Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

nrx:

Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work.

Grzegorz_:

You can't be sure, so why don't try that out ? They cut off heads of our people and we should do what ? Give them more candies ? Let's take away some heads and play football. We will see then how brave and fearless they are.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 01:34 / #
osiol: You are: a) wrong, seems to me he is correct. :( dtaylor: why aren't Team America in the helmand province..? because they are everywhere else in this stan.

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Feb 9, 09, 01:40 / #
Misty: Don't believe they care about their own suffering this fate. Some of them would probably welcome it. Anything to become a shaheed. They think they will be welcome in "paradise" when fighting their enemies. To fight the fanatacism, perhaps the West should resurrect an old tactic employed by General "Black Jack" Pershing during the Spanish-American War. Menaced by Islamic fighters in the Philippine Islands, Pershing handled the situation with a creative approach. He let the population know that the muslim guerrillas he executed would each be dispatched with a bullet dipped in pork fat. With pork fat entering an observant muslim's body, there is no way he will qualify for "paradise" on his death. Muslim attacks declined sharply after that. I say film some of these extremists with a pork chop stuffed in their mouths (or in a lower orafice) and/or dip an execution bullet or blade in pork fat, then give them same treatment they mete out to the people they "capture" and air that on al jazeera. No paradise for them!

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 01:53 / #
SeanBM: is heroin the main crop?. Yes, the ultimate cash crop, the biggest chunk of their GDP. SeanBM: They surely realised that the government was not going to deal with their terrorist tactics. Did they kidnapped the Polish worker to kill him and get world press to show that they are willing?. I know you won't know their exact reasons but I just thought I'd ask. Thats why I said half-assed fighters with no clear objectives. Kidnapping an innocent low profile civilian and demanding the release of their most notorious fighters is ridiculous. Killing him would do them more harm than good. Just an cowardly act of frustration I guess

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Edited by: plk123 Feb 9, 09, 04:44 / #
SeanBM: Are the Taliban getting stronger there?. definitely nrx: Its hard to say. They don't have any moral support of masses in general. Their tactics are threat based. For example, one day some shopkeepers in a multimedia market would get a message to close down their businesses or face the consequences. If they don't comply, they would blow up a shop or two and make their point. So I would say that their tactics are threat based which are not likely to win any hearts and minds. Besides Pakistan is worlds 5th largest country with such a huge level of diversity that its painful.....really. To control such a massive population with threat alone is not likely going to work. but building madrasas surely works for them in the long run. nrx: afghan taleban, pakistani taleban not really. it is the influence from afghanistan that is taking hold in NW pakistan. SeanBM: Where does the money come from?. ah, that is where obl comes in. there billions of $ coming from ksa towards this cause. Grzegorz_: You can't be sure, so why don't try that out ? They cut off heads of our people and we should do what ? Give them more candies ? Let's take away some heads and play football. We will see then how brave and fearless they are. more western heads will roll. that is not the civilized way to go greg. we have to stand above that otherwise we have no moral ground and we become just like the. al qaeda wins. nrx: A simple straight forward and widely accepted answer would be drug money. but obviously not true as talibs are against narco markets. SeanBM: I am guessing, is heroin the main crop?. yes but again, not a talib thing. others yes, but not taliban. nrx: the biggest chunk of their GDP. nope. ksa fundaising is

janosikThreads: 1 Posts: 13 Joined: Jul 21, 08	Edited by: janosik Feb 9, 09, 06:12 / #
All this muslim stuff is kinda fu*en sick sht!!!!!! They treat woman like an animal, They kill christians At all That civilization is like from Tenth Century or something!!!! There's no government to clean up that mess!!!! ONLY Hitler or Stalin would help!!!!! "Sad But True" - by Metallica

