Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

nrx:

Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 8, 09, 22:44 / #
Have ended free speech, what? I just feel for the family of the guy. He was given some hope as he was fed well. I think he knew in his heart that his head would be lopped off. The Taliban were making unrealistic demands. As I said before, I predict some violence in places like Peterborough, England. There are many Poles and Pakistanis there. Those Pakistanis are so inept. The militants could wipe them out even when the ratio is 5:1. They have no commitment to the cause. Time for Obama to drop them as friends. They are no such thing.

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Edited by: Eva_K Feb 8, 09, 22:53 / #
Seanus: They give Islam a bad name by shouting Allah Akbar all the time. They are radicals and not true Muslims. Who would you call a "true Muslim"? Surely not just the small minority of so-called moderates who live in safe and ideologically diverse places like the USA, and who - for the most part - assimilate into Western-style society! Go to a variety of places like the Yemen, the Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, the Taliban-held regions of Afghanistan or Iran and tell the millions of people there that they are not "true muslims". They'll doubtless disagree. On the other hand, they'll find true brothers-in-Islam in the perpetrators of the beheading mentioned in the opening post. No matter the degree of their radicalism, they are all muslims - moderates and extremists alike. It's not anyone else's place to decide who is and who is not a true muslim.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 8, 09, 22:56 / #
True enough. Many Muslims I've met personally have that radical streak. They take their religion way too seriously. Many are backwards and lack the necessary respect for women.

BartolomeThreads: 2 Posts: 1,342 Joined: Sep 14, 06	Feb 8, 09, 23:16 / #
Serbia-style bombing would be inefficient and would cause widespread criticism. As Mao Ze Dong said, guerrillas are fish in civilian sea, and that's the case here in my opinion, and mostly civilians would be casualties. One factor against carpet bombing is the terrain in Afghanistan. Mountains, tunnels, hideouts would make efficiency of Allies' superior firepower greatly limited. I think NATO know what they're doing - their action may seem slow, but it's the only way considering limited forces available.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 8, 09, 23:19 / #
I wouldn't be so sure that they know what they are doing. Many Commanders would disagree with you.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 8, 09, 23:22 / #
I am a muslim and a pakistani and an engineer too currently working in poland. I am truly shocked at this news since I am in similar shoes as that poor guy was. However what makes me sad is this ongoing discussion about true/false muslims. Whatever is happening over there is a political war and both stakeholders misuse religion and Islam to their own interest. Some western governments and media use it to fuel anti-islamic sentiments and those taliban use it against poor teenagers to recruit them. This is not a war of one ideology against another, its purely politically motivated just like any other war. Its true that muslims need to be educated about many things and out of those things, many won't change. What we all need to to do accept each others cultural differences. I have seen and lived both cultures and I understand the justifications from both sides. As far as the radical streak is concerned that a friend just mentioned, it doesnot necessarily support taliban ideology. I have lived in Pakistan for about 22 years and trust me folks, all those true/untrue/radical/moderate muslims are as scared of talibanization as you would be. They don't want it, some of them are not very vocal about it, some of them despise it but nobody religious or not, wants to live in a society where religion is imposed except for those who'll be the imposers.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 8, 09, 23:26 / #
Maybe you are right. I have discussed this with some Pakistanis and they say the same. I just fear that your government is too weak and lacks the necessary commitment to bring about the downfall of the Taliban. Your military commander is prepared to get tough but without the required political backing, I think that the Taliban will be there to terrorise everyone for quite some time yet.

