Russia opens archives and Poland demands minority rights from Germany

In Artikel 20 und 21 des Deutsch-Polnischen Nachbarschaftsvertrages vom 17. Juni 1991 verpflichten sich beide Länder, die Rechte der in ihren Staatsgebieten ansässigen Personen der jeweils anderen Nationalität zu respektieren:

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Als im Zuge der sich anbahnenden Deutschen Wiedervereinigung 1990 insbesondere in Polen die Sorge wuchs, das vereinigte Deutschland könne eine Revision der deutschen Ostgrenzen fordern, verlangten die vier Siegermächte als Voraussetzung für ihre Zustimmung zur Deutschen Einheit die endgültige Anerkennung der Oder-Neiße-Grenze als rechtmäßige Staatsgrenze zwischen Deutschland und Polen.
Diese Anerkennung wurde im Zwei-plus-Vier-Vertrag verankert und im deutsch-polnischen Grenzvertrag vom 14. November 1990 in einem völkerrechtlichen Vertrag bekräftigt.
Durch diesen am 16. Januar 1992 in Kraft getretenen Vertrag gab die Bundesrepublik Deutschland alle Ansprüche auf die Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reiches auf, die östlich dieser Linie lagen und seitdem auch völkerrechtlich zu Polen gehören.

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09	Edited by: Ksysia Aug 25, 09, 12:56 / #
And all that in one Rzeczpospolita. http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,353765.html http://www.rp.pl/artykul/2,353564_Czy_niemiecka_Polonia_odzyska_prawa_ mniejszosci.html Basically, Poland demands that the 1940 law in Germany that ordered Polish minority organisations to be banned and the properties confiscated, be renounced. That's the western border. On the eastern border, Russia opens the archives to look at Polish politics during the war. My opinion: I kinda thought that we had already solved the minority agreements with Germany, during the time when Kwaśniewski was the President, or earlier. We have a border agreement, so I had thought it must have followed. But apparently not, and it's good that it's being done. I really want to learn what is in the Russian archives, but I also want to learn what is in the British ones. The game was far bigger that poor little Poland, even though we like to see ourselves as the centre of the world. Maybe that can cast some light on what happened. Why Poland refused to attack Russia, even though 20 years before we had an open war? Why did Hitler like Piłsudski and give him an official funeral with honours? Why the Polish Military in Britain had not aided the Polish resistance in Poland? Why France suggested to Poland not to buy arms and call the conscription, and why was France obeyed? I suppose that we will also learn more about the Soviet POW's who died of hunger in Poland. While this is most unfortunate, we weren't well provided for, too, and I hope that is remembered. But if they bring it up, we need to be very noble and gracious in order not to confirm what the Westerners say all the time, that it's we who are nation of angry peasant Anti-Semitism. And it WILL get used, so brace yourselves.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 25, 09, 15:12 / #
This paper (and others) needs an english section (like Der Spiegel). Would help neighbours to understand what's going on in these lands... Ksysia: But apparently not, and it's good that it's being done. 1.) There IS a minority agreement already: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polen_in_Deutschland In Artikel 20 und 21 des Deutsch-Polnischen Nachbarschaftsvertrages vom 17. Juni 1991 verpflichten sich beide Länder, die Rechte der in ihren Staatsgebieten ansässigen Personen der jeweils anderen Nationalität zu respektieren: Which is respected. 2.) The border-issue was already done during the negotiations about the german re-unification: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder-Nei%C3%9Fe-Grenze ... Als im Zuge der sich anbahnenden Deutschen Wiedervereinigung 1990 insbesondere in Polen die Sorge wuchs, das vereinigte Deutschland könne eine Revision der deutschen Ostgrenzen fordern, verlangten die vier Siegermächte als Voraussetzung für ihre Zustimmung zur Deutschen Einheit die endgültige Anerkennung der Oder-Neiße-Grenze als rechtmäßige Staatsgrenze zwischen Deutschland und Polen. Diese Anerkennung wurde im Zwei-plus-Vier-Vertrag verankert und im deutsch-polnischen Grenzvertrag vom 14. November 1990 in einem völkerrechtlichen Vertrag bekräftigt. Durch diesen am 16. Januar 1992 in Kraft getretenen Vertrag gab die Bundesrepublik Deutschland alle Ansprüche auf die Ostgebiete des Deutschen Reiches auf, die östlich dieser Linie lagen und seitdem auch völkerrechtlich zu Polen gehören. Which is respected also... I wonder why this paper wants to stir up useless trouble again?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 25, 09, 17:55 / #
Bratwurst Boy: This paper (and others) needs an english section (like Der Spiegel). Would help neighbours to understand what's going on in these lands... The paper is being owned by a Jewish communist who openly supported Gross' heavily anti-Polish book, i wouldnt its a big newspaper but not necceserily reflecting nationwide views. Bratwurst Boy: I wonder why this paper wants to stir up useless trouble again? Becasue Michnik (the guy who owns it) has an agenda, i'm not sure who's proxy he is but for years now the newspaper act like our forum Harry, except in softcore version. One theory i have is that he's associating with post-communist Jewry in Russia, if he's a Russian proxy or just a post-commie Jews proxy he wouldnt like to see Polish-German reconciliation which is obviously bad for Russia who doesnt like EU as such as Poland-Germany is one of the oldest strains here, if it gets fixed entire Eastern Europe falls into German-Polish influence. Ksysia: I kinda thought that we had already solved the minority agreements We did solve it, it is honored, Rzeczpospolita is trolling like always.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 25, 09, 18:29 / #
Sokrates: Becasue Michnik (the guy who owns it) has an agenda You really are remarkably full of sh!t. Rzeczpospolita is owned by Presspublica S.A. Orkla Media own 51% of Presspublica, the remaining 49% is owned by the Polish government. Michnik has nothing to do with it. But why let the facts get in the way of another opportunity to engage in a bit of anti-semitism? You never normally do.