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Feb 9, 09, 10:03 / #
janosik: All this muslim stuff is kinda fu*en sick sht!!!!!! They treat woman like an animal, Eva_K: I say film some of these extremists with a pork chop stuffed in their mouths Grzegorz_: Let's take away some heads and play football. We will see then how brave and fearless they are. Wow I never knew there were so many experts in Islamic relations willing to share their knowledge on this forum. You guys must have spent a lot of time in Islamic countries to get this incredible depth of understanding. Or then again, maybe you're talking a load of crap based on wat you see on the news and read in Tom Clancy novels. I wonder which one it could be? Seanus: Many are backwards and lack the necessary respect for women. I know a country where wives are beaten by husbands who get drunk every day, where children are brought up to believe that girls are inferior to boys and where there is daily intolerance to anyone from a different social background. Where do you think that is, then? It's in central Europe and it's not Germany...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 10:09 / #
Oh, I dunno. Parts of Poland fit the bill but not entirely. Polishcanuck, I was a little tongue-in-cheek there when I mentioned the anaesthetic. I was also influenced by the viewing of a Russian soldier who was beheaded straight. I couldn't believe me eyes. You just DON'T do that. The guy above, watching the beheading of Pearl, was right to have a look at it. As it says on www.nomullas.com, to look away is to ignore what really happens. It's as sad as it gets but it happens. No point denying it. In this respect, I'm very much for the War on Terror and the work that the likes of John P does. I'm just waiting for the day that Saudi Arabia get their turn. NOT gonna happen anytime soon though.

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Feb 9, 09, 12:56 / #
MrBubbles: I wonder which one it could be? A lot of time in Islamic countries. The pork fat threat would only work on the most uneducated, yet it would challenge the sincerity of the more cosmopolitan extremist. The veneer of faith would wear thin and the most pious muslims would see the violence for what it is - not devotion to Allah, but power play.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 13:06 / #
MrBubbles: I wonder which one it could be? lol.. no kidding and besides those are some very christian like words and actions they all seem to want. much more civilized, wouldn't you say? lol MrBubbles: Where do you think that is, then? lol. good point but whatch out for a smear campaign by at least one of those.. they are so tolerant. the muslims would be amazed. NOT Seanus: I'm very much for the War on Terror waste of time and energy. the west need to butt out of others' business and things will subside.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 13:33 / #
Again, a quote taken out of context. I said in that respect that I was for the War on Terror. Ask the Americans how I feel about this. It's a phony war and then they wonder why Muslims around the world burn their flag. They complain that they are getting no help in fighting these terrorists. The Jam wisely said, "you've made your bed, you better lie in it" (Going Underground). Judge like the War on Drugs, America may find that many of its hardest criminals lie within the administration. The CIA for example.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 14:01 / #
plk123: definitely Strong enough to actually start ruling the country entirely....no... but they are definitely strong enough to sprinkle s**t here and there for years to come making the lives of Pakistanis more annoying. Pakistani intelligence estimates there numbers to be between 10k to 20k, not enough to take control but surely enough to make their point here and there. How do I know? cuz I am a Pakistani :) and how does such a small number (compared to 90000 Pakistani soldiers in the region) survive? The answer is simple, they use gurella warfare. They disguise themselves in civilian population making it harder for the army to correcting identify the true enemy without agitating the civilians. plk123: not really. it is the influence from afghanistan that is taking hold in NW pakistan. I am not saying there are not connected in anyway, of course they are, I mean they use the same title atleast. But looking at the history of two movements tells a slightly different story. Afghan talibs were representing an organized movement and they have defined goals and objectives. Pakistani ones are like bouncing atoms in a baloon. Even within themselves, they are factionized, they even use different aliases at different places. Their leadership is divided and totally decentralized. For example at one occasion, it was discovered as a result of investigations that a certain sub group within them even provides "rent-a-bomber" services in return for money. Two groups somewhere in the central Pakistan had money dispute so one of the groups actually hired (bought?) a suicide bomber to have their revenge. Now when it comes to that how can they claim that they represent some kind of genuine political movement. In these conditions what pisses off afghan taliban is the fact that they use their name to further their own agenda. plk123: ah, that is where obl comes in. there billions of $ coming from ksa towards this cause. Yea possibly among many candidate sources of money. However dont forget that he shares his fortures with a bunch of his brothers (bunch means alot in arabic :P) which dont share the same point of view as him. However there is no doubt that there is plenty of money flowing in from KSA into this war as well. plk123: talibs are against narco markets. True until this war started. One of their so called good features was eradication of poppy culture from many areas. But now probably they are not sniffing it up themselves but they are definitely using it as a economic weapon. Otherwise there is no reasonable explanation in terms of where that money is going since in recent times, afghanistan accounts for about 90% heroin smuggled around the globe and that amounts to billions of dollars. And moreover the areas where it is growing is outside the influence of allied forces and currently in control of taliban. So there is no other reasonable explanation as to where that money is going. plk123: nope. ksa fundaising is According to Congressional Research Reports USA, poppy accounted for 60% of afghan GDP in 2004. 2005 was a bad year but 2006 and 2007 saw record crops. Infact 2006 was the biggest in history (source: NYTimes article: Is Afghanistan a narco state?)

