Polish engineer beheaded in Pakistan.

nrx:

Thats why I said half-assed fighters with no clear objectives. Kidnapping an innocent low profile civilian and demanding the release of their most notorious fighters is ridiculous. Killing him would do them more harm than good. Just an cowardly act of frustration I guess

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 16:02 / #
Yea they could be speaking different languages. However since the area he was kidnapped from is not part of the tribal belt, the question of not seeing the things in the same light doesn't really fit here. The way it was reported in Pakistani media suggests that probably they (driver and the guard) didn't even communicate with the kidnappers. The whole episode started off with the kidnappers shooting at them and both of them ended up dead right on spot. It was a typical shoot and run surprise attack.

wolaThreads: - Posts: 13 Joined: Jan 11, 09	Feb 9, 09, 16:04 / #
Wahldo: They are driven more by weird convictions rather than by necessity as you seem to imply No they are driven by f..... up backgrounds from birth, nothing to do with convictions or religion. They are a disgrace to the muslin faith, I don't know why more dedicated genuine muslims dont speak out and enlighten the world to these imposters of their genuine faith.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,410 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Edited by: plk123 Feb 9, 09, 16:06 / #
sean N 33.881817, E 72.218628

foxtrot1213Threads: 2 Posts: 49 Joined: Aug 29, 08	Feb 9, 09, 16:11 / #
wola: They are a disgrace to the muslin faith, I don't know why more dedicated genuine muslims dont speak out and enlighten the world to these imposters of their genuine faith. They do speak out. How many times did International Media cover them? Seems to me that it is easier for idjits to make some headlines.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Feb 9, 09, 16:19 / #
plk123: 33.881817,72.218628 Ah I see thank you. ------------------------------------------------------------ The Polish media are taking this as a personal attack it seems. As if the Taliban did this because Mr. Stanczak was Polish. Would any of you agree with this?, or was it more of an attack on a western target, possible high profile?. Perhaps there is not enough information to make an informed opinion yet, I don't know. However his nationality was apparent to them because they did force Mr. Stanczak to say "urge the government to withdraw its contingent of about 1,100 troops from Afghanistan, where they are helping fight Taliban insurgents." nrx: Thats why I said half-assed fighters with no clear objectives. Kidnapping an innocent low profile civilian and demanding the release of their most notorious fighters is ridiculous. Killing him would do them more harm than good. Just an cowardly act of frustration I guess "The hostagetakers initially wanted the release of 60 Islamist fighters held in Pakistan. Then they brought down the number, and ended by demanding the release of no more than four detainees" From the link on the original post. It would appear that you are correct in your post, that these people were half-assed fighters with no clear objectives.

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,755 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Edited by: McCoy Feb 9, 09, 16:30 / #
Grzegorz_: need to be skinned alive we had a nice tradition of impalement. from 14 to 18 century it was a very common method of execution in eastern part of Rzeczpospolita. impalement lasted even couple hours and the impaled guy was dying for a few days.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Edited by: time means Feb 9, 09, 16:32 / #
SeanBM: As if the Taliban did this because Mr. Stanczak was Polish. Would any of you agree with this?, or was it more of an attack on a western target, all westerners are targets but those with troops within afghanistan will probably be more at risk. mcCoy that made my eyes water never mind the poor guy on the stake.

McCoyThreads: 46 Posts: 1,755 Joined: Jul 3, 08	Feb 9, 09, 16:39 / #
time means: mcCoy that made my eyes water never mind the poor guy on the stake. he was a muslim killing poles. he got what he deserved. that's what those talibans should get

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,309 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Feb 9, 09, 16:46 / #
McCoy: that's what those talibans should get agreed.

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 9, 09, 17:46 / #
plk123: more western heads will roll. Yes. No matter what we do. So let's kill some of theirs too.

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Feb 9, 09, 17:50 / #
thats a good idea hey, why dont we kill ourselves just to spite them

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Edited by: dcchris Feb 9, 09, 17:52 / #
This is a terrible act for sure. Polish FM vows to hunt down Taliban killers of hostage. [url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090209/wl_sthasia_afp/pakistanpolan dunrestkidnapqaeda_20090209154646][/url] Thats some big talk, however. I cant actually see Polish troops actively hunting for these guys in Pakistan... foxtrot1213: I wonder why there were/are more troops in Iraq than in Afghanistan. they dont have any oil in Afghanistan that I am aware of. As far as the drug trafficking, the USA military does not have a clean history concerning heroin trafficking if one inspects their actions in the Vietnam War...

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,112 Joined: Feb 23, 08	Feb 9, 09, 18:12 / #
dcchris: they dont have any oil in Afghanistan that I am aware of. As far as the drug trafficking, the USA military does not have a clean history concerning heroin trafficking if one inspects their actions in the Vietnam War... Every post DC Piss rips on the states.. pathetic.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 18:14 / #
No oil, no, but plenty of opportunities to put a pipeline through as a transit route.

