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Polish vs russian economy


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southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,950
Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Aug 3, 08, 03:08 /  #
Which one is stronger?
BabinichThreads: 1
Posts: 1,054
Joined: May 26, 08  Pictures: 1 		  Aug 3, 08, 04:49 /  #
Depends on your definition of "stronger".

If your definition is Gross Domestic Product (GDP), the market value of all final goods and services from a nation in a given year, then the answer (as of 2007) would be Russia.
szkotja2007Threads: 38
Posts: 2,544
Joined: Dec 29, 06 		  Aug 3, 08, 04:52 /  #
If anyone can explain how to prove if one economy is stronger than another in less than 1000 words on this forum I would be very surprised !
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
Posts: 6,213
Joined: Nov 16, 06 		  Aug 3, 08, 05:20 /  #
southern:
Which one is stronger?


Russian of course.
Dupek StupakThreads: 4
Posts: 81
Joined: Jul 22, 08 		  Aug 3, 08, 08:28 /  #
Grzegorz_:
Russian of course.


Until the war with China starts. And if Russia's in such great shape, why does the average Russian man DIE at age 47???
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Crow   Aug 3, 08, 09:55 /  #
Polish vs russian economy

question (answer) is in the sphera of economic `science fiction`, considering enormous Russian resources

Even if you put `EU vs Russian economy`, i could tell you same but, in case of such a disscusion, it would be worth to mention good Russian-Chinese-Indian... relations as extra argument why Russian economy has bigger potential.

Dupek Stupak:
Until the war with China starts.

that war isn`t logical from the Russian and Chinese point of view. It would be suicide for both of them. Only so called west would profit from that development. China and Russia (Slavs) are old civilizations and won`t make that mistake. They coexist since time immemorial. Forget on that.

Dupek Stupak:
And if Russia's in such great shape, why does the average Russian man DIE at age 47???

there are effects in scientific economy which suggest `retro effects` which means that you need twice as longer period of economic expansion then it was period of crisis, to fully expirience all benefits from rising economy. That is case with Russia today. Crisis is over and their economy flow in dirrection of new `pick`, full economic contraction (to say, full potential). While history accelerates on all fields and while Russia has above average natuaral potentials (scientific economy didn`t sow similar example), we can only imagine where are Russian limits. What once was USA (speaking of economic potential) tomorrow would be Russia. This time, i hope, Russia would prosper on the behalf of complete Slavic world/civilization.
Dupek StupakThreads: 4
Posts: 81
Joined: Jul 22, 08 		  Aug 3, 08, 10:27 /  #
Crow:
What once was USA (speaking of economic potential) tomorrow would be Russia. This time, i hope, Russia would prosper


So, Russia will eventually prosper...? Perhaps. Russians are presently in the American-style 'robber baron' phase.

And the worm has turned. We have Marxist radicals in control of our government. America is now the new USSR.
BorrkaThreads: 49
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Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Aug 3, 08, 11:23 /  #
What's Good for the Mafia Is Good for Russia.

And that's all I can say about Russian economy.

Poland ... just a poor communism devastated country trying to catch up with the West.
Krazy KajuThreads: 3
Posts: 67
Joined: May 12, 07 		  Aug 3, 08, 20:03 /  #
The Polish economy is much stronger. It's not plagued by crime, nationalization, and too many regulations.

The Russian economy is huge, though it is much weaker per capita.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Aug 3, 08, 20:14 /  #
szkotja2007:
If anyone can explain how to prove if one economy is stronger than another in less than 1000 words on this forum I would be very surprised !


You only need two words actually: "Selling Stuff"

The more and different stuff other people wants to buy from you the more money you get back which you then can put back into the production process and/or into the state to make it better/wealthier!

Sometimes countries get rich selling stuff they don't work for like oil or gas which is surely enviable but they never learned how to invent, develop, produce and in the end sell their own homemade stuff...so once their good luck runs out they are only poor sods.

Just look around...countries which are able to attract paying customers are usually well off!

(But of course it's not the only factor - but once you get something to earn your money with it's a good start, for your own and also for your countries economy!)
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 		  Aug 3, 08, 20:31 /  #
Kinda hard to compare the two economies.
One might argue that Russia doesn't have economy at all. They have oil and gas. Take the oil away and what are we left with? Russia then, is a resource country just like Saudi Arabia or Nigeria. OK, maybe the comparison is not really good. After all Russia has an aspect to its economy that Nigeria is interested in - weapons.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Crow   Aug 4, 08, 14:02 /  #
Borrka:
What's Good for the Mafia Is Good for Russia.

you forgot that USA also had that phase

Borrka:
And that's all I can say about Russian economy.

that`s more then nothing

Borrka:
Poland ... just a poor communism devastated country trying to catch up with the West.

no, Poland is more then that

Krazy Kaju:
It's not plagued by crime, nationalization, and too many regulations.