BartolomeThreads: 2 Posts: 1,342 Joined: Sep 14, 06	Feb 8, 09, 23:32 / #
Seanus: I wouldn't be so sure that they know what they are doing. Many Commanders would disagree with you. Perhaps I was over-optimistic judging NATO, but since countries are reluctant to commit more forces the war is going at snail's pace. But imo mass bombings aimed at partisans would probably be as inefficient as in Vietnam and would lead to huge civilian casualties.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 8, 09, 23:35 / #
nrx: I have lived in Pakistan for about 22 years Are the Taliban getting stronger there?. Bartolome: would lead to huge civilian casualties. And more hatred towards the West.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 8, 09, 23:36 / #
Spot on Seasus, What scares people is the fact that whenever there is corruption and too much injustice in the society, its usually followed by something revolutionary (iran, soviet union etc.). In this case it happens to be taliban who are offering an alternative that noone is willing to accept atleast in Pakistan proper. Whenever, someone happens to be victimized by the coalition forces (including Pakistanis), its provides a perfect opportunity for the radical leadership to get more recruits. Working for them means that you can earn pretty much the same as a fresh graduate. So this war needs to be fought at several fronts and not just military. Carpet bombings will just make things worse unless you eradicate the whole population.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 8, 09, 23:38 / #
That's the danger, yes. Minimising civilian casualties has hardly been a major success story for either Israel of America. I'm not sure if you are aware but Karzai isn't the puppet that the US had hoped he would be. He is even threatening to ally himself closer with the Russians as Joe Biden really wound him up in their meeting.

dtaylorThreads: 15 Posts: 992 Joined: Sep 15, 07	Edited by: dtaylor Feb 8, 09, 23:46 / #
It only shows one thing, religious wars are never needed, the same with religion! Here's a thing, JPII didnt give a toss about Ireland during the troubles eh?

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Feb 8, 09, 23:53 / #
Seanus: ... Karzai isn't the puppet that the US had hoped he would be. He is even threatening to ally himself closer with the Russians ... No surprises there. (Many saw that threat coming a long time ago.) If he goes through with it, Karzai can't seriously expect more autonomy under Russian pressure than he has under the USA. He is a fool if he thinks he'll be able to retain power without one of those super-powers behind him, and an even bigger goof if he thinks he'll have real control of his government (or the fate of his country) while allied with either.

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Feb 9, 09, 00:12 / #
nrx: I am in similar shoes as that poor guy Are you being held captive by radio-maryja religious extremists? Are they threatening to crucify you if pakistan doesn't meet their demands? Or maybe hang you by a rosary? :D The savagery and barbarity of your part of the world never ceases to amaze me, nrx. Sometimes it doesn't feel like we're living in the 21st century. Seanus: I hope they had the decency to anaesthetise him but I doubt it. How naive of you to even think of this, seanus. What a horrible death. I remember watching (well only a few seconds - i just couldn't finish it) the beheading of Daniel Pearl. Simply horrible.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 8, 09, 23:43 / #
SeanBM: Are the Taliban getting stronger there?. Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work.

