Senator Brownback uses the phrase "Polish concentration camp"

z_darius:

No laws are automatic. They need to be scrutinized, debated and voted for. That's how democracy works. Some left Poland on their own accord, some were forced. Biographies need to be checked to tell those two groups apart before applicants are granted (not restored) Polish citizenship.

Now, what's really funny, is how some of those who voluntarily, and merrily left Poland (I knew a few of those) want Polish citizenship, now that their promised land turned out to be hell. It really is hilarious how they want to go back to the nation that "sucked antisemitism with mother's milk".

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 13:39 / #
1jola: I'm getting sick of some loser who chose not to serve in the army, I suppose it's better if other men defend you, and then belittle someone who did. Did you choose to serve in the Polish army or did you serve in an army which would have invaded Poland if so ordered? I fail to see how you defended me by standing ready to invade the country I call home. By the way, I did serve in an army thanks. 1jola: You seem to enjoy some favor on this board from the owners as I don't see your posts ending up in the trash. Why is that? It might be because my posts tend to satisfy the forum rules.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Apr 27, 09, 13:45 / #
Harry: By the way, I did serve in an army thanks. Previously you said you hadn't. So, what army have you served in then?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 13:50 / #
1jola: Previously you said you hadn't. So, what army have you served in then? You clearly misunderstood me. I served in the Kuwaiti army.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Apr 27, 09, 14:11 / #
That's too funny Harry. You are the enemy of Israel.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 14:19 / #
1jola: That's too funny Harry. You are the enemy of Israel. I've most certainly never been a friend of Israel.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 14:43 / #
Harry: I've most certainly never been a friend of Israel. Nor in the army, not outside of your basement either :-))

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Apr 27, 09, 15:16 / #
Why you all keep argue with Harry? He need a psychiatric help not incentives to run wild.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 15:27 / #
F*ck! I've fallen for the old bait and switch again! If we are talking about me (which the last eight posts have been about), we aren't talking about what we should be talking about: Poland's concentration camps!

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 15:33 / #
OK, so based on Harry's simple view of the world: Google is a Polish company. Mac Donald's is a Polish company and Israel is really Poland. Not to mention some of the multitude of Polish Nobel Prize winners. Solomon Morel was of course an ethnic Pole, who resided in what is just a Poland's province.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Apr 27, 09, 15:59 / #
Harry: we aren't talking about what we should be talking about: Poland's concentration camps! You would like that. What if we stop playing your obsessive game? Where will that leave you? That is not the subject of this thread; the subject was a senator using language that is defamatory. The discussion would be more productive to ask how can he get away with it. Anyway, let's not feed this troll anymore.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 16:00 / #
Harry: You forget that just as not all Poles were Jews, not all Jews were Poles Yeah, I forgot that :) Harry: Harold Pinter for example is most certainly not Polish. No sh!it. And where did I say he was? Harry: You link to Google Polska Sp. z oo. Google Polska is a Polish company. Yup, still, by your logic google is Polish. It is i Poland. Just like there were concentration camps on the Polish territories. Run by various "-steins" and "-bergs" which of course are typically Polish name endings. Harry: Poland is not Israel. Even though so many of its prime ministers and top military brass were Poles? But Morel and his private camp were Polish :) I'm sure even you know you're full of it, but you're using the age old method - repeat, repeat and then repeat some more. Eventually some will believe the red riding hood was a factual character.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 16:08 / #
z_darius: Even though so many of its prime ministers and top military brass were Poles? Isn't there something in Polish citizenship law about citizenship being taken away from any Pole who volunteers for a foreign army?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Apr 27, 09, 16:21 / #
Harry: Isn't there something in Polish citizenship law about citizenship being taken away from any Pole who volunteers for a foreign army? I heard of no such law in free Poland. Since you brag that you know modern Poland so well you should be aware that Polish citizenship cannot be taken away from a citizen without the citizen's desire to do so. That's right in Poland's Constitution. Those who organized the Israeli army did not volunteer because there was no army to volunteer to. Grey area then. Not sure if there is anything about organizing an army in the Polish law. Once the Israeli army was in place few volunteered. Military service in Israel is compulsory, so volunteering did not, and does not apply here.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 17:32 / #
Harry: Whether they left (voluntarily, merrily or otherwise) or were thrown out has no bearing. It does. If someone volunteers to give up Polish citizenship then for sure, no automatic processes to regain that citizenship would apply. Harry: As you yourself have pointed out, since February 1962, Polish law (including the Constitution) does not allow the government to revoke someone's citizenship. I have pointed no such thing, and this was not even the case in Polish law in 1962. In fact, in 1962 a law was passed which specified a number of reasons why the government could strip a person of Polish citizenship. You link to rules of the year 2000. That may be detail to you but the year 2000 was 38 years after 1962. Harry: should probably remind you that Polish law applies equally to Jews and Christians. Now it does, but this was not always the case. Sometimes, in some aspects, Polish law favored Jews, sometimes it favored Christians. The main problem you have, and so many pointed this out to you, is that you have a theory born out of a mix of ignorance and hatred towards Poles. Once you decide what your theory is then any bit of information you find seems to confirm that theory in your mind, even if in truth it does not. Where a piece of information does not confirm your preconceived views then you consider that information untrue, worthless, or you simply ignore it. You do not see anything between black and white - -gray is not the color you fathom even exists. Yours is a cartoonish mind then, a mind of a simpleton who needs only simple and uncomplicated pictures, or else you are completely lost in the complexity of life, history and human relations.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 16:36 / #
z_darius: Since you brag that you know modern Poland so well you should be aware that Polish citizenship cannot be taken away from a citizen without the citizen's desire to do so. That's right in Poland's Constitution. Funny how modern Poland can not pass legislation to automatically give back citizenship which was stripped from Polish people in the 1960s.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 16:53 / #
Harry: Funny how modern Poland can not pass legislation to automatically give back citizenship which was stripped from Polish people in the 1960s. There is nothing funny about that as Polish law does not have provisions for "giving back" Polish citizenship. Other countries have hugely more restrictive citizenship laws. No laws are automatic. They need to be scrutinized, debated and voted for. That's how democracy works. Some left Poland on their own accord, some were forced. Biographies need to be checked to tell those two groups apart before applicants are granted (not restored) Polish citizenship. Now, what's really funny, is how some of those who voluntarily, and merrily left Poland (I knew a few of those) want Polish citizenship, now that their promised land turned out to be hell. It really is hilarious how they want to go back to the nation that "sucked antisemitism with mother's milk". Something's not adding up here. Pure comedy :)

