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Will this relationship between Ukraine and Poland ever be healed?


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celinskiThreads: 83
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What do Poland's people feel should be done in order to resolve past issues?

Carol


http://www-kresy.pl/wolyn/
Filios1Threads: 15
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Take back Lwow? :)
LukaszThreads: 73
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Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Dec 12, 07, 16:08 /  #
honestly nowadays we have good realtionships (Urainians consider Poles as their the best friends) opinion about Ukrainians is much better last time as well. Now we have problems with Russia ... so we have to be friends ;)


as to Lwow ehhhh it was beautiful Polish town in 1945 Poles were expeled and most of them started new life in Wroclaw.
Grzegorz_Threads: 80
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It has already been healed.
LukaszThreads: 73
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Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Dec 12, 07, 16:55 /  #
ehhh G

you know what is difference between Germans and Ukrainians ... Ukranians wanted to be independent and Germans wanted more and more ...

Now we need independed Ukraina (our safety) and Ukraina needs our support ...
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: Lukasz
as to Lwow ehhhh it was beautiful Polish town in 1945 Poles were expeled and most of them started new life in Wroclaw.


Dead men tell no tales
Filios1Threads: 15
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Quoting: celinski
Dead men tell no tales


Correct Celinski. Indeed, many of our brothers and sisters were murdered by Ukrainian barbarians who took out their revenge on Poles whilst they were under attack and eventual occupation from Russians/Germans.
El GatoThreads: 9
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Quoting: Filios1
Indeed, many of our brothers and sisters were murdered by Ukrainian barbarians who took out their revenge on Poles whilst they were under attack and eventual occupation from Russians/Germans.


And many of our brothers also turned over Jews to the Nazis. Every nation involved in WW2 had people who did things the rest of us are ashamed of. We can't hold that against them. It's been 60 years.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: El Gato
against them



not against, accountable. Carol
z_dariusThreads: 22
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Poland occupied Ukraine for centuries. Ukrainians took revenge. So who's the good guys here?

I'd say time to move on. If there is a reason for Poles and Ukrainians to look back it should be only to see how much they managed to overcome, and yet still be able to be good neighbors.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: z_darius
Poland occupied Ukraine for centuries. Ukrainians took revenge. So who's the good guys here?


I wish it were that simple. I don't know if that was what you were told or you simply never read up on this barbaric killing of Poles. Did you read the link? Carol
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 13, 07, 13:19 /  #
Quoting: celinski


I wish it were that simple. I don't know if that was what you were told or you simply never read up on this barbaric killing of Poles. Did you read the link? Carol


And Poland threw out 400000 Ukrainians in 1944-1945.Do you want them back?
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: southern
threw out 400000 Ukrainians



Threw out is a wee bit differant than the barbaric killing and tourture. Why do you find it so hard to make a society responsable for this behavior? A whole world is aware of what took place and by whom and yet no one should bring up the past.
Just like what happened in eastern Poland, lets not upset Russia and things will get better. I am sorry but they cannot start to get better until the lie's stop and the truth is dealt with.

It is responsability of the countries where the crimes took place to do this. "I am so sorry it never should have taken place". Now, what can we do to move forward? Keep pretending it doesn't matter and this is when the past creeps into the future. Are we all waiting for the movie, like"Katyn" and everyone one can act suprized. Wow, I didn't know that? LOL

Well I guess I should let you in on a little secret, the rest of the world is waiting and watching to see how many lie's it takes vs. dealing with a very f---ed up past. It's almost become pathetic to watch the cover ups. History is never as easy as it seems.

Carol, USA
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Quoting: z_darius
Poland occupied Ukraine for centuries. Ukrainians took revenge. So who's the good guys here?


There are no good guys. Both sides were butchering each other many times.
z_dariusThreads: 22
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Quoting: celinski
I don't know if that was what you were told or you simply never read up on this barbaric killing of Poles. Did you read the link?

I have. I also have a lot of information directly from people who lived there and then. Both Poles and Ukrainians. Some of my family comes from what now is Ukraine.
Of course Ukrainians commited a lot ofattrocities against Poles. So did Poles against Ukrainians. No matter how much I'd like to say Poles were innocent in the Polish-Ukrainian relations I don't think I could honestly do that.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: z_darius
Polish-Ukrainian relations I don't think I could honestly do that


Show me where Poles butchered babies or dropped them in wells for the parents to watch. Yes, Poles commited crimes and they took responsability for them as did the Germans. I cannot say the same for Ukraine or Russia. Even the Germans took responsability for what took place in Ukraine. What about the others? Personally my family were in Siberia slaving away for Stalin. I can't imagine what it was like for the ones that were there and got to see a day to celebrate SS Ukraines. Healing is a funny thing when the victims are denied the decency of an apology. Carol, USA
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Joined: Oct 19, 07 		Edited by: lesser   Dec 13, 07, 18:02 /  #
Honestly, Kwasniewski apologized for Vistula Action but Ukrainian leaders never for Volyhnia events. In western Ukraine they built some monuments of Bandera. Polish media tend to ignore this topic while this caused much more controversies in Ukraine itself. Eastern Ukraine have not better opinion about him than Russians, Jews or Poles.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: lesser
In western Ukraine they built some monuments of Bandera


Is that the one that they wanted to remove or the one that has no writing on it as Ukraine felt it should not mention Polish name as it is now Ukraine.

Quoting: southern
And Poland threw out 400000 Ukrainians in 1944-1945.


