Polish crossroads - EU or eventual future Slavic integrations

Before the Yugoslav wars Emir Šišić was a MiG-21 pilot of the 124. Fighter Aviation Squadron 117, a Fighter Aviation Regiment from the Željava Air Base near Bihać, SR Bosnia and Herzegovina. On January 7, 1992 (during the war in Croatia), an AB-205 helicopter of the European Community Monitor Mission entered the Yugoslav air space without requesting permission. During the conflicts at the time it was forbidden to enter Yugoslav air space over Croatia because the JNA was aware of efforts to arm the badly out gunned Croatian Army. Emir Šišić received orders to intercept the helicopter. He took off from Željava air base in a MiG-21 Bis with military registration 17214. Over the village of Novi Marof near Varaždin, he received confirmation to down the helicopter, the attack killed five observers. After the evacuation of JNA personnel from Želajva, Šišić continued his service as a pilot in the FR Yugoslavia Air Force flying An-26 cargo aircraft at Batajnica Air Base.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 18, 09, 15:21 / #
Are you interested to talk about this? What can offer EU and what eventual Slavic Confederation to Poland? Who can offer more- on numerous fields, from economy to the culture? what promissing more prosperity? what offering safety from terrorism in global vilage? what is bater for Poland? those and many other questions... here, in thread about Polish crossroads... ... crossroads...

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Oct 18, 09, 15:26 / #
You forget one thing, Crow: Poland is already a member of the EU. So it's pretty obvious for whom or for what they have chosen. >^..^< M-G (and soon Serbia will join in too)

