations as you were pre-1946.


If Poland never went to war for Britain then who was that Polish beside you?

What did you have on your plate that would be more important than keeping your word to the ones you told, "we'll be there"?

I guess you never saw the death toll on Non Jewish? Yes we were being killed and lived in inhumane conditions. Some felt a gas chamber would have been more humane that freezing, starving, slaving and watching each other die a slow death. In the end losing our country that we fought to save.

Non Communist continued to live under the conditions you decribe. Food in "Stalin's Communist Poland" was for the ones that were Moscow Poles.
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
Edited by: Harry   Dec 3, 08, 10:00 /  #
celinski:

Question being? I gave you many examples of Polish fighting for others. Do you need a few more?

You haven't given a single example of Poland fighting for Britain before 3 September 1939. You have only given examples of Poles fighting after that date (and even then fighting against the nation which occupied their state).

You said that
celinski:
We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you.
So now tell me when Poland dropped eveything and helped save Britain before Britain declared war on Germany.


celinski:
Bratwurst Boy:
Actually I would like to see the evidence for that because I frankly don't believe that.


I will write to the onme that posted and get the info for you.

Alternatively you can just go here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/303_squadron
and read this:
Withdrawn from battle for a rest on the 11 October, the squadron had claimed 126 kills in six weeks. However, losses had also been heavy, with 18 Hurricanes lost, seven pilots killed and five badly wounded.
Although the number of Battle of Britain claims was overestimated (as in case of virtually all fighter units), 303 Squadron was one of top fighter units in the battle and the best Hurricane-equipped one. According to historian John Alcorn, 44 victories are positively verified, what makes 303 Squadron the fourth best fighter squadron of the battle, after Squadrons Nos. 603, 609, 41, which all flew Spitfires.[3]. Considering that these victories were scored in only 17 days of combat, it was also the most efficient unit, with high kill-to-loss ratio of 2.8:1. However, J. Alcorn was not able to attribute 30 aircraft shot down to any particular unit, and according to Jerzy Cynk and some other Polish historians, the real number of victories of 303 Squadron was in fact about 55–60.

IronsE11Threads: 2
Posts: 799
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Edited by: IronsE11   Dec 3, 08, 10:06 /  #
celinski:

Show me where I made this claim?


I was referring to this:

celinski:

We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".


Except the hadn't. Had they?
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 10:08 /  #
IronsE11:

Except the hadn't. Had they?

Carol's trying to be Polish. Today she's practising a classic Polish debating technique: when losing a debate just start lying; if you can make your lies offensive lies, so much the better.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 10:16 /  #
Harry:

when losing a debate just start lying; if you can make your lies offensive lies, so much the better.


No lies here, history has the facts my friend.
IronsE11:

celinski:
We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".


Except the hadn't. Had they?


Where do you see a date? You took the quote from under,

Stop putting words on my reply's.

Thanks, Carol SKI
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
Edited by: Harry   Dec 3, 08, 10:25 /  #
celinski:

Stop putting words on my reply's.

Your exact words were:
celinski:

We were your allies, yes, you should have dropped eveything and helped save Poland. Just as Polish had done for you. "For your Freedom and Ours".

Please note the use of the past perfect. "Had done". The past perfect is used to talk about actions which take place sometime before a defined point in the past. In this case the defined point in the past is 3 September 1939: when Britain started to fight to protect Polish independence.

So when had Poland fought to save Britain?


celinski:

No lies here, history has the facts my friend.

You mean like your facts about how Poles weren't invited to the victory parade and how FDR wanted to resupply the Warsaw Uprising but Churchill stopped him and how a Polish squadron was the best squadron in the Battle of Britain?

Carol, those are not facts, they are just lies.
celinskiThreads: 83
Posts: 2,800
Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 10:27 /  #
celinski:

Maybe you are confusing this with 1920 when Polish saved Europe from Soviets and gainned her independence. :)

Harry:

So when had Poland fought to save Britain?


Want to count this?
HarryThreads: 59
Posts: 7,996
Joined: May 2, 07
  Dec 3, 08, 10:30 /  #
celinski:

Want to count this?

No. The Soviet army was a joke at that time and no threat at all to Britain. And Poland was then fighting for no country other than Poland.

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