If the truth be known how many Ukraine marriages (except for the ones that the Ukraine made kill spouce and children if caught mixing) How many children born were part Russian or Ukraine, maybe Jewish/Catholic. How many marriages were mixed, or children that were born out of rape? Ukraine the great mixing pot. Families that left Poland can remember who married whom, just as well as if they were there. Carol
El GatoThreads: 9
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Quoting: celinski
Why do you find it so hard to make a society responsable for this behavior?


Why do you insist on spreading anymosity? Poles and Ukranians have each done bad things to each other in the past, both groups got over it, why start up a new arguement? Why shouldn't we have a neighbor we don't mind?
omniba   Dec 14, 07, 04:58 /  #
Quoting: El Gato
Why do you insist on spreading anymosity?

I don't really think this is spreading animosity - it's a bit of record straightening, and whether we like it or not, it must be done.
Formal acknowledgement and apology (from every side to every other side) are the only things that can close this chapter. Trying to shut it before such acknowledgement will only lead to someone in the future digging it up and starting the ball rolling all over again with results that might be dramatic for all sides concerned. It is the present generation that can guarantee peace for the future with a little effort and formal show of remorse.
Not only that. Look at the war films, war TV serials, media reports: from these it would result that there were only Jewish victims. Sufficient repeating of such a notion, while never mentioning anybody else, will make it into fact. And that would be tremendously unfair to all those who paid just as high a price as the Jews.
True, there is a lot to be said against an eye-for-an-eye culture, on the other hand by not breathing a word about all the other victims, we are contributing to warping history out of all recognition. History books are also used as manuals for tomorrow's wars, and that is something that must not be forgotten.
In the end it is probably just a question of finding a comfortable formula for acknowledgement and apology which all the nations involved could use.
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Quoting: omniba
ormal acknowledgement and apology (from every side to every other side) are the only things that can close this chapter.


we have done it
omniba   Dec 14, 07, 05:24 /  #
Quoting: Lukasz
we have done it

Good. And have they?
LukaszThreads: 73
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Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Dec 14, 07, 05:39 /  #
we means Ukrainians and Poles ...

Poles and Ukrainians live in present time ...
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 14, 07, 05:51 /  #
The Ukrainians were angry and started ethnic cleansing because the Poles sold them out in Riga treaty in 1921,they brought settlers from Poland in the 20's,forced Polonization by closing ukrainian schools and destroying orthodox churches and prosecuted Ukrainians who resisted.The Germans knew all that and tried to exploit the situation by turning the Ukrainians to become violent towards Poles and Poles reacting during german occupation in order to invade and control better the region and avoid the development of partizan forces faithful to red army.
Before the war there was in Poland a powerful ukrainian minority,a huge belarus minority and a very important german minority.There were millions of Jews.All these minorities led to dissolvement of Poland as a state.After the war Poland has no Jews,no Germans,very few Ukrainians and no Belarus minority.It is clear and homogenous.
So what is the point?Do you want minorities back?People who did all these exchanges of populations did so in order to make polish state more stable and increase its chances of survival.Why so much hatred now?
LukaszThreads: 73
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Joined: Sep 1, 07 		Edited by: Lukasz   Dec 14, 07, 06:11 /  #
southern



one of your national Heros Chmielnicki was native Pole (he leaded Ukrainian uprise) ... what is more our King was on your side ... so occupation of Ukraine is mith and case is much more complicted ... and it was rather home war ...

as to Riga treaty ... do you think Poland could conquer Russia in 1920 ... it is the fact that we won in war against whole soviet union and had defended our country but what you should notice ... we call it ... "miracle"

Quoting: southern
in the 20's,forced Polonization by closing ukrainian schools and destroying orthodox churches and prosecuted Ukrainians who resisted


it was result of Austrian policy in XIX century (this part of Poland/Ukraine beloged to Austrio-Hungarians) they were finding Poles as a thread and used you as tool agains us ... later we wanted to take revange ...


as to Ukrainians during WWII ... we undestand that you were German tool ...

there is nice book "Rozmowy z katem" ...

interview with german SS genral who pacificated Warszawa Getto and after the war had final punishment in Poland... he said what was the plan for Ukrianians ... (it wasnt nice at all)



What is important to the moment when we cooperated in our history ... we were strong ... when we sarted to argue ... Germans and Russians had taken leadership in our part of Europe ...

I think we realized this fact ... and have taken lesson ...
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 14, 07, 06:24 /  #
I am not ukrainian.I have been in these places in west Ukraine and the impression I got was that Poles came to the region,ruled for some time and then they were forced out.Anyway I am not an expert.But I find it reasonable that closing of schools and churches and bringing settlers will create tension.
Also that the compromise and not keeping promises after a common war made Ukrainians lose trust regarding true intentions of Poland.And man,these people are violent.You always knew that.
PrzemasThreads: 1
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Ukraine is such a divided Nation.

I’ve spoken to many “Ukrainians” whom feel more of an affiliation towards Russia than that of their own birthplace - Ukraine.

I honestly very much hope that Ukraine one day joins us in the EU and leaves behind the meddling ways of the Kremlin.

True sovereignty is my hope for this Nation.
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You cannot join the EU and be truly sovereign. This is not the point to replace meddling of Moscow to meddling of Brussels bureaucracy.

@southern
Poles lived in today western Ukraine for many centuries together with Ukrainians.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Quoting: omniba
Good. And have they?



No, they were going to say they were sorry, then never did. Carol
LukaszThreads: 73
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Quoting: celinski
No, they were going to say they were sorry, then never did. Carol


they did ...
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