Poland's place in changing world order?

Borrka:

True but only to some extend.One cannot get rid of hundreds years being linked part to the East part to the West within 20 years.Secondly, your impressions are probably kinda superficial - don't get me wrong, it's not I'm saying Poland is perfect.But sometimes people tend to understand economic misery like being "Eastern" (actually what's wrong about that ?).Then, if you consider remains of communism like corruption, bureaucracy, lack of clean toilets to be Eastern i have to agree.I know all ex-commie countries.Believe me, all of us got similar problems.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 14:49 / #
Without attempting to justify Russian conduct towards Poland, and without complaining of Poland's grumbling towards Russia, I still cannot resist the temptation to clear up the real position of Poland! You may feel a little aggrieved at what I ask, but even you, my dear Polish friends cannot deny the fact that present political order was shaken during the last few years. Now, it is quite obvious that US is losing the game; and there will be a time when it will be forced for succumbing to isolationist demands of their own people. And what is then? What will happen with Poland, when here intimate ally will leave here to the mercy of fate and avarice of neighbours? My dear friends, you ought not to be deceived, the future have nothing good for Poland; hark, here the North Stream is approved by Sweeden and Finland, there these strengthened Russo-German ties, and the Opel's case only will lead to their further mutual consent. Whole present Polish foreign policy is falling to pieces and, as I see it, there is no clear understanding of behaving in future conditions. So, what is your opinion, where is Poland's place, that golden mean, without tossing hither and thither?

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Oct 16, 09	Nov 8, 09, 15:17 / #
I dont see US losing anything. Sooner or later, they see reason. They may let Poland down, but they will never allow any upstarts to grow too big. And, if it really hits the fan, as far as I am concerned, we will go down fighting, taking out as many enemies as we can. If we wreck forces of the dark side bad enough, they will become an easy prey for someone else. Be it US, China or whoever. Poland has survived worse things.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Nov 8, 09, 15:19 / #
First, nice to see you again Kostik. Then, it would be quite an easy question given more or less normal conditions - the only historically justified position of Poland is becoming again the Western part of Russia. Unfortunately enough I have serious doubts about future of our Slavic brothers. Galloping decomposition of the Russian economy will be soon an accomplished process with some political disaster to follow. Frankly I'm not sure Russia will be able to survive longer than 3 ... 5 years. Just look at the main macroeconomic indexes : GNP minus 10%, inflation rate plus 10%, planned budget deficit 2010 - 10%. And all that facing the growing oil prices!

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 15:48 / #
kondzior: I dont see US losing anything. Sooner or later, they see reason. They may let Poland down, but they will never allow any upstarts to grow too big. Why you are still clutching at this stupid position of allying with Russia's most ardent foe? I really cannot percieve your position! It is stupid, stupid and stupid!!! What a pity that you cannot be retrieved from your past errors! Why you cannot avow with frankness - "We were wrong in our grumbling against our devote Russian friends and now we solemnly denouncing our positions"? Borrka: Frankly I'm not sure Russia will be able to survive longer than 3 ... 5 years. Just look at the main macroeconomic indexes : GNP minus 10%, inflation rate plus 10%, planned budget deficit 2010 - 10%. And all that facing the growing oil prices! Ah Borrka! You know well that Russia had never been economically powerful, though it had never prevented us of being great political power. What is more, you see that America is oppressed with huge debt, how many trillions it consists of now? Personally I don't see Poland within our limits, I just want of Poland's submitting her own political course with Russian approval, no more. This is a good practice as it may be between cordial friends and neighbours.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Edited by: Borrka Nov 8, 09, 16:10 / #
ConstantineK: You know well that Russia had never been economically powerful Not quite true Kostik - look at the Russian Empire just before ww1. It used to be number four or five worldwide. But even without good position in those economical rankings you were able to produce high tech weapon on your own. Today even India got problems with your military exports. Not to mention the disastrous Bulava case. So don't be afraid about Poland - we are your friends anyway. We are not going to attack you like we used before. Frankly who is keen on bordering China ? So brothers take care of yourselves first. We can wait. Peredishka lol. BTW. Kostya, how was your Revolution's Day ?

kondziorThreads: 2 Posts: 400 Joined: Oct 16, 09	Nov 8, 09, 16:24 / #
ConstantineK: Why you are still clutching at this stupid position of allying with Russia's most ardent foe? I really cannot percieve your position! It is stupid, stupid and stupid!!! Arch enemy of my arch enemy is my brother! -the way of Winnetou

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 16:31 / #
Borrka: Frankly who is keen on bordering China ? What do you mean? Do you think that these yellow skinned devils can conquer us? Ha-ha... Let them fatten, thus our meal will be more lavish. Borrka: BTW. Kostya, how was your Revolution's Day ? Thank you Borrka, it was perfect as usual. But you should know that now we have two occations for celebration, now we can combine our visits in Lenin's mausoleum with venerations of prince Pozharskiy's tomb.