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 9, 09, 18:01 / #
McCoy: he got what he deserved. that's what those talibans should get True.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Feb 9, 09, 18:18 / #
Grzegorz_: True. Never going to happen G - LOL they cant even convict British "born" Pakistanis who are caught with tapes inciting hate and talking of beheading people, do you honestly think they are going to catch these bastards who live in Pakistan?

JohnPThreads: - Posts: 544 Joined: Sep 8, 07	Feb 9, 09, 18:20 / #
dcchris: As far as the drug trafficking, the USA military does not have a clean history concerning heroin trafficking if one inspects their actions in the Vietnam War... Whoop-de-doo. Assuredly, it's the same now 60 year old men who were drafted in 1968 who are fighting our wars now, too. FWIW its nobody's business what the US military is doing in Pakistan or Afghanistan...but the US, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. Soon as public opinion starts deciding things again, people will scream for mercy for the guys who were recently lopping heads, they will complain loudly if these men have to endure any discomfort in efforts to find OTHER head loppers etc out there, and ultimately they will receive trials with highly paid lawyers that any of the citizens of our own countries could not themselves afford. Shortly thereafter, the US or Polish or whoever captured these men...will be made to be the bad guys. forgive the sarcasm, rant concluded. That said, people ARE going after the people who did these things. Forgive us for not inviting a news crew to go along this time, so they can call their friends at Al Jazeera who then call THEIR friends, so ultimately...the news crew can film a bloody fire fight, which could have been a quiet capture leading to a trial. Of course, in certain cases, one almost hopes for a fight, just so the gloves can figuratively come off for certain of these. John P.

Pinching PeteThreads: 1 Posts: 1,112 Joined: Feb 23, 08	Feb 9, 09, 18:23 / #
JohnP: the US or Polish or whoever captured these men...will be made to be the bad guys Exactly, after all we should feel sorry for those who do the beheadings. They are just misunderstood freedom fighters. Salt of the earth. Funny, poor Chinese, Mexicans, etc don't practice beheading.

JohnPThreads: - Posts: 544 Joined: Sep 8, 07	Feb 9, 09, 18:36 / #
Pinching Pete: Funny, poor Chinese, Mexicans, etc don't practice beheading. This is true... Yes must feel sorry for the salt of the earth types; they behead people (even their own) because no doubt of some oil deal the US made...never mind most of them have never seen an American, many simply hate because it is what the Wahabbist Madrassahs apparently teach them to do. Is this true (I've not been in a madrassah, but have to admit I am suspicious of some)? I don't know. The massive media coverage in favor of the "freedom fighters" (which apparently now means people from anywhere who come to lop heads, not just Afghans or Iraqi, etc) even seeps into our ranks sometimes, I understand there were complaints made about how many times the man who beheaded Nick Berg was shot, for instance, never mind that he fired first rather than be captured. Not sure how true this is, of course, but rumor has it there were complaints that they fought back too well. If you can imagine. what a world. As an aside, having had Poland's GROM work with a unit I was in a few years ago, if Poland does send these guys after the murdering "freedom fighters" in question...trust that your men do not play games, and will do an excellent job. We were glad to have them on our side back while they were still here. John P.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 18:54 / #
I hope GROM go in. Yes, there would be repercussions for Poland but so what? It's worth it as retribution. Pakistan was insipid, p*ssy-footing around and not taking decisive action. I'm sorry for the Pakistani poster here but I endorse this action. I firmly believe in not imposing your values on others but when you kill one of Poland's own in such brutal fashion, you deserve everything you get.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 19:47 / #
Go ahead :) If I recall correctly, weren't these soldiers there in the first place to catch a guy? What happened to that?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 19:50 / #
The guy wasn't a soldier, he was a surveyor I think. He worked for a Krakow-based company. Pakistan should be happy. Why does your government reject to Allied troops going in? I know it would be a breach of territorial sovereignty not to ask but we have asked.

