Poland. Sold for nothing.

ConstantineK:

Do you remember my prediction that Poland, who thinks that she is a queen, actually is a simple pawn in big game. I have told you that you american ally will sell you for penny at first opportunity. Now, when the american missle shield turned into illusion because of the money, new american president is saying that they will refuse this idea in exchenge for russian support in iran cause. What Poland has in this situation? She has spoiled relationships with mighty neighbor and american twaddle. Unfortunately Poland don't want to learn her own historical lessons.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Apr 5, 09, 22:48 / #
Do you remember my prediction that Poland, who thinks that she is a queen, actually is a simple pawn in big game. I have told you that you american ally will sell you for penny at first opportunity. Now, when the american missle shield turned into illusion because of the money, new american president is saying that they will refuse this idea in exchenge for russian support in iran cause. What Poland has in this situation? She has spoiled relationships with mighty neighbor and american twaddle. Unfortunately Poland don't want to learn her own historical lessons.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Apr 5, 09, 22:55 / #
I agree with this, CK. Poland made a gesture of solidarity by signing the missile shield agreement. And now? It has made enemies in antagonising Russia and maybe even Iran. It has been relegated to a bargaining chip. The deal was signed after all. No defence at all now. A similar thing happened a few years ago. America did a U-turn when it was supposed to help Poland. My student didn't elaborate but I can ask him again what it was. American twaddle, LOL. Funny expression!!

leszek38Threads: - Posts: 33 Joined: Apr 5, 09	Edited by: Moderator Apr 5, 09, 23:48 / #
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1010/42/375948.htm "As long as the threat from Iran persists, we will go forward with the missile system," Obama said in a speech. "If the Iranian threat is eliminated, we will have a stronger basis for security, and the driving force for missile construction in Europe will be removed."

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Apr 5, 09, 23:59 / #
This will be spun out for a long time. It's my understanding that inspectors aren't being allowed to check certain sites. As JohnP has said, they can't be sure that underground complexes aren't producing nukes as we speak. If intel cannot get that kind of info then this excuse will be trotted out indefinitely. If Israel or the US don't have actionable intelligence, how do they expect to snuff out or even know of definite threats? If they do know of those threats then they should act accordingly.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 00:06 / #
leszek38: As long as the threat from Iran persists leszek38: If the Iranian threat is eliminated leszek38: we will have a stronger basis for security... My God, even birds on trees don`t believe in such a propaganda BS anymore nonsenses, all nonsenses Yugoslav concept was far better then USA or EU concepts. Oh, how THEY destroyed and devastated that vast Slavic land in crucial strategic region.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Apr 6, 09, 00:12 / #
Austrians in 1688,French in 1814,English in 1939,there is always a tendency to sell Poland.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Apr 6, 09, 00:22 / #
southern: Austrians in 1688,French in 1814,English in 1939,there is always a tendency to sell Poland. Well..you must agree...Polands politicians are not famous for their smartness and much of Polands misfortune is due to incompetence of their ruling class... Just watch back the years during the Bush time...Poland never left a possibility to annoy their european partners in favour of a widely disliked Bush...now...what brought it them? Bush is gone, their european partners are still there...

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,756 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Edited by: McCoy Apr 6, 09, 00:27 / #
ConstantineK: mighty neighbor reterded giant would be more proper. how long would it take you ruskies to stop consider yourself the world empire? Seanus: I agree with this Hahaha. Christ, Seanus do you really have to agree with everyone and everything? Just try to say "I dont agree so cut the crap, you crippleminded ****". I'm sure that you'll feel much better and in 99 % you gonna be right

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 00:34 / #
Poland would be fully functional only as part of restored Sarmatia Europae all other is just fiction of freedom

Wahldo	Apr 6, 09, 00:34 / #
McCoy: Seanus do you really have to agree with everyone and everything? haha, very true.

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Apr 6, 09, 00:56 / #
joepilsudski: Are they 'pure bred' Russian Slavs, or are they a mixture of something? hahahaha not purebred....INbred

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Apr 6, 09, 01:48 / #
I completely agree, sorry McCoy ;) A strategic partnership between Poland and Ukraine would be a healthy one. Collaborating with parties in the regions you mentioned would be to gain a strategic advantage. I meant politically, freebird. Relations got better for a while under Tusk. Kaczyński was overly hostile in his tone. Tusk then got bought.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Apr 6, 09, 03:40 / #
joepilsudski: .I saw a picture of these Russians on the web and I got curious russians are made up of all kinds of ethnicities.. not just slavic