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Nov 8, 09, 16:33 / #
Poland's place in changing world order? services to Germany, USA, France, Britain and to Turkey on the short run On the long run Poland`s task is to accept to be completely assimilated. Then, Borg would be satisfy

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 16:34 / #
Honestly saing Constanitne is right. In my opinion Poland should be always closer in her policies to Russia than to Gemany ... As to EU it is enought to see Nord Stram to see how much this organisation is worth and what is the future of this organisation ...

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Nov 8, 09, 16:41 / #
[ ConstantineK: now we can combine our visits in Lenin's mausoleum with venerations of prince Pozharskiy's tomb. What I'm still missing is Susanin's zombie taking rest in Lenin's mausoleum. Like Soso used to do.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 17:58 / #
Borrka: Oh, sentimental references to "1612" movie ? Actually I haven't seen it yet. Borrka: What a pity he died before his imminent victory ! Imagine us being one people but of course Poles as a ruling class lol. "If we were...., if it was...." - why, you Poles, so inclined to live in Subjunctive Mood?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 19:06 / #
Sokrates: Empire that will last a thousand years Wait a minute, I have heard it already somewhere....yes, exactly, this thousand years lasting empire, I remember that its name was Third Reich! But its thousand years accidentally shrunk to 12 years. Somehow, I don't know why, Russia serves as a grave for all your millenium emires.

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09	Nov 8, 09, 21:18 / #
Salomon: As to the current West ... honestly saing it sucks. I prefere to spend my hollydays in Ukraine or Russia ... What a surprise that is.. Of course, "the west sold us out" rhetoric won't change. Nobody sold you out and you can't wait to kiss Russian cheeks again. Who in the West doesn't know this?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 8, 09, 21:43 / #
Salomon: I prefere to spend my hollydays in Ukraine or Russia ... Me too. Salomon: When I look on current west ... I simple prefere east (for many different reasons) ... as to the toilets ;-) they are cleaner in Poland than in many other old EU countries ... :) Visiting russian toilets is always a pleasure. Anyway I also think Poland has to gain a lot by an alliance with Russia.(and it can be easier to do so than for example the Baltic Republics which are largely held as fascists and enemies in Russia).Also better than Finland.(not a slavic nation).

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 16:53 / #
Borrka: What I'm still missing is Susanin's zombie taking rest in Lenin's mausoleum. Like Soso used to do. He-he..., you are still missing to mention Kuzma Minin. BTW, are you still sobbing over Sapega's deed?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Nov 8, 09, 17:37 / #
ConstantineK: BTW, are you still sobbing over Sapega's deed? Oh, sentimental references to "1612" movie ? But seriously Kostik. It was disastrous for both nations. In case of Sapieha's victory we would have been more successful (as the nation) and you Russians by far more civilized . What a pity he died before his imminent victory ! Imagine us being one people but of course Poles as a ruling class lol.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 17:49 / #
Borrka Poland should be the best Russian friend in EU ... it is more than clear than in current situation it is the best option for Poland. The reality is that Poland has very friendly policy towards Russia...

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Edited by: Borrka Nov 8, 09, 18:00 / #
Salomon: Borrka Poland should be the best Russian friend in EU . It takes two for tango. What Russia needs today is an image of some Russia's proven enemy but not one of the big shots from EU like Germany. Poland is close to be a "perfect" enemy for propaganda of besieged fortress "Russia". Kremlin knows they can trust in us. ConstantineK: why, you Poles, so inclined to live in Subjunctive Mood? Better than some Alibaba's dreams.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 18:40 / #
Borrka: It takes two for tango.What Russia needs today is an image of some Russia's proven enemy but not one of the big shots from EU like Germany.Poland is close to be a "perfect" enemy for propaganda of besieged fortress "Russia".Kremlin knows they can trust in us. Borrka I ve been to your country I'nve talked a lot... I know the reality but honestly saying I see Poland as member of the east (capitalism without democracy) than the west in current shape ...