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09	Aug 25, 09, 19:34 / #
Rzeczpospolita is not the same as GazWyb. But if it is as BB and you say, that we already have agreements in place, then I can see the issue as a response to the Steinbach issue. I wonder what about it. If this is as I now think then it must mean that our politics is becoming Western. That has to be bad. I would prefer to stay on the straight and narrow - but of course that does not work with the USA (offset F16 etc.) Harry: But why let the facts get in the way of another opportunity to engage in a bit of anti-semitism? You never normally do. You are probably looking through Western eyes, Harry. From my point of view my many nations had always fought and quarrelled, so I see no reason to exclude the Jews. People had their own newspapers, their own football teams. Competitive taunting is still in today. Polish Catholics were one of the many nations of this land - sadly not today. Stalin had changed that.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 25, 09, 19:52 / #
Ksysia: Rzeczpospolita is not the same as GazWyb. Crap i was thinking Wyborcza and writing Rzeczpospolita... But the point still stands, someone is proxying for people who would not like Polish-German reconciliation. Ksysia: then I can see the issue as a response to the Steinbach issue. Steinbach is an anti-Polish populist and opportunist, she's suspected of sympathizing with neo-nazis, she was against Poland joining NATO and EU, do you really expect she's interested in any arguments Poles might forward?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 25, 09, 20:00 / #
Sokrates: Crap i was thinking Wyborcza and writing Rzeczpospolita... Bullsh*t. You didn't even write the word Rzeczpospolita anywhere in your post. Why not simply admit that you got caught telling anti-semitic lies yet again? Either that or just crawl back under the rock you came out from under.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Aug 25, 09, 21:24 / #
Hitler suppressed Polish minority rights in Germany. Before this event Poles in Germany had the same miniority rights like for example Danes... Now German miniority in Poland has its rights like other miniorities in Poland and Polish miniority doesn't have such in Germany. So Poland should suppress German minority rights in Poland or Germany should make Hitlers decisions not valid and make Polish minority equal to Sorb or Danish miniority. As to Russian archives it is going to be something interesting but of course Russians will show what they want to show.

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09	Aug 25, 09, 21:25 / #
Harry: telling anti-semitic lies I'm sorry - what Anti-Semitic lies? Michnik is not hiding his Jewish background, so aren't others. In a country of such a big Jewish minority, and nowadays half-Jewish minority, a radiostation (http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/default.aspx?c=13), newspapers like Midrasz and Gazeta Wyborcza etc are normal. It is only surprising that this particular daily has gained such popularity, while the members still retain ties to the People's Republic and the Party Inheritrix. This isn't the only problem with the media market today. A large investment by the Axel-Springer group means that the media in Poland, especially the local ones, now belong abroad. There is a general feeling that we are fed a foreign version of history and politics. It would not have been so if the foreign proprietorship were limited to a few titles, engaging in a dialogue or a big mouth-off. But of course during the systems being changed, many shady deals had been made.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 25, 09, 21:35 / #
Salomon: So Poland should suppress German minority rights in Poland or Germany should make Hitlers decisions not valid and make Polish minority equal to Sorb or Danish miniority. Just expell them... I know you would like to see Poles and Germans having a go at each other again... But that won't happen...look elsewhere for trouble!