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 17:07 / #
z_darius: No laws are automatic. They need to be scrutinized, debated and voted for. That's how democracy works. Some left Poland on their own accord, some were forced. Biographies need to be checked to tell those two groups apart before applicants are granted (not restored) Polish citizenship. Now, what's really funny, is how some of those who voluntarily, and merrily left Poland (I knew a few of those) want Polish citizenship, now that their promised land turned out to be hell. It really is hilarious how they want to go back to the nation that "sucked antisemitism with mother's milk". Whether they left (voluntarily, merrily or otherwise) or were thrown out has no bearing. As you yourself have pointed out, since February 1962, Polish law (including the Constitution) does not allow the government to revoke someone's citizenship. Have a look at http://www.abc.com.pl/serwis/du/2000/0231.htm I should probably remind you that Polish law applies equally to Jews and Christians.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 17:42 / #
z_darius: I have pointed no such thing, and this was not even the case in Polish law in 1962. In fact, in 1962 a law was passed which specified a number of reasons why the government could strip a person of Polish citizenship. You link to rules of the year 2000. That may be detail to you but the year 2000 was 38 years after 1962. And in 2000 you had already been living in Canada for 14 years. Nice try with the lies about the link. Pity you didn't mention how the act of 2000, like those of 1998, 1997 and 1990 are all based on that from 1962. z_darius: The main problem you have, and so many pointed this out to you, is that you have a theory born out of a mix of ignorance and hatred towards Poles. I feel so fortunate to be lectured by a man who knows Poles so well after he has not live among them for 23 years and has never lived in free Poland. You must know so much more about the place and the people than me. But again we are beginning to discuss me and the topic for this debate is the phrase "Polish concentration camp". Nice try at distracting me.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 17:56 / #
Harry: And in 2000 you had already been living in Canada for 14 years. what does it have to do with citizenship law in Poland? Harry: Nice try with the lies about the link. Pity you didn't mention how the act of 2000, like those of 1998, 1997 and 1990 are all based on that from 1962. So what? The law of 1962 was still different than it is now. No the state cannot strip a Pole of its citizenship. In 1962 it could. Period. Harry: I feel so fortunate to be lectured by a man who knows Poles so well after he has not live among them for 23 Are you gonna write "24 years" in the next post? Harry: You must know so much more about the place and the people than me. I don't know how much more or less I know, but it's obvious that I know about Poland's citizenship laws than you do. Harry: the topic for this debate is the phrase "Polish concentration camp". Yes, it is. And in that the senator is a liar, or an uneducated fool, as he referred to WW2 German concentration camps. I don't think he had in mind any of the concentration camps ran by Jews and Soviets on Poland's territories.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 18:06 / #
z_darius: any of the concentration camps ran by Jews and Soviets on Poland's territories. Always somebody else's fault isn't it. Nothing bad is ever done by Poles. Which might explain why Poland is so bad at learning from the mistakes of history. z_darius: No the state cannot strip a Pole of its citizenship. In 1962 it could. Legally it could not strip a Pole of his/her citizenship after the 1962 act was passed (hence the very precise phrasing of your statement). If you say it could legally do so after that date, prove it. Here's a hint: you'll want to read about a man named Baruch-Natan Yagil.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 18:22 / #
Harry: Always somebody else's fault isn't it. Nothing bad is ever done by Poles. Poles did plenty of bad things. But that doesn't mean that Jews did not run concentration camps in Poland. Harry: Legally it could not strip a Pole of his/her citizenship after the 1962 act was passed (hence the very precise phrasing of your statement). If you say it could legally do so after that date, prove it. "After that date" is an open ended time frame, so of course the proof you seek cannot be provided for that reason alone. As for the law of 1962, here's a quote from Polish wikipedia: "Obywatel polski, który przebywa za granicą, może być pozbawiony obywatelstwa polskiego, jeżeli: 1. naruszył obowiązek wierności wobec Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej, 2. działał na szkodę żywotnych interesów Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej, 3. nielegalnie opuścił obszar Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej po dniu 9 maja 1945 r., 4. odmówił powrotu do Polski na wezwanie właściwego organu państwowego, 5. uchyla się od wykonania obowiązku wojskowego, przewidzianego przez prawo polskie, 6. skazany został za granicą za przestępstwo stanowiące zbrodnię pospolitą również w rozumieniu prawa polskiego lub jest recydywistą." (Dz. U. z 1962 r. Nr 10, poz. 49) Yes, six reasons why a Pole could have been stripped of the citizenship. Reason number 1 is very much open to interpretation and abuse, but ... dura lex sed lex.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 18:32 / #
z_darius: Poles did plenty of bad things. But that doesn't mean that Jews did not run concentration camps in Poland. Polish Jews and Polish Catholics ran post-WWII concentration camps in Poland. z_darius: Harry: Legally it could not strip a Pole of his/her citizenship after the 1962 act was passed (hence the very precise phrasing of your statement). If you say it could legally do so after that date, prove it. "After that date" is an open ended time frame, so of course the proof you seek cannot be provided for that reason alone. "That date" refers to the date on which the law was passed. z_darius: As for the law of 1962, here's a quote from Polish wikipedia: ... Yes, six reasons why a Pole could have been stripped of the citizenship. Reason number 1 is very much open to interpretation and abuse, but ... dura lex sed lex. Six reasons which have since been found by the Polish court to be unconstitutional.