Polish economy is dependant on EU

Krazy Kaju:
The Russian economy is huge,

yes

Krazy Kaju:
though it is much weaker per capita.

still
Krazy KajuThreads: 3
Posts: 67
Joined: May 12, 07 		  Aug 4, 08, 14:03 /  #
szkotja2007:
If anyone can explain how to prove if one economy is stronger than another in less than 1000 words on this forum I would be very surprised !


Ever heard of this magical thing called GDP?
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		  Aug 4, 08, 14:22 /  #
Dose economy means something in retrospective? We can destroy all your small achievements by only one strike. What would you say then?
Krazy KajuThreads: 3
Posts: 67
Joined: May 12, 07 		  Aug 4, 08, 15:30 /  #
^ What are you talking about?
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Aug 4, 08, 16:58 /  #
They are going to stop exports of Matrishkas to Poland.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Crow   Aug 4, 08, 18:25 /  #
ConstantineK:

Dose economy means something in retrospective? We can destroy all your small achievements by only one strike. What would you say then?

Why you speak that way with Poles here?

Go destroy German, British, Franch or USA economy. I see only their troops on Kosovo. Russian troops retreated and Serbians buying time to them. If so, at least don`t spit on Poles. Spit on any politician... Polish, even Serbian. We can spit togather.

Just spit a little on Russian politicians too, will you? Will you? Just a little
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		Edited by: ConstantineK   Aug 5, 08, 05:18 /  #
Borrka:

They are going to stop exports of Matrishkas to Poland.


Ha-Ha, just give us a little time to accomplish NordStream, and then we will laugh about "Matreshkas" and how they are related with gas supplies in winter times.

Crow:

Why you speak that way with Poles here?


Exactly, becase they are Poles and they don't love us
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		Edited by: Borrka   Aug 5, 08, 07:23 /  #
Dear friend you are obviously overestimating the importance of the Russian gas to us.
Polish energetic and industry are coal driven what perhaps is not good for environment but perfect in case of emergency you've described.
To make the long story short - we will survive without your gas but you not without gas sales to the EU.
Are you going to eat Siberian pine cones ?
Priyatnovo apetita then.

And ... forgive me negative attitude towards your bold plans ... I don't believe you will be ever able to accomplish the Nord Stream.

So better do your best with exports of matrioshkas and balalaykas.
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		  Aug 5, 08, 07:43 /  #
Borrka:

To make the long story short - we will survive without your gas but you not without gas sales to the EU.


Of course you wil! We are not beast to cut gas knowing that it might be a trigger for humanitarian disaster, but....
But I don't exactly know, but I think that the cooking on the coal "driven" kitchen-range is not vere interesting occupation... Also I know abou chemical composition of your coal (through my profession), it contains very much of sulfur. Burning it produces alot of poisonous sulfur dioxide, so I think that EU wouldn't permit you to use your coal in full scale. Meanwhile, Poland is too small for russian gas to be a significant market...Poland is not yet all Europe, or you think that Germany will be united with you in mad attempt to replace gas on coal? I don't think so!
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Aug 5, 08, 07:56 /  #
ConstantineK:

cooking on the coal "driven" kitchen


Are you still in the Middle Ages in Russia ?
We are cooking on electric burners.

Then my friend the true source of sulfur is Russian low quality oil - we have to get rid of it ASAP.
And the EU has to deal with Polish-Russian problems or to accept high CO2 emission (what is a real problem with coal).
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		Edited by: ConstantineK   Aug 5, 08, 08:09 /  #
Borrka:

Are you still in the Middle Ages in Russia ?
We are cooking on electric burners.


Mmmm!? Thank God they are not thermonuclear

Borrka:

Russian low quality oil - we have to get rid of it ASAP


In favor of ecological sources? Wind I suppose? I just see this slogan - "Polish wind driven cars". Don't you think it is amazing?

Borrka:

And the EU has to deal with Polish-Russian problems or to accept high CO2 emission (what is a real problem with coal).


And one day all Poland will dissapiar in one huge pit
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		Edited by: Borrka   Aug 5, 08, 08:18 /  #
ConstantineK:

I favor of ecological sources?


In favour of Light Arabian

ConstantineK:
And one day all Poland will dissapiar in one huge pit


The South of Poland only and I'm living in Warsaw.
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		Edited by: ConstantineK   Aug 5, 08, 08:25 /  #
Borrka:

In favour of Light Arabian


What? coffe? I am suggesting you to build a pipe from Saudi through Russian territory, thus we will change our roles at last

Borrka:

The South od Poland only and I'm living in Warsaw.


Ok, it will be an island of blossomed europe with electrical ovens among the sea of smudgy miners...
ParisJazzThreads: 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Oct 23, 07 		  Aug 5, 08, 09:23 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

szkotja2007:
If anyone can explain how to prove if one economy is stronger than another in less than 1000 words on this forum I would be very surprised !