TrevekThreads: 33 Posts: 2,155 Joined: May 21, 08	Aug 25, 09, 22:36 / #
Ksysia: Fussball Is that where someone makes a fuss of a load of balls?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Aug 26, 09, 17:45 / #
Harry: Germany did not pay Polish compensation for the Soviets Still as a matter of fact. Hi Harry, Did you miss me?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Aug 25, 09, 21:44 / #
Germany has banned old Polish miniority rights in Hitler times... it is basic fact. You should just make Polish miniority rights equal to German minority rights in Poland... Is it so hard to make this Hitlers decisons not valid ?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 25, 09, 21:47 / #
Yeah....I remembered as I sieghailed the Führer Merkel this morning...

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Aug 25, 09, 21:49 / #
LOL Just remeber your miniority in Poland will be treaten in the same way as Polish in Germany...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 25, 09, 21:55 / #
Remember yourself a'sshole!

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09	Aug 25, 09, 22:21 / #
Bratwurst Boy: But that won't happen...look elsewhere for trouble! C'mon BB, let's have at least Fussball wars ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Aug 25, 09, 22:32 / #
Ksysia: C'mon BB, let's have at least Fussball wars ;) Fussball? You mean where Poles make goals for Germany??? ;) Okay.... I wonder if Poldi and Klose will come out to play for the next european championship in Poland...

KsysiaThreads: 39 Posts: 545 Joined: May 6, 09	Aug 25, 09, 23:10 / #
Bratwurst Boy: You mean where Poles make goals for Germany??? Yeah cus you need good players since you haven't got many ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 25, 09, 23:15 / #
Ksysia: Yeah cus you need good players since you haven't got many ;)

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Aug 25, 09, 23:29 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Remember yourself a'sshole! We will see ... Bratwurst Boy: Just expell them... I am young and I am very interested if I am going to see Turkish Chancelor of Germany or some expulsions (or Final solution like it was with Jews in Germany) ...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Aug 25, 09, 23:32 / #
Maybe he will give you "compensation"!!!

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Aug 25, 09, 23:33 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Maybe he will give you "compensation"!!! The fact that Germany payd Polish compensation for Soviets it is different story ... Anny way - Germany is country without future.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 26, 09, 11:27 / #
Salomon: Germany has banned old Polish miniority rights in Hitler times... it is basic fact. You should just make Polish miniority rights equal to German minority rights in Poland... GTFO you're not even Polish.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 26, 09, 12:14 / #
Ksysia: I'm sorry - what Anti-Semitic lies? Sokrates' 'that paper's lying because a Jewish Communist owns it and he's got an agenda' lie. Salomon: The fact that Germany payd Polish compensation for Soviets it is different story ... Good old Luki! Still banging out the same old pathetic lies. For the four thousandth time, Germany did not pay Polish compensation for the Soviets.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Aug 26, 09, 12:57 / #
Harry: The fact that Germany payd Polish compensation for Soviets it is different story ... This statement doesn't even make sense, so I'm surprised you're even refuting it.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 26, 09, 13:05 / #
1jola: This statement doesn't even make sense, It does make sense, just not in the way that he is claiming. Imagine that Poland was paid compensation by Germany for the actions of the Red Army. Hence we would have "Germany paid Poland compensation for the Soviets". 1jola: so I'm surprised you're even refuting it. I'm not so much refuting the post as pointing out that the poster is a moron.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Aug 26, 09, 17:52 / #
Harry: Good old Luki! Still banging out the same old pathetic lies. For the four thousandth time, Germany did not pay Polish compensation for the Soviets. Yes they have payed for Soviets not for Poland...

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Aug 26, 09, 17:55 / #
Salomon: Yes they have payed for Soviets not for Poland... No Luki, they did not pay for the Soviets. Do try and get your head round this very very simple fact.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Aug 26, 09, 17:59 / #
Harry: they did not pay for the Soviets. Do try and get your head round this very very simple fact. So you feel the victims that have been paid by Germany were just victims of Nazis and none were victims of Soviets?