PUTIN'S LETTER HAILED BY TUSK GOVT

Bratwurst Boy:

...Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact signed a week before Germany's 1939 invasion of Poland as "immoral".

In a piece for the Polish paper Gazeta Wyborcza, he also expressed sorrow for a Soviet massacre of Poles in 1940. ...

So....what more could Poland possible want?

Bratwurst Boy:

jwojcie:
I think that luckily polish politicians didn't get in this usual russian trap...
What trap?

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Aug 31, 09, 15:21 / #
In accordance with the good cop/bad cop tactic, of which Putin's KGB made extensive use, Putin's letter to Poles was much more subdued than some of the rants we have been hearing for weeks. A ranking representative of Tusk's Civic Platform (party) dubbed it an expression of Russian goodwill. (?*!) I have my doubts. What do you think? http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,6984528,Halicki_o_lisci e_Putina__deklaracja_wynikajaca_z_dobrej.html

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Aug 31, 09, 16:01 / #
I think that luckily polish politicians didn't get in this usual russian trap... We can rant all we want on Putin on internet blogs but in the end on CNN and all others global networks it will be Putin speech not Tusk or Merkel... Putin would be in heaven if he could defend poor Soviet Union in "russophobic" Poland... We shouldn't give him this gift. This is international event and is not about who is right but which voice will be heard better. And what kind of message will be sent. It is not about history, it is about current politics.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 31, 09, 16:17 / #
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8230387.stm ...Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact signed a week before Germany's 1939 invasion of Poland as "immoral". In a piece for the Polish paper Gazeta Wyborcza, he also expressed sorrow for a Soviet massacre of Poles in 1940. ... So....what more could Poland possible want? jwojcie: I think that luckily polish politicians didn't get in this usual russian trap... What trap?

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Aug 31, 09, 16:43 / #
Bratwurst Boy: ...Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact signed a week before Germany's 1939 invasion of Poland as "immoral". In a piece for the Polish paper Gazeta Wyborcza, he also expressed sorrow for a Soviet massacre of Poles in 1940. ... So....what more could Poland possible want? That is huge step forward. The problem is that few days ago Medvediev said in Russian TV something slightly different. They are saying different thing inside and outside Russia. Bratwurst Boy: jwojcie: I think that luckily polish politicians didn't get in this usual russian trap... What trap? Usual trap is, that before any Polish-Russian meeting on high level in Russian state owned media there is kind off "artillery fire" preparation with quite grotesque historical views from some grotesque russian historics. Atmosphere is getting tens. Some polish politicians don't get it, and ranting starts... In the end Russian top politics (which usually don't get involved) becoming victims of "polish russophobia"... Off course in western media you can only see short articles without background. Ergo Poland is seen as russophobic... This time, polish politicians where quite resilient, so this usual russian "artillery fire" was much heavier. It started in newspapers, it did not do the job. Next was Russian TV. Next, Russian counter-inteligence agency accused Polish Foreign Minister in 1939 of being German spy... Well it obviously was getting surreal at this point (I think I don't have to tell you that they base this accusation on secret files, which of course are secret so nobody can check them...). And after all this Putin generously wrote that Nazi-Soviet pact was immoral. Great, but why he didn't said it in Russian TV ? In the end, I have no problem with things Putin wrote to me as a Pole, because I know history of my country and I don't need him to tell me that part of this pact was immoral. I have problem with things that are in Russian history school books.

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Sep 1, 09, 05:13 / #
Bratwurst Boy: ..Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has condemned the Nazi-Soviet pact signed a week before Germany's 1939 invasion of Poland as "immoral". In a piece for the Polish paper Gazeta Wyborcza, he also expressed sorrow for a Soviet massacre of Poles in 1940. To be honest I was pleasantly surprised when heard that on radio. I thought he wouldn't dare put it this way. jwojcie The aforesaid was said inside of Russia and many are happy about that. I think it's a step forth... maybe tiny yet forward.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Sep 1, 09, 11:13 / #
Sasha: jwojcie The aforesaid was said inside of Russia and many are happy about that. I think it's a step forth... maybe tiny yet forward. That is good, let's hope that there will be no step back. Because from some reason in last years Russian-Polish relations are rounding in circles...

JulietEchoThreads: 3 Posts: 129 Joined: Jul 14, 08	Sep 1, 09, 23:32 / #
Bratwurst Boy: So....what more could Poland possible want? - Katyn massacre is still an unresolved issue. Other than that I think that Putin finally broke the ice of political ignorance of both countries in regards to each other. I would take that as a gesture of good will. Obama's timing in ignoring this event clicks in perfectly with Putin's opening; Im contemplating if this was agreed upon Obma's trip to Russia. A good word has also be said towards Merkel and Germans overall. Merkel, once again, has shown that she is a politician of a great caliber by not interfering with Polish-Russian interpretation of history and to Germans for opening the memorial in Leipzig. I hope Polish-German relations will only grow stronger form this point onward and I also hope for normalization of relations between Russia and Poland. Good Day.