You only need two words actually: "Selling Stuff"



That's a fallacy and a common misconception. This has also been the official German dogma of a strong economy since the 50ies, i.e. having a positive balance of payment.

Suffices to say that, for instance, the UK hardly sells anything tangible, yet attracts much more capital than Germany. Likewise, the US which is chronically racking up huge deficits in balance of payments, attracts more FDI than any other country. There is a good reason for that: those two economies are much more dynamic and offer better return on investment than the rigid German one.

Given that you are a notorious Germanophile, no wonder you state such a view.


southern:

Which one is stronger?


The question doesn't make sense. It is like asking which is the happiest of the two populations.

As the proverbial "you can drown in a river that is a foot deep on average" goes, GDP per capita, average this and that are mere statistical tools and mean nothing on a individual basis.

Can you actually describe how a "a solid 4% 2nd Quarter growth" feels like for the average Joe? of course u cant. GDP and the like are mere tools for politicians to keep fooling their subjects that they are actually doing something.

You need to look at the question from an individual perspective. Take a Pole and a Ruski at random and see who is wealthier, according to their own conception of wealth, and who is the more successful in his own pursuit of happiness. Whatever conclusion u'll come to, will only apply to that specific case.


PJ
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Aug 5, 08, 10:29 /  #
ParisJazz:

Given that you are a notorious Germanophile, no wonder you state such a view.


I'm a German and proud to be a Germanophile! :)

But what's important is that in your small life (earning money) is important in the big economy too!
Nothing wrong with that! People and countries which have things to sell and services to offer earn money and are therefore better off than those who don't.

ParisJazz:

Suffices to say that, for instance, the UK hardly sells anything tangible, yet attracts much more capital than Germany


It doesn't have to be something "tangible"...services are being paid to.
How many of your family and friends actually produce something? But many of them sell their services and get paid because.

ParisJazz:

That's a fallacy and a common misconception.


Nope....that's pure logic! Sorry you don't like it...

PS: In my personal opinion the economy more concentrated and build on "tangible" products is healthier than those build on services like money banking etc.
ParisJazzThreads: 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Oct 23, 07 		  Aug 5, 08, 10:49 /  #
your statement was ambiguous to say the least. You seemed to imply that, as I said before, the larger the balance of payment, the stronger the economy. I pointed out that's a fallacy.

Bratwurst Boy:

Nothing wrong with that! People and countries which have things to sell earn money and are better off than those who don't....pure logic!



Saying that u need to sell stuff to be better off is fairly trivial and there aint much to say about that.

What people trade are good and services. Obviously the more goods and services they trade the better off they are. However, humans cant work on endlesslyy piling on goods. Each individual tends to work a certain amount of hours per day after which leisure time becomes more valuable to him than actually producing goods. Hence, saying that the actual amount of goods and services is the only valid criteria for measuring an economy is nonsense. As you may have by now guessed, productivity is another obvious criteria. If you r smart enough to produce the same amount of goods in about half the time it would take a dumb competitor, u r obviously better off economically speaking.


PJ
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Aug 5, 08, 11:12 /  #
ParisJazz:

As you may have by now guessed, productivity is another obvious criteria. If you r smart enough to produce the same amount of goods in about half the time it would take a dumb competitor, u r obviously better off economically speaking.


Agreed!

And the main reason stands...to be a strong economy you NEED to sell things! Believe it or not it's that easy!
Now...a healthy balance (earning more than giving out, productivity etc) are important to but come only into play if you have to sell something and earn something in the first place!

Remember Scotja wanted to have a short explanation in few words what makes a strong economy and "selling things" is the core.
Without being able to "sell things" you can forget about all the little fineries..
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		Edited by: osiol   Aug 5, 08, 11:30 /  #
Crow:

China and Russia (Slavs) are old civilizations and won`t make that mistake. They coexist since time immemorial.

Chinese civilisation is older. Russian civilisation is quite old,I'll give you that much. Russia and China have not co-existed since time immemorial. Until very recent times, there have been plenty of other people in the vast area of land in between - Mongols, Turkic peoples and so on.

There are plenty of resources in that huge mass of land we typically only know of as Siberia, and Russia has that land. I can't imagine Russia being willing to let go of it. War certainly isn't the answer, but things are almost certain to get more complicated between the two countries. China may well become economically capable of not needing political power there in order to get it's hands on such resources - minerals, oil and so on.

While I'm typing this stuff to Mr. Crow, can I suggest that Russians aren't really the most Slavic of Slavs?
ParisJazzThreads: 2
Posts: 196
Joined: Oct 23, 07 		  Aug 5, 08, 11:58 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

And the main reason stands...to be a strong economy you NEED to sell things! Believe it or not it's that easy!



That's overly simplistic and bordering on the naive, but I'll leave it there.


PJ
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