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 05:22 / #
I disagree with you CK, normal relations with current Russian goverment are, for Poland at least not possible, Russia requires a level of concession on Polish part thats impossible to accept so we didnt aggravate our relations since they're broken from the beginning. I'm not sure the shield was worth it, personally i'm all for rationalizing Polish-USA relations but saying Russia is capable of normal relations and that the shield somehow influenced them is plain rubbish.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Apr 6, 09, 00:53 / #
ConstantineK: Do you remember my prediction that Poland, who thinks that she is a queen, actually is a simple pawn in big game. I have told you that you american ally will sell you for penny at first opportunity. Now, when the american missle shield turned into illusion because of the money, new american president is saying that they will refuse this idea in exchenge for russian support in iran cause. What Poland has in this situation? She has spoiled relationships with mighty neighbor and american twaddle. Unfortunately Poland don't want to learn her own historical lessons. I actually agree with you on most of this, хороший друг...However, your 'tone', or the way you address Polish people leaves something to be desired...As a side note, maybe you can explain something here...I saw a picture of these Russians on the web and I got curious...Are they 'pure bred' Russian Slavs, or are they a mixture of something?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Apr 6, 09, 01:22 / #
Hmmm....coloring and hair would hint about strong celtic heritage...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Apr 6, 09, 01:23 / #
I don't agree with CK on many things. There's much on here I challenge. It just so happens that I agree on this one.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Apr 6, 09, 01:44 / #
Seanus: It has made enemies in antagonising Russia and maybe even Iran. It has been relegated to a bargaining chip. The deal was signed after all. No defence at all now. Poland and Ukraine should co-operate in their defence system. I hope some day Ukrainian politics and economy will stabilize and together we can build our own system of protection without US manoeuvering and Russian capricious pouting all the time. Before that it is necessary to build some piping from other sources than Russia so energetically these two countries are not dependent on "moods" of others. Working with Middle East - Iran and Iraq as well as with Azerbajdzan, Georgia and Armenia and other Caspian sea countries may be of great value.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Apr 6, 09, 01:48 / #
Seanus: And now? It has made enemies in antagonising Russia Poland and Russia were never real friends and never will be. Most of Poles I've met in my 4 years in Poland, hated Russians more than even Germans.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Apr 6, 09, 05:34 / #
why didn't it? russian did roll up a bunch of arms and soldiers towards the polish borders.. the missles didn't help in the polish-russian relationship.. but i don't think, it necessarily hurt either.. i thought i was a mistake for poland so closely fall in behind whatever USA... especially since USA didn't really give one darn about PL under the shrubco regime..

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 05:37 / #
plk123: why didn't it? russian did roll up a bunch of arms and soldiers towards the polish borders.. the missles didn't help in the polish-russian relationship.. but i don't think, it necessarily hurt either.. i thought i was a mistake for poland so closely fall in behind whatever USA... especially since USA didn't really give one darn about PL under the shrubco regime.. The main mistake of Poland in general and Kaczyńscy in specific was not demanding a higher price, in fact Kaczyńscy were ready to pay for the base construction which is ridiculous, we could have gotten significant military modernisation projects out of the dealm instead the ruling party when US came up to **** them in the ass paid them to do it longer.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Apr 6, 09, 05:39 / #
ok, i thought the deal seemed not like a good deal for PL but that's what was signed so be it.. now PL needs to make USA come through with its promise or show how 2 faced america can really be.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Apr 6, 09, 05:47 / #
plk123: ok, i thought the deal seemed not like a good deal for PL but that's what was signed so be it.. now PL needs to make USA come through with its promise or show how 2 faced america can really be. First of all we're a country of 38.5 milion people, US has a pop of 300 milion, we are NOT equals, Poland cannot and should not antagonize US, whats happening is not US fault they're playing out their imperial ambitions, its our previous goverments fault for not being able to achieve a beneficial solution. Also lets face it Poland should stop treating US as a friend, America was never our friend or our ally, we're a tool for them and thats it, the relations need to become more business like on the Polish side.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Edited by: plk123 Apr 6, 09, 07:13 / #
Sokrates: the relations need to become more business like on the Polish side. you surely can't blame america for that.. that's all i am saying.. in business deals size doesn't matter. and yes, america was a great ally while PL was under the communist hardship.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Apr 6, 09, 08:30 / #
ConstantineK: mighty neighbor LOL !

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Apr 6, 09, 09:18 / #
joepilsudski: .I saw a picture of these Russians on the web and I got curious...Are they 'pure bred' Russian Slavs, or are they a mixture of something? Is this a Polish picture? They look Polish, don't they? I don't mean to offend you. Sure they can be Russians, but they don't look typically Russian.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 13:16 / #
plk123: you surely can't blame america for that.. that's all i am saying.. in business deals size doesn't matter. Yes it does, i'm not blaming America, i'm saying that US was never sincere in our mutual relations and its our politians fault that they failed to see it, USA is a (relatively) malevolent empire, treating them as friends or allies is simply stupid. plk123: and yes, america was a great ally while PL was under the communist hardship. America was never an ally, it was a business partner, an alliance was always there to further USA interests and US interests only, if Poland benefited along the way, good for us but it was not an important part of that 'alliance'. I'd say Poland was and still is a client state rather than an ally.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Apr 6, 09, 13:27 / #
Well, I see what you are saying, Sokrates. Still, according to definitional terms, Poland is an ally. Even co-belligerence passes as being an ally but Poland has been in NATO for about 10 years now, that makes an even stronger case. Poland agreed to fight in the War on Terror. This fits the description of 'for mutual benefit or to achieve some common purpose'.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 6, 09, 13:39 / #
Seanus: Well, I see what you are saying, Sokrates. Still, according to definitional terms, I'm not playing around with definitions, pro forma Poland and US of course are allies, de facto we're however an american client which allows itself to be exploited. Seanus: Poland agreed to fight in the War on Terror. This fits the description of 'for mutual benefit or to achieve some common purpose'. What purpose do we have to achieve against Afgani Talibs? Its not like terrorists are any serious threat, so they brought down two skyscrapers (probably since evidence is controversial) thats not really WW3.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Apr 6, 09, 13:46 / #
Name me a country which isn't exploited by forces within America? De facto, I agree. Afghanistan was payback for a failed Unocal bid