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Edited by: Borrka Oct 18, 09, 16:41 / #
Raven, my friend, as a member of many Slavic boards, you can easy imagine what kind of Slavic cooperation is acceptable for Russia. Kinda Soviet Union without Soviets. So given that fact, any union without Russia will be politically and ideologically public enemy number one for Kremlin. We can expect permanent Russian tries to influence or destroy it. The only reasonable way to avoid destabilization is "Slavic group" within the EU. Same way as today there is the Nordic one - Sweden, Denmark, Finland and in the future Norway. But frankly, already existng so called Visegrad Group is of no importance today.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Oct 18, 09, 18:21 / #
Borrka: "Slavic group" within the EU. Why on Earth would you want to do that? I think we should get rid of this "Slavic" and "Germanic" nonsense and accept the fact that we are all humans and Europeans. In modern-day Europe there is no room anymore for such 19th century ressentiments. They're of no relevance anymore and should be forgotten as a bad mistake made by some romantic fools. Time for the future, not for the past. >^..^< M-G (no slavs, no germans, just humans)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 18, 09, 18:48 / #
Borrka: So given that fact, any union without Russia will be politically and ideologically public enemy number one for Kremlin. you know, its valuable comment. Thanks If it is possible to establish some vast Slavic state based on Slavic heritage/language (most probably- Polish langauge as first official) streached from Baltic to Balkan, via Pannonia (Russia excluded) it isn`t imposssible to imagine tramendous impact of such a political/militarely enthity on political realm of Europe and even world. Yes, in past Polish-Lithuanian Comonwelth was threat and obstacle for Russian ambitions. If we were to go even deeper in past we can mention all kind of tribal wars between Sarmatia Europae and Sarmatia Asiatica, wars between Sarmatia and Scythia. All those wars were wars for primate inside of Slavic world, wars between elites and different cultural centers, wars of competition. In past, i would be ready to think that it isn`t possible that Russia take possitive stance on such a, let`s say- Slavic Confederation. That simple because of well known Russo-German schemes on the account of Slavic West, on the first place. What i think sometimes is that Russian mistakes on Slavic West coming from fact that balance in Slavic world was destroyed after Roman/Teutonic/Hunish destruction of Great Moravia. In attemp to gain control over vast Slavic territory, Russian elite entered in all kind of schemes with so called West on the base of principle- take what you can, while you still can. So, Russia actualy didin`t present itself as savior of Slavic world but, as somebody who is ready to accept different compromisses with hostile non-Slavs. Not to mention that after liberation of some old Slavic territory from non-Slavic control, Russia regularely imposed its own standards and influence on `liberated` Slavic population. All in all i do believe that political reality changing and that pressure on Russian western borders /western sphera/ becoming too strong. There is significant possibility that hostile non-Slavs encircle and isolate Russia. So, it is expected that Russia start possitively to look on possible future Slavic integrations and accept such a reality if just those Slavic integrations declare its military neutrality on global military alliances. It is much bater for Russia if Russia has some vast Slavic Confederation on its western borders then for example Great Germany or something (EU/NATO). Not to mention that Russia also have to worry for its eastern borders that are now `under control` but are always historicaly hostile zone. Borrka, Poland has historic chance to re-establish political realty of legendary Sarmatia, don`t you see that? We are all in front of great chance, all- Slavic West (Poland, Cezska), Slavic South (Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Macedonia, Bulgaria) and Slavic East all to the Slovakia and Ukraine and, who knows, maybe even Byelorussia. Even Hungary, Romania, Greece, Lithuania, Letonia, Estonia,... are all possible candidates for membership in Slavic Confederation, no matter that aren`t dirrectly Slavic but just were Slavic or historicaly deeply connected with Slavic world.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Edited by: MareGaea Oct 18, 09, 19:01 / #
Keep on dreaming, Crow. Your dreams are entertaining, but just what they are: dreams. It will never happen. Even if they weren't all part of the EU, would you really think that the EU and the US would allow a most likely useless Slavic confederation right on its Eastern Borders? Heck no. And besides all this: it would be only good as a buffer to Russia and would act as battlefield should any war occur. You're much safer within the EU than you would be in such a Slavic confederation. Soon the alarm clock will ring and you will awake from pleasant dreams. Forget about Slavic brotherhood, it's not a relevant issue nowadays and make the best of what you got. >^..^< M-G (tiens)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 18, 09, 19:06 / #
Borrka: The only reasonable way to avoid destabilization is "Slavic group" within the EU. i can imagine something like that but, as members of EU, Slavs within EU would have to accept all enemies of /Germany, France, Britain,.../ as their own enemies. Long run strategical goal of Poland (rest of the Slavic world without Russia) doesn`t need to be destruction of Russia and Great China on Polish eastern borders but, prevention of Russia to intefere in Poland`s vital interests. What we need are normal and profitable realations with Russia. We need that Russia live and to be our tamphon zone between us and China and, Russia needs us to be her tamphon zone between her and so called west. To become realy independent and powerfull Poland don`t need to be subjugated to Germany, France and Britain via EU but Poland needs support from other Slavic countries. Poland desperately needs support from other Slavs in order to become real core of reborn mighty Slavic state in Europe. Only this quaranties preservation of Polish/Slavic way of life. Only Slavic Confederation quaranties true freedom, safety and prosperity. MareGaea: would you really think that the EU and the US would allow a most likely useless Slavic confederation right on its Eastern Borders? Heck no. of course not. Austro-Hungarian archduke also didn`t like idea of free Slavs Freedom is precious thing and one must be ready for obstacles and sacrafices on the way to freedom.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Edited by: MareGaea Oct 18, 09, 19:28 / #
Crow: free Slavs But you are free now! PL and all the other Eastern European friends voluntarily joined the EU. There was no force from within the EU. Au contraire, most EU members at the time would rather NOT have PL and ROM and BUL within the EU, so if you say that the "Slavic" countries are not free in the EU and forced into joining, then just remember that we (the West) were also forced to accept you within the EU. Edit: if you would have asked Germans, Dutch, Belgians, French, Danes, Italians, Austrians if they would want PL in the EU, most of them would've said "no". >^..^< M-G (but we're one big family anyway)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Oct 18, 09, 19:41 / #
MareGaea: But you are free now! PL and all the other Eastern European friends voluntarily joined the EU. There was no force from within the EU. Au contraire, most EU members at the time would rather NOT have PL and ROM and BUL within the EU, so if you say that the "Slavic" countries are not free in the EU and forced into joining, then just remember that we (the West) were also forced to accept you within the EU. MareGaea: and soon Serbia will join in too Serbia would maybe become member of EU but, it would be wise to remember that before that Yugoslavia was attacked and destroyed by EU and NATO and that Serbia was conquored and her territory split. No, Balkan Serbs aren`t free. BDW, neither the Lusatian Serbs. MareGaea: Edit: if you would have asked Germans, Dutch, Belgians, French, Danes, Italians, Austrians if they would want PL in the EU, most of them would've said "no". here, i agree with you. Just don`t forget to add that all those Germans, Dutch, Belgians, French, Danes, Italians, Austrians,... realy don`t give a sh** for Poles but that in the same time don`t have anything against Polish territory. If you understand me