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 8, 09, 18:48 / #
ConstantineK: So, what is your opinion, where is Poland's place, that golden mean, without tossing hither and thither? Poland invades Russia, occupies Moscow for the third time and creates an Empire that will last a thousand years at the same time keeping Russians too drunk to resist.

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Nov 8, 09, 18:56 / #
ConstantineK: my dear Polish friends cannot deny the fact that present political order was shaken during the last few years. Now, it is quite obvious that US is losing the game; and there will be a time when it will be forced for succumbing to isolationist demands of their own people. And what is then? What will happen with Poland That's true. The world is changing but I don't really see how is that bad for Poland. Polish alliance with America is a one way street and the sooner It ends, the better. You should rather worry yourself about growing power of China.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 769 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Nov 8, 09, 20:00 / #
Salomon: know the reality but honestly saying I see Poland as member of the east (capitalism without democracy) than the west in current shape ... True but only to some extend. One cannot get rid of hundreds years being linked part to the East part to the West within 20 years. Secondly, your impressions are probably kinda superficial - don't get me wrong, it's not I'm saying Poland is perfect. But sometimes people tend to understand economic misery like being "Eastern" (actually what's wrong about that ?). Then, if you consider remains of communism like corruption, bureaucracy, lack of clean toilets to be Eastern i have to agree. I know all ex-commie countries. Believe me, all of us got similar problems.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 20:10 / #
Borrka: True but only to some extend.One cannot get rid of hundreds years being linked part to the East part to the West within 20 years.Secondly, your impressions are probably kinda superficial - don't get me wrong, it's not I'm saying Poland is perfect.But sometimes people tend to understand economic misery like being "Eastern" (actually what's wrong about that ?).Then, if you consider remains of communism like corruption, bureaucracy, lack of clean toilets to be Eastern i have to agree.I know all ex-commie countries.Believe me, all of us got similar problems. Honestly saying there were periods of time in Polish history when Poland was rich country in europe ... now it seems that soon Poland is going to be richer (per capita) than for example portugal ... Honestly saying east rules It is what I think about generalisations about the east. When I look on current west ... I simple prefere east (for many different reasons) ... as to the toilets ;-) they are cleaner in Poland than in many other old EU countries ... :) As to the current West ... honestly saing it sucks. I prefere to spend my hollydays in Ukraine or Russia ...

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Nov 8, 09, 21:15 / #
ConstantineK: Without attempting to justify Russian conduct towards Poland, and without complaining of Poland's grumbling towards Russia, I still cannot resist the temptation to clear up the real position of Poland! I am an unionist, wouldn't have anything against an union between Poland&Germany Germany is not what it was before, if it was it would plan occupation or invasion of other countries or atleast something imperial. But if anyone have been reading news then germany hasn't invading any country as a single force for the purpose of gaining better living. It is changed much changed

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 21:33 / #
scrappleton: Nobody sold you out and you can't wait to kiss Russian cheeks again. Yeahhhh....we like it! But in case of Poland, it would be Judas's kiss.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 22:15 / #
scrappleton: What a surprise that is.. Of course, "the west sold us out" rhetoric won't change. Nobody sold you out and you can't wait to kiss Russian cheeks again. Who in the West doesn't know this? Poland shoudn't give the fVck about the west as west doesn't give a fvck about Poland ... southern: Visiting russian toilets is always a pleasure. Especialy those with Toi Toi babushkas.... southern: Anyway I also think Poland has to gain a lot by an alliance with Russia.(and it can be easier to do so than for example the Baltic Republics which are largely held as fascists and enemies in Russia).Also better than Finland.(not a slavic nation). In my opinion Poland should start to act in EU as like inside organisation without the fututre ...

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Nov 8, 09, 22:19 / #
southern: Visiting russian toilets is always a pleasure. Ohhh, Southern, are you gay fetishist?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 8, 09, 22:22 / #
ConstantineK: Southern, are you gay Not everyone is like Constantine.However I think russian gays are lucky,plenty of good looking men there. Salomon: Poland shoudn't give the fVck about the west as west doesn't give a fvck about Poland ... Poland has nothing to sell to the West apart from worker power.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Nov 8, 09, 22:26 / #
southern: Poland has nothing to sell to the West apart from worker power. Polish economy is on rise ... and it seems that Poland soon is going to be richer than many countries of so called west ... Greeks are second on the list after Portugalese ... so watch you back ...

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,900 Joined: May 17, 07	Nov 8, 09, 22:28 / #
Salomon: and it seems that Poland soon is going to be richer than many countries of the west ... Any source?I have eyes,I saw what is going on.