MistyThreads: 6 Posts: 196 Joined: Jul 20, 08	Feb 8, 09, 23:52 / #
nrx: Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work. So in answer to SeanBM's question, the Taleban are getting stronger. Why are they getting stronger? Because those shopkeepers are doing what they say and there is no power to stop that. The Taleban aren't out to win hearts and minds, they're out to kill those who they feel are against them whether that feeling is justified or not. If, bit by bit, the Taleban infiltrate Pakistan by blowing up a shop here, a school there, a church here, a hospital there, they can soon control because people will fear going against them in case they are the next to be blown up by them.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 00:05 / #
Misty: So in answer to SeanBM's question, the Taleban are getting stronger. Why are they getting stronger? Because those shopkeepers are doing what they say and there is no power to stop that. The Taleban aren't out to win hearts and minds, they're out to kill those who they feel are against them whether that feeling is justified or not. If, bit by bit, the Taleban infiltrate Pakistan by blowing up a shop here, a school there, a church here, a hospital there, they can soon control because people will fear going against them in case they are the next to be blown up by them. Well its a bit more complex than that but I'll try to explain it. I am not a practicing muslim but I studied it in great detail especially after 9/11 in order to understand what the whole fuss was about. Many of you will be surprised but IMHO there is no such thing as an Islamic system of government. Islam never intended to chalk out a country's constitution. If there was such a thing as an Islamic state, there would be no Shias and Sunnis today. Right after the death of Muhammad, a conflict broke out in terms of who gets to be the next Caliph which gave rise to shia and sunni factions. Among sunnis, there is one kind that are directly influenced by the Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia which is nothing more than a mean to control masses without giving them a chance to complain and all in the name of religion. The other kind which mostly exists in Pakistan and east of Pakistan, is the more easy going type. They may or may not take their religion seriously but they surely dont want a Saudi style system. So when you talk about taliban infiltrating and forcing a system of belief, there is going to be a lot of opposition to that since there is no defined Islamic state as I mentioned earlier. In the tribal areas of Pakistan there is a battle going on already based on sacterian divide since there is a large Shia population living there who are obviously resistive against taliban. Based on their threat tactics, they cannot go all the way because sooner or later they will face some competition. Right now they are only limited to Pashtun settlements. Once they try to go out and create a similar situation elsewhere, they are not likely to win but this could very well mean a civil war.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 9, 09, 00:08 / #
nrx: Based on their threat tactics, they cannot go all the way because sooner or later they will face some competition. Who is the main competition?.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 00:18 / #
SeanBM: Who is the main competition?. In simple words, every Pakistani. To be more specific, apart from military, that would be 34% Shiite population and hanfi sunnis who are sunnis like taleban but they don't follow the same school of thought and they actually represent the majority of sunni followers in Pakistan. Right now, they are cashing in from the sentiments of tribals (civilian casualities of war, poverty, lack of education), however for the tribal people themselves tribal traditions come before Islam and they have started to realize that taleban is a threat to their social structure as well. The problem is that Pakistani government is failing to act in terms of winning the local support simply because they don't have those kinds of resources to act.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 09, 00:21 / #
nrx: The problem is that Pakistani government is failing to act in terms of winning the local support simply because they don't have those kinds of resources to act. Do you mean the government does not have the resources to stop the Taliban? and therefore they are not getting the support from the people?. (correct me if I misunderstood).

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 00:21 / #
polishcanuck: Are you being held captive by radio-maryja religious extremists? Are they threatening to crucify you if pakistan doesn't meet their demands? Or maybe hang you by a rosary? Not at all. Nothing like that, you took me wrong. I was just comparing a reciprocal relationship that I share with him (RIP). I meant to say that I can understand what his family went through if same were to happen to me. I hope its clear :), my apologies if I offended you in some way :)

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 00:43 / #
SeanBM: Do you mean the government does not have the resources to stop the Taliban? and therefore not getting the support from the people?. (correct me if I misunderstood). To some extent yes. But imagine a person who doesn't have any viable means to support his family. They offer them a good salary (when i first graduated from one of the best universities in the country I had the same salary as a taleban recruit today) and security to their family with a promise to support them in his absence/death. Like any other military organization, taleban are not just a bunch of lunatic ready to blow suicide bombers. They have their alpha bravo and charlie companies with them too. So not everyone is a fighter, they need people to drive their vehicles, cook their food, bring in medical supplies, informers, spies and whatever else a military would need. So even if a person is not motivated enough to go on and blow himself up, he would not say no to a chef's job if he has no other choice. To give him an alternative, the government needs money and infrastructure in those areas which it doesn't have. Thats exactly where a just military solution seems almost absurd. Since even among taleban, not every recruit shares the same degree of commitment to whatever their cause is. Lets say most of them won't say no to a better job offer. So not only a distinction between militants and civilians is required but they also need to distinguish within the group itself. Unfortunately, the whole philosophy of war on terror is way too binary, either you are a militant or you are not and even if you are not, its ok to kill a few in the name of collateral damage. The reality is that afghan taleban, pakistani taleban and al-qaeda are three seperate phenomena and they all happen to disown each other which I am sure many of you might not be aware of.

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 9, 09, 00:48 / #
Misty: The Taliban and Al Qaeda will always be beheading people or blowing them up and sadly, there is not a damn thing the western governments can do about it. Not really. They demanded some prisoners to be released. Skin them alive now and send the tapes to Al-Jazeera.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 09, 00:49 / #
nrx: They offer them a good salary Where does the money come from?. It is logical to assume, from what you have told me, that if you could cut the flow of money there would not be so many members. nrx: pakistani taleban and al-qaeda are three seperate phenomena and they all happen to disown each other which I am sure many of you might not be aware of. Do they not cooperate with each other? against their common enemies?.