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Oct 18, 09, 19:57 / #
Crow: Serbia would maybe become member of EU but, it would be wise to remember that before that Yugoslavia was attacked and destroyed by EU and NATO and that Serbia was conquored and her territory split The EU or NATO did not have a part in the Yugoslav Civil War. I agree on this part as far as Kosovo is concerned, but the rest it was you guys alone. But it's in Serbia's best interest that they join in, because you cannot rely on allies like Russia, who basically scr*w you over whenever they get the chance. I deliberately left the UK and Ireland out of the list of Europeans asked about PL's joining the EU because I sometimes get the impression that they are too focused on themselves alone and the US and don't have a clue about the dynamics in Continental Europe. Prove can be seen by the fact that they were, with Sweden, the only three countries that opened their borders for Poles in 2004. The others knew what was going to happen. >^..^< M-G (was kinda shocked to learn that to every Dutch and German person in Dublin, there are 40 to 50 Poles)

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Edited by: MareGaea Oct 18, 09, 21:22 / #
There were indeed some question marks about Tudzman's (ustasza-) past. And Slovenia called in the help of Germany when the war started on the 25th of June 1991. However, this help didn't come and instead we had the (in-)famous EU-Trojka to try and negociate a peace. But this does not diminish that the central government in Belgrade used unequal excessive force to try and shut down any seperation moves by the Slovenes and the Croats. It was like using a steamhammer to crush a mosquito. It's normal that the rest of the world will take sympathy for the underdog in that case. However, this having said, I do not regard this as direct involvement of the EU in a (militairy) way. This couldn't have been pssble as the Yugoslav Civil War brought to light the hopeless division between the EU memberstates as to what course they should be taken. You have to remember that the EU was about to establish itself as winning factor in Europe and the World and at that very moment right in its own backyard one of the most bloody wars since WW2 broke out. Crow, I am willing to take you seriously, BUT ONLY if you admit the very questionable role of Slobodan Milosevic in the war. It was him who steered towards war and let it escalate. He could've stopped the violence, but he didn't want to. As soon as you admit his role in the Yugoslav Civil War, which destroyed one of the most beautiful countries in Europe, then you're the man as far as I'm concerned. For me personally, I had been to Yugo a lot of times on holidays and seeing this beautiful country with its friendly ppl destroy itself beyond repair nearly brought tears to my eyes. I could see my friends kill eachother in a hatred that I've never seen live on TV before. I also saw the concentration camps in Bosnia. How Vukovar completely got destroyed and nobody said a single word, but when one bomb was dropped on Dubrovnik, the hypocrite Western World stood on its toes to condemn it. The Western World should have intervened in it, stopped the violence and restore Yugo. Instead we (in this case the Dutch) have a lifelong trauma concerning the fall of Srebrzenica, which was supposed to be defended by the Dutch army. But they were outnumbered by far by Mladic' troops and tanks. Come on Crow, admit Slobodan's role in the violence and the war and you're the man! We have Karadzic in custody now, Mladic should hang too. He's a warcriminal. Admit this, Crow! >^..^< M-G (does agree with Crow that Yugo should come back)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Oct 18, 09, 22:26 / #
So which Slavic country are we going to integrate with? Ukraine in its richest regions is about as rich as the most pyss poor Eastern Polish provinces, Belarus lives in caves and hunts polar bears, Lithuania is the size of the wart on my ass and its a small wart. And there's rich, powerfull and strong Germany with which we do have more common interests then not, choices suck :(

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Oct 19, 09, 02:23 / #
MareGaea: I have the same opinion about religion: is religion causing war and other nasty stuff? Get rid of it. Unfortunately it has in the past and for some reason it's still around. You might as well get rid of the secularists too... "The statement that wars have been fought in the name of God is a non squitur. As the theologian Walter Wink once pointed out, more people have died in the twentieth century’s secular wars than in the preceding fifty centuries of fighting combined…. No religious war in history, not all the religious wars of history added together, did as much damage as this century’s wars of nationalism and ideology. So if we are to ban religious sentiment from public life because it has been responsible for so much horror, let us not forget to ban advocacy of freedom or justice as well." —Civility by Stephen L. Carter http://democraticpeace.wordpress.com/2008/11/24/reevaluating-chinas-de mocide-to-73000000/