Eva_KThreads: 6 Posts: 40 Joined: Sep 18, 08	Edited by: Eva_K Feb 9, 09, 19:53 / #
wola: I don't know why more dedicated genuine muslims dont speak out and enlighten the world to these imposters of their genuine faith. Because the so-called moderates or "enlightened" are the minority in the muslim world. The vast majority of muslims are either illiterate and uneducated - even about the intracacies of their own religion (accepting dictates from Islamic scholars and Imams whom they believe are more capable of understanding their faith than themselves) - or they are sheep following their religious leaders an their tribal betters down whatever path they are led, or they are extremists seeking violence as a way to demonstrate their devotion to Allah (and to what they believe Allah wants). Of course there are many variations beyond that (including atheists!), but those types make up the majority of the muslim world. Travel to places such as Indonesia, the Sudan, Syria, Saudi Arabia and see for yourself. Moderates are the minority and speak out mostly in the safety of ideologically diverse countries such as the USA. These so-called "enlightened" muslims must fear for their safety or even their own lives if they denounce the violence carried out by the extremist elements. In any event they are all muslims - extremist or moderate alike. It's not the place of anyone else to tell any of them who is and who is not a true muslim. As in Christianity, etc. there are different sects of Islam with varying agenda and differing degrees of fanatacism. Being a moderate or an advocate of terrorism doesn't make them imposters and it doesn't make their identities as muslims any less valid.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 20:07 / #
I was talking about OBL, anyways, as you folks might have noticed that nobody is fighting a conventional war over there. There are already 90000 Pakistani troops there, more than 1100 have lost their lives, twice as many as allied forces put together. If it were a conventional war of enemy against enemy in a battlefield, don't you think that 90000 is a number big enough to defeat estimated 20000 militants (20000 is on the high end)? Although I dont like where this discussion is heading towards but still I'll try to be unbiased. Back in 2001, when our dictator decided to give in to "with us or against us" rhetoric, Pakistanis had a mixed opinion. Some of them thought there was no harm in doing that and he did the right thing, some others were opposing it, however they also had soft opinions and didn't result it any mass protests or agitation. Matters got worse when in 2004 when Pakistan military for the first time in history entered tribal areas and yet worse when US drones started attacking. Before 2004 there was not a single suicide bombing in the country, since then we have lost thousands of innocent lives. My point -> plain old fist fight is not going to solve anything, as long as they (the militants) can find people who have lost their livelihoods because of this war and those who are victims of the war, they won't have trouble recruiting new people. If things go the way they are going, I can see the 2012 presidential candidate campaigning for "bring back the troops from Afghanistan".

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: MrBubbles Feb 9, 09, 20:12 / #
nrx: Before 2004 there was not a single suicide bombing in the country, since then we have lost thousands of innocent lives. And what have we learned from this? Nothing. The way forward is by winning hearts and minds, not my flexing our muscles and trying to intimidate a people who are tough enough to call any bluff the west can put up. Eva_K: A lot of time in Islamic countries. Ha ha. I'm calling bullshit on this one. What about indonisia? Something like a third of the world's Muslims live there and you never hear a peep out of them. They just get on with things alnogside the Christians and Buddhists. ShelleyS: Never going to happen G - LOL they cant even convict British "born" Pakistanis who are caught with tapes inciting hate and talking of beheading people, do you honestly think they are going to catch these bastards who live in Pakistan? I never knew posessing a tape of something was a crime, Shelley. If you fee so strongly why not pick up a gun, go to the Middle East and sort them out yourself. Internet Rambos eh? plk123: they are so tolerant. the muslims would be amazed ain't it the truth

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 20:13 / #
Exactly right. Then the terrorists will claim a moral victory. Withdrawal proves what, that the strategy failed? Or that they killed some militants but brought the hornets out of their nest? The fact is that there needs to be an overseeing role. They need regional influence to solidify their position. They will not withdraw for a long time. What will it take for the new Pakistani leader to allow Allied troops to get to where they need to be?

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08	Edited by: Babinich Feb 9, 09, 20:24 / #
McCoy: I read the Sienkiewicz trilogy; I know exactly where your coming from.

nrxThreads: 1 Posts: 42 Joined: Feb 8, 09	Feb 9, 09, 20:28 / #
Ok this is getting interesting now. You all felt for your Polish countryman right? If it was upto you, you would take the honor of beheading them and playing football with their heads. You feel angry and frustrated over his killing although noone here claims to know him personally. Now apply the same logic to all those innocent people who are losing their lives in vain. How do their immediate family members feel? Don't they feel like tying up a bomb to their bellies and just blow the crap out of whoever did it? Well thats exactly whats going on. If you kill one terrorist and one civilian you have probably created 5 more in the process. As for the solution, the foremost is money. As I mentioned in my post earlier that not all taliban have the same level of commitment to the war, just buy out the ones that represent B and C companies cuz they are doing it just to feed their families. They have no other ideological agenda. Pakistan army is already engaging with the locals to pursuade them against the enemy but they complain about false promises with no results. If the militants have a bit of local support left thats because the locals have no faith in their own government. No roads no hospitals no schools. What do you expect from them? They don't even feel Pakistani cuz us "mainland" Pakistanis find them as exotic as you guys do. They needed to be integrated into the society on their terms and conditions, not by force. You need a pen to educate not a gun.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 9, 09, 20:34 / #
Well, he's not my countryman but nobody deserves to be beheaded, especially an innocent worker. I wouldn't behead back, no. Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't you feel angry towards America, nrx? They brought the Taliban out of hiding and have wreaked havoc. Would you rather that they didn't go in? The Pakistani army seems puny, nrx. They could outnumber the Taliban 4:1 and still lose. They are afraid and strike bargains the whole time. What good is that?

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,049 Joined: May 26, 08	Feb 9, 09, 20:35 / #
nrx: You all felt for your Polish countryman right? If it was upto you, you would take the honor of beheading them and playing football with their heads. You feel angry and frustrated over his killing although noone here claims to know him personally. I, according to some on this board, happen to be a plastic Pole. What I feel is sadness because a son is deprived a father. What I want is justice.