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09	Edited by: scrappleton Sep 2, 09, 02:42 / #
JulietEcho: Obama's timing in ignoring this event clicks in perfectly with Putin's opening; Im contemplating if this was agreed upon Obma's trip to Russia. Aww Jeez, here we go: US and Russia are in kahoots to snub Poles? :-7 That really takes the cake. Sarkozy didn't go, Brown...and they're in the damn EU! I think Obama should have gone but there was nothing insidious going on.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Sep 2, 09, 10:30 / #
scrappleton: I think Obama should have gone but there was nothing insidious going on. Oh, I think that in a sense JulietEcho is right. Upon Obma's trip to Russia they had confirmed that "the shield" project is halted. So there was no bussiness in Poland for Obama...

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09	Sep 2, 09, 10:48 / #
jwojcie: Upon Obma's trip to Russia they had confirmed that "the shield" project is halted. Is that such a horrible scenario? The US can't even afford some fancy fireworks at this juncture. We screw up stuff in Central America how can we navigate Central Europe? Lech, Tusk and Uncle Vlad should do some fly fishing together. If he gets drunk and wants to fight.. Germany and France are right there.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Sep 3, 09, 11:29 / #
scrappleton: Is that such a horrible scenario? Well, I didn't try to asses "the project" itself. I've just pointed at USA way of looking at things. "If there is deal to make we go, otherwise we don't". For me Obama's absence is irrelevant in emotional sense. It just confirmed that "the shield" in Poland is at least halted. Do we need "the shield"? There is one big thread about it somewhere. Let me just say that for me it was bussiness too, because this shield wasn't for our protection, well we would become a shield :-) Few patriots was a bargain for USA. I guess that war in Afghanistan and route through Russia is currently much more important for USA than "the shield"... Well, looking at the way Europe and Poland is changing next try will be more expensive for USA.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 3, 09, 19:54 / #
I'd always be careful with Putin although Poland has to cautiously try to work with him. At least he isn't trying to cut deals with the Poles like Bush was. Putin is stubborn and will relentlessly pursue what he wants. Look at Chechnya for evidence of this. If at first you don't succeed.....

scrappletonThreads: - Posts: 1,365 Joined: Apr 28, 09	Sep 3, 09, 21:03 / #
jwojcie: I guess that war in Afghanistan and route through Russia is currently much more important for USA than "the shield".. Keeping Russia as an ally is important too. You might try and work with them sometime instead of being eternally aggrieved. If you look around you might come to understand many nations suffered during WWII.. some are moving on too. jwojcie: Well, looking at the way Europe and Poland is changing next try will be more expensive for USA. Next time for what? And nothing, I mean absolutely nothing about Europe is ever cheap.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Sep 3, 09, 23:05 / #
Sokrates: Amusingly enough its much more important for Russia to have good relations with us then the other way around, Russia remains only a tiny part of our export and we still are a large importer and a transit country so fvcking with us will eventually hurt them plenty. Well... :-) as a fellow Pole my advice for you Sokrates is: step 1. take off from the wall this map of central Europe from XVI century, which you evidently have step 2. put on map of modern world step 3. put pin in place where Poland is (you will probably manage to cover all of our great land with single pin) step 4. take few steps back, take dip breath, look at this map and come to terms with our current position, where Poland definitely is not the hub of the universe :-) This simple process will probably allow you to stop writing things like: Sokrates: Amusingly enough its much more important for Russia to have good relations with us then the other way around because sincerely, although I am a Polish, patriot, etc. I had almost died from laughing... ;-)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Sep 3, 09, 21:14 / #
Bratwurst Boy: So....what more could Poland possible want? For Russia to stop f*cking with us and start being a responsible partner, Germany managed it. Apart from our political wh0res the majority of the establishment does business with Russia only because its neccesary, no one takes Russians seriously anymore, eventually Russia will want to improve relations and no one will be interested. Amusingly enough its much more important for Russia to have good relations with us then the other way around, Russia remains only a tiny part of our export and we still are a large importer and a transit country so fvcking with us will eventually hurt them plenty.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 816 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Sep 3, 09, 23:30 / #
scrappleton: You might try and work with them sometime instead of being eternally aggrieved. If you look around you might come to understand many nations suffered during WWII.. some are moving on too. Scrappleton, you are putting your emotions on the wrong person :-) I won't deny that there is much antirussian sentiment in Poland but, before Putin era it was more antikremlin than antirussian. What is more important in my opinion you are confusing reasons with results. On political level first was political clash over election in Ukraine, and only afer that historical issues once again came to top politics... All this historical fog, especially in recent Kremlin driven publications is only useful tool in geopolitical wrestling over Eastern Europe. scrappleton: jwojcie: Next time for what? Hm.. it is question you should rather ask to USA goverment. It was their idea that this shield must be exactly in that place because <military tech. bla bla bla>. If so there wasn't more eager premier in Poland to make that deal than Kaczynski. It was a bargain for USA, and if this shield in that place is really something USA need, then USA (probably) ruin it together with reputation of reliable business partner...

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Sep 21, 09, 17:59 / #
good. russians were put in a bad spot by bush's missile shield.. since that's gone, they don't have to posture as much.. i still don't trust those rascals but at least maybe things will warm up a bit.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 21, 09, 22:56 / #
There is a concept called sustainable development in the EU. It essentially guides environmental policy but its principles can be applied multifariously. I think Tusk needs to work on creating this with Putin. Individual letters serve as token gestures and actions speak louder than words. It can express the sentiment of that particular moment but Poland needs more than soundbites. Tusk's achilles heel is his ostensible naivety. My main view is that there just isn't enough cooperation at the present time to warrant unbridled enthusiasm and optimism.