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Oct 18, 09, 20:07 / #
MareGaea: The EU or NATO did not have a part in the Yugoslav Civil War. wait, are you familiar with fact that EU actualy dirrectly militarely was involved in destruction of Yugoslavia? EU tried to control Yugoslav air space in order to prevent Yugoslav federal army to innitaily act against pro-German orriented separatists of Nazi ideology. Before the Yugoslav wars Emir Šišić was a MiG-21 pilot of the 124. Fighter Aviation Squadron 117, a Fighter Aviation Regiment from the Željava Air Base near Bihać, SR Bosnia and Herzegovina. On January 7, 1992 (during the war in Croatia), an AB-205 helicopter of the European Community Monitor Mission entered the Yugoslav air space without requesting permission. During the conflicts at the time it was forbidden to enter Yugoslav air space over Croatia because the JNA was aware of efforts to arm the badly out gunned Croatian Army. Emir Šišić received orders to intercept the helicopter. He took off from Željava air base in a MiG-21 Bis with military registration 17214. Over the village of Novi Marof near Varaždin, he received confirmation to down the helicopter, the attack killed five observers. After the evacuation of JNA personnel from Želajva, Šišić continued his service as a pilot in the FR Yugoslavia Air Force flying An-26 cargo aircraft at Batajnica Air Base. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emir_%C5%A0i%C5%A1i%C4%87 Crow: No, Balkan Serbs aren`t free. BDW, neither the Lusatian Serbs. just to add Serbian situation seams like a trend, eternal reminder that prosperity of western parts of Europe has foundations in Serbian (read- Slavic; Serbs are just first line) slavery, sufferings and blood.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Oct 18, 09, 20:25 / #
Crow: against pro-German orriented separatists of Nazi ideology. Do you mean Franjo Tudzman with this? >^..^< M-G (having dinner, hence the short reply)

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Oct 18, 09, 21:07 / #
MareGaea: Do you mean Franjo Tudzman with this? exactly

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Oct 18, 09, 22:16 / #
MareGaea: I think we should get rid of this "Slavic" and "Germanic" nonsense Why ? I think Euroregion makes one of main ideas for the EU. Even kids from one block are kinda closer.lol If not, then get rid of Benelux and Nordic Union. Explain Germans they have more in common with Slovakia than with Austrians lol. Try to convince English there is no special relationship between them and Yanks and "down under" is just some far away geographical location. It works like that: From the Oder river to Kamtchatka everybody knows who was Bogdan Khmelnitsky. Probably only a few have heard of Rip van Winkle. It's our common East-European heritage. We do like it and enjoy it. Be it Russian, Polish or Czech. And definitely there is nothing wrong about that. Rather possibility to improve our relations.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Oct 18, 09, 22:24 / #
I don't think that is what Crow has in mind....he means war and disunion. That is the thinking of the last century. But some still haven't learned... When Europe want's to secure it's future we need to do it as Europeans and not as Slavs or Germanics (or as Crow wants it: Slavs AGAINST Germanics)!

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Edited by: MareGaea Oct 19, 09, 00:51 / #
Borrka That's not what I meant. Vive la difference, but if this being "different" leads to war and other not so comfortable disruptions in the evolution of time, then I would say get rid of it. The Nordic Union and the Benelux are not causing any animosity anywhere in the world, while a Slavic union most definitively would. I'm not saying the Slavs shouldn't feel for their brethren, but it shouldn't overrule everything else. Who cares if the Germans not the same as your ppl? If you can do business with them and they will protect you, then I don't see an issue at all. Edit: I have the same opinion about religion: is religion causing war and other nasty stuff? Get rid of it. Unfortunately it has in the past and for some reason it's still around. Pls note that I don't think of Slavs as a seperate "race" nor do I do so with the Germans. Both are part of the Caucasian Race and there are three races in the world: Caucasian, Negroid and Mongoloid; everything else is a subdivision and should imo not be considered as a seperate race. But that's my view. Yet I still don't have a statement from Crow concerning the admitting of the role of Slobodan Milosevic in the Yugoslav Civil War. >^..^< M-G (I will take him seriously after he does that in writing and in black and white)

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Oct 19, 09, 08:24 / #
Babinich If you haven't caught my drift on this one, I meant that I don't like everything that causes ppl to cause war. >^..^< M-G (tiens)