yehudiThreads: 1 Posts: 871 Joined: Jul 27, 08	Apr 27, 09, 18:50 / #
Harry: Poland is not Israel. Trust me: I live in Poland and would never live in Israel. Amen. I live in Israel and would never live in Poland.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Apr 27, 09, 19:07 / #
Due to the fact that this was said while under 8 min of historical recording the Senator must now ask for an ammendment to his 8 min. and place a correction into this historical record. Use this link to write Sen. Sam Brownback. [url=http://brownback.senate.gov/CMEmailMe.cfm][/url]

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 19:12 / #
Harry: Polish Jews and Polish Catholics ran post-WWII concentration camps in Poland. why not Polish Jews and Polish Catholics Harry: "That date" refers to the date on which the law was passed. Bravo! Some of the subsequent decisions are based on laws that are passed before the decisions are made. I know it's confusing for you but that's how it works. Harry: Six reasons which have since been found by the Polish court to be unconstitutional. Duh! The Polish constitution under communists was as much constitutional as the communist manifesto. In other words, it was as Polish as Solomon Morel's concentration camps.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 19:19 / #
z_darius: why not Polish Jews and Polish Catholics Because they were Polish first and foremost. Or do you think that Salomon Morel was allowed to finish work by sundown every Friday? And that Czesław Gęborski was allowed to refuse to work on Sunday? z_darius: Some of the subsequent decisions are based on laws that are passed before the decisions are made. Some of them are? So you mean to say that some decisions are are based on laws that are passed after the decisions are made. Clearly this is all far to confusing for you.

gumishuThreads: 17 Posts: 3,943 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Apr 27, 09, 19:24 / #
Harry Polish pre-war Jews were not first and foremost Polish (at least great majority of them) this is not having any point to prove just stating a fact

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 19:27 / #
gumishu: Harry Polish pre-war Jews were not first and foremost Polish (at least great majority of them) this is not having any point to prove just stating a fact Good point but I'm talking about the ones who ran some of the post-WWII concentration camps.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 27, 09, 19:38 / #
Harry: Because they were Polish first and foremost. Not true about Jews. They are Jews first and foremost. Otherwise some 6 million Poles were killed during WW2. No Jews. By your logic, there is also no anti-semitism in Poland. There never has been. Remember Polish Jews are Polish first and foremost. Your job is done and you can proceed with your usual hatred towards Poles, albeit deprived of the usual "anti-semitic" banner. Polish Jews imprisoned Polish patriots. That was an internal affair then. Much like religious wars in England, but unlike true, ethnic based concentration camps in the US during WW2. You can't have it both ways.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Apr 27, 09, 20:06 / #
Guest: Senator Brownback just recently used the phrase "Polish concentration camp" in the Senate. You can email Senator Brownback at brownback.senate.gov/CMEmailMe.cfm . Please let him know that there was no such thing as "Polish concentration camp", and a public apology to the Polish Americans and Poland is in order. as a Serbian, i would also react and i would say that i taking his comment as an attack on Serbian nation, too. For me, whole issue terrifies and reminding me on well known anti-Slavic attitude presented by some high ranked politicians of USA and entire so called west. i am upset. Level of humiliation of Slavs is simple enormous. From long time ago it is more then disguisting