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Feb 9, 09, 14:38 / #
Seanus: America may find that many of its hardest criminals lie within the administration. The CIA for example. So true. Time will tell about the new administration, but the previous one has certainly earned its poor reputation. When the layers of patriotic rhetoric (b.s) are stripped away from the handling of world events since Sept. 11, 2001, what's left is obvious profiteering. U.S foreign policy was manipulated to gain billions of dollars for a handful of people in power, their cronies and class peers. No one can seriously believe the so-called War on Terror was launched to save America. At the same time, it would be naive to think America was behind it for oil or to otherwise benefit the US economy. (Skyrocketing gas prices, the collapse of the American automotive industry, American manufacture and ever-increasing unemployment show it was not). While the American economy fell into crisis (owing to "free trade" and a cash bloodletting into Iraq, Afghanistan and other money pits around the world) the members of the previous administration benefited. Like the Iranian elite who fled revolutionary Iran in the 1970s with billions in oil revenue and plunder from the treasury, the members of the previous administration and their families will be financially secure for generations to come.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 9, 09, 15:09 / #
plk123: obl = osama bin laden ksa = kingdom of saudi arabia. It is obvious now that I can see it. ------------------------------------------------------------- What exactly was the late Mr. Stanczak doing in Pakistan?. I read he was a geologist, does anyone know?. You must stick out like a big dollar sign being western walking around Pakistan?. I would imagine anyone working there is aware of the risks?. I am not saying it makes it any better.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 15:24 / #
SeanBM: I would imagine anyone working there is aware of the risks?. Well it wasn't like that until recently. People are actually over friendly to foreigners. The last time I went there in 2007, I had loads of fun hanging out all over the countryside with some Spaniards and Swedes who were there on some documentary project. Its usually americans who take extra caution and live inside highly secure parameters. The europeans I knew had rented a flat in the city centre and were roaming around freely and interacting with locals. I think what made Stanczak suspicous was the fact that he was with an armed bodygaurd in an SUV. Ofcourse they killed the bodygaurd and the driver. When political interests come into picture, things change sadly. All it takes is a couple of such killings to make them foreigners Pakistanphopic. As for Mr. Stanczak he was probably there for some oil/gas exploration project since the area he was kidnapped from has some reserves and there are many active companies in that region. But I am not 100% on this.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 13:40 / #
so, you're cool with just some waste of resources and lives but not all. ok, i see. ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 13:58 / #
No, I think that those draconian people should be taken out but that governments over there should be tackling the problem. It is not for American and the Allies to step in and put their own soldiers in harms way. If there are no Westerners over there, who would they attack, themselves? Fine, so be it. Let them fight it out for themselves. I'm not fine with the massive loss of life at all, especially Iraqi life. I'm not happy with the American soldiers who mocked their kids. Invading is bad enough but mocking and taunting KIDS is just plain wrong.