MistyThreads: 6 Posts: 196 Joined: Jul 20, 08	Edited by: Misty Feb 9, 09, 00:52 / #
polishcanuck: Sometimes it doesn't feel like we're living in the 21st century. Absolutely spot on. Humans really seem to have regressed as a race. polishcanuck: What a horrible death. I remember watching (well only a few seconds - i just couldn't finish it) the beheading of Daniel Pearl. Simply horrible. I watched Ken Bigely's (apology if name spelling is wrong) death. It was horrible indeed. I didn't watch Daniel Pearl's yet. It's a horrible death indeed. We need to stop it happening to our people. Grzegorz_: They demanded some prisoners to be released. Skin them alive now and send the tapes to Al-Jazeera. Would only result in more deaths for us. Don't believe they care about their own suffering this fate.

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 9, 09, 01:09 / #
Misty: Would only result in more deaths for us. You can't be sure, so why don't try that out ? They cut off heads of our people and we should do what ? Give them more candies ? Let's take away some heads and play football. We will see then how brave and fearless they are.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 01:15 / #
SeanBM: Where does the money come from. Thats where many conspiracy theories kick in. A simple straight forward and widely accepted answer would be drug money. Afghanistan and Pakistan share a very strategic geographic location and the presence of American troops is not an eye candy for the neighboring countries mainly Russia and China. China probably is just observing from a distance right now but its logical to assume that they might not be very happy about it since there is already a strategic US presence in the Pacific region. However so far they haven't been proposed in the money picture. However Russia does seem to have a fishy role especially after the Kyrgyz episode and the fact that all taleban use russian weapons. Iran is of course there too since they would not like US to stabilize in Afghanistan which will tighten the rope around their neck. Thats their main weapon smuggling route. When it comes to Pakistan, no story is complete without India in the picture and there have been stories floating of a possible indian financing scheme exclusively for anti-Pakistan groups. It became more evident after India opened up around 17 consulates in Afghanistan around the region that borders Pakistan, however I cannot comment on authenticity of this claim. Its an intelligent guess from within Pakistani think-tanks who also claim to have solid evidences of the money flow but who knows. One thing is for sure that there is not just one source of money. More than anything else, its money that will decide the eventual fate of this conflict. SeanBM: Do they not cooperate with each other? against their common enemies?. First of all, all of them are not very centralized groups. Even within Pakistan several taleban groups operate that may or maynot cooperate with each other. As far as Al-qaeda is concerned, the story is also a mixed bag of cooperation and non-cooperation however afghani taliban do openly blame al-qaeda for their situation and hold them responsible for the presence of foreign forces in their country. A bit of political talk and incentives might help US achieve this goal. But then again if they had used a bit of brain they would've been able to pursuade taleban to handover OBL right there in 2001. Even at that time Afghan taleban didn't say no right away. They had their demands. They also don't have a good opinion about pakistani taleban since they (afghan taleban) think that they have sort of hijacked their just movement. They are partly correct since pakistani taleban only appeared after 2004 as a reactionary/revenge element when Pakistan decided to send its troops to tribal areas in a haste. Compared to afghanis, Pakistani ones are a confused/angry group of half-ass fighters with no clear goals or objectives.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 09, 01:23 / #
nrx: drug money And probably sold in the west, I am guessing, is heroin the main crop?. nrx: Compared to afghanis, Pakistani ones are a confused/angry group of half-ass fighters with no clear goals or objectives. They surely realised that the government was not going to deal with their demands. Did they kidnapped the Polish worker to kill him and get world press to show that they are willing?. "urging the Polish government to withdraw its contingent of about 1,100 troops from Afghanistan, where they are helping fight Taliban insurgents." I know you won't know their exact reasons but I just thought I'd ask.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 01:26 / #
Wahldo: You reap what you sow. very good. british seeds come to fruition. sorry bud.