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,755 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Feb 9, 09, 14:10 / #
nrx: nrx you wrote that you work in Poland. I assume that even if its foreign company you must work with some Poles. Did you talk with them about what has happend? Whats your workmates attitude ( or people in general) toward you - Pakistani ? Did it change ?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Feb 9, 09, 14:19 / #
nrx: Yes, the ultimate cash crop, the biggest chunk of their GDP. That would be the logical place to start then, wouldn't it?. nrx: Killing him would do them more harm than good. Just an cowardly act of frustration I guess Yes it is very cowardly and you make a good point here about the ridiculous exchange. Governments can not give in to this type of thing. And to me it seems as if they were ill-equipped and frustrated by this policy. plk123: ah, that is where obl comes in. there billions of $ coming from ksa towards this cause. Sorry plk123, who or what is obl and ksa? and why would they support the Taliban?. plk123: but obviously not true as talibs are against narco markets. Obviously it is not part of the religion but with some warped logic it would be easy to justify, don't you think?. By warped logic I mean sell the drugs to the infidels in the west, they will do our job for us and give us the money to fight. I am just putting a theory out there, I don't know. -------------------------------------------------------------- With all due respect, I have to ask you plk123, how is it you know so much about this topic?. -------------------------------------------------------------- Jihad and Crusades all over again?. I see a lot of angry posters who are implying retaliation using equally heinous tactics that are used by the Taliban. It is understandable to a degree and I am neither for or against such talk, I just thought I would point it out.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 14:23 / #
McCoy: you wrote that you work in Poland. I assume that even if its foreign company you must work with some Poles. Did you talk with them about what has happend? Whats your workmates attitude ( or people in general) toward you - Pakistani ? Did it change ? Well I am in UK at the moment so can't really comment. However I do have some close Polish friends and there are no complains there. Infact they were the ones who ended up consoling me since my parents are quite traumatized by whatever happened due this reciprocal situation. He was a Pole working in Pakistan and I am a Pakistani working in Poland. So my me and my family naturally took this tragedy more seriously than others. As for the people's attitude in general, I'll find that out in April. But I think even if they try to vent out their anger at me, I see their justification and I should be able to face it. For you people, its an ordinary internet discussion but for the majority of peace loving pakistanis outside Pakistan, it is a terrible situation just because we share the same nationality with a bunch of morons. They do it and we end up being hated for it.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Edited by: plk123 Feb 9, 09, 14:41 / #
SeanBM: I just thought I would point it out. yup. obl = osama bin laden ksa = kingdom of saudi arabia. taliban is a wahabi sect which originates from ksa. nrx eluded to that in his post about the sunnis. (may have been his first one in this thread) SeanBM: how is it you know so much about this topic?. i'm interested in this stuff. i just recently finished reading '3 cups of tea'. i definitely recommend the book. Eva_K: naive to think America was behind it for oil actually it's naive to think otherwise.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 15:32 / #
in the article it said he was working for a polish energy company; whatever that means. if you are spending time in tribal areas it is best to have an 'insider' with you; thus the driver and body guards. that applies to many places, not just pakistan.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 15:41 / #
In this case his bodyguard and driver in an SUV gave the wrong signal. He appeared like a high profile target. He was not even in the tribal areas.

Lotnik767Threads: 6 Posts: 210 Joined: Nov 12, 08	Feb 9, 09, 15:44 / #
R.I.P Niechaj mu swiatlosc wiekojsta swieci na wieki wiekuw amen!!! This is really a sad day for us all! It just shows us that people are animals; this really could have been prevented if both sides communicated. I hate all Taliban and the people who support them, people like that and their families should be beheaded in my opinion this is all Muslims that do that.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 15:48 / #
Lotnik767: I hate all Taliban and the people who support them See plk123, this is exactly why afghan taliban disown the Pakistani ones.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 15:49 / #
nrx: not even in the tribal areas. huh? the article: volatile northwest of the country

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 15:52 / #
He was kidnapped near Attock, a town in the north of Punjab. He was later taken to the tribal areas.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Feb 9, 09, 15:56 / #
ok, i didn't see the town where he was taken. personally, i wouldn't travel around either pakistan or afghanistan without a "guide". but there is always the issue that his body guards and driver were probably from a different tribe then his kidnappers. they could have been speaking different languages too. many tribes don't see things in the same light.

foxtrot1213Threads: 2 Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 29, 08	Edited by: foxtrot1213 Feb 9, 09, 15:57 / #
I have been to Pakistan (Lahore and Karachi) and I met one of the nicest people in my life. Infact, I lived with one family and they refused to take a single dime from me as my living expenses and food costs. Afghanistan is incomplete failed mission, and I wonder why there were/are more troops in Iraq than in Afghanistan. His bodyguard and driver was also killed but I guess their lives have no value at all. Maybe just one single line in the news. All this muslim stuff is kinda fu*en sick sht!!!!!! They treat woman like an animal, LOL. I heard some yelling outside at around 02:00 on Saturday night/Sunday morning. I asked around and turned out that husband/boyfriend was treating his lady nicely :) and oh! I forgot to tell that I am in Helsinki now Maybe you should stop watching John Rambo movies for the sake of your own brain cells :D

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 9, 09, 15:59 / #
nrx: He was kidnapped near Attock, a town in the north of Punjab. I am just looking to see where it all is, where is Attock exactly?. Perhaps there is a better map?.

foxtrot1213Threads: 2 Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 29, 08	Feb 9, 09, 16:01 / #
Attock is just near NWFP.