Time for a review of Germanic Polish relations ?

godstar:

Now the expulsions after the war, the way in which they were acheived is probably better dealt in another topic, prece'ed a rewriting of history to reflect these 'regained lands'. Is it not time that the hatred that existed then, on both sides, can be put to rest and some sort of real concilication started.

godstarThreads: 1 Joined: Nov 3, 09	Nov 3, 09, 12:16 / #
Is it now the time to review the past openly ,instead of the constant reluctance ,on both sides to square up to the events of the war and post war? Certainly the crimes detailed against the Poles , as a whole making no distinction between religion,creed or origins, are well documented both within Poland and Germany. The historical evidence points to a constant ebb and flow of national influence in the Pomeranian, (and old Prussian regions) occassionally it was held by Polish kings, some with a very distinct Germainic outlook and sometimes by the descendents of the Teutons and Germans. The population remained the same while this game of uber politics took place, like in so much of Europe, there was never a garantee that your King spoke your language and why should it matter if you are treated well. Now the expulsions after the war, the way in which they were acheived is probably better dealt in another topic, prece'ed a rewriting of history to reflect these 'regained lands'. Is it not time that the hatred that existed then, on both sides, can be put to rest and some sort of real concilication started. I have visited Germany many times, including those "dark" places where humanity ceased to exist and I have visited Poland many time also. I have no grudge to bear, being neither one nor other. Is it not time though to acknowledge the German influence(and history)in those vovoidships and perhaps some sort of remembrance of the civilian victims of war both of German and Polish origins within Poland. I would very much like to see a future in which 1000 years of history can be shown and the 16 years of hate be dismantled. This can only be done by honest and open acceptance of the past, however hurtful this may be.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 12:40 / #
godstar: in those vovoidships Which voivodships?

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 3, 09, 14:55 / #
godstar: I would very much like to see a future in which 1000 years of history can be shown and the 16 years of hate be dismantled. You really know nothing about Polish-German history do you? We can discuss our 1000 years of hate and 19 years of reluctant partnership, at best.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 15:41 / #
vetala: You really know nothing about Polish-German history do you? We can discuss our 1000 years of hate and 19 years of reluctant partnership, at best. Apparently you know nothing about Polish history as well you focking little monkey, go die under a tree. Gdańsk is a Polish-German city and a testament to good mutual relations, much of German elite untill 17th century educated themselves on Jagiellonian university, most of German cavalry units throught the reneissance consisted of Poles and so on and so forth. Untill Prussia focked up our mutural relations they were anything but bad.

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Edited by: Piorun Nov 3, 09, 16:20 / #
Here comes a wolf in a sheep’s clothing and you defend him Sokrates. I thought a philosopher like yourself would see right through him. He made his intentions known. godstar: Now the expulsions after the war, the way in which they were acheived is probably better dealt in another topic, prece'ed a rewriting of history to reflect these 'regained lands'. Is it not time that the hatred that existed then, on both sides, can be put to rest and some sort of real concilication started. He’s got an agenda and a goal to achieve. He’s already implying injustices and cruelty of expulsions perpetrated by the Poles on poor innocent Germans conveniently omitting the events that lead to this. All of his pretending to be a peace loving hippy is not fooling me. In two short paragraphs he managed to take the German side no less than seven times, Polish none, laid claim to the land as German and implied injustice but he still wants to pass himself impartial. What I usually tell people like him is to go fly a kite, why you give him a break is beyond me, you just encourage him.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 16:30 / #
Time for a review of Germanic Polish relations ? Why? Because Germany needs Polish resources, again?

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 3, 09, 16:44 / #
Sokrates, if Prussians truly loved Poland so much they wouldn't partition us in the first place.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 16:59 / #
vetala: Sokrates, if Prussians truly loved Poland so much they wouldn't partition us in the first place. If you would actually read a book once in your filthy uneducated dumb life you could possibly pass as anything else but a bloody retard. I'm not even going to explain history to you there's books for that, now gtfo and die so our genepool improves. Piorun: Here comes a wolf in a sheep’s clothing and you defend him Sokrates. I thought a philosopher like yourself would see right through him. He made his intentions known. He came here to bait stupid people like you and he succeded, congrats on being a dumbass and swallow the bait, the line and the fishing rod at one go. Besides while there seems to be a dung bomb hidden somewhere there he raises valid points.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 3, 09, 17:07 / #
vetala: You really know nothing about Polish-German history do you? We can discuss our 1000 years of hate and 19 years of reluctant partnership, at best. You definitely know nothing about Polish/German history. 1000 years of hate - what a bullsh*t. Piorun: ...and cruelty of expulsions perpetrated by the Poles on poor innocent Germans conveniently omitting the events that lead to this. That the ethnic cleansing was a direct result of WW2 doesn't matter, because it still doesn't justify the brutality during the expulsion process. Don't call someone an animal when you behave like one yourself...

derek trotterThreads: 12 Posts: 252 Joined: Apr 10, 09	Edited by: derek trotter Nov 3, 09, 17:24 / #
godstar: The historical evidence points to a constant ebb and flow of national influence in the Pomeranian, (and old Prussian regions) occassionally it was held by Polish kings, some with a very distinct Germainic outlook and sometimes by the descendents of the Teutons and Germans. this one is particularly offensive can not really remember any Polish king with Teuton identity ( we are talking about Polish monarchs until the end of Jagiellon dynasty- after that kings were elected by sejm - Elective Monarchy - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elected_monarchy ). A lot of Polish kings and dukes had German spouses, the same with Slavic rulers daughters they were married to German ruling class and they become Germans, but calling Polish kings descendants of Germans and Teutons without sayin thats was workin in both directions is radiculous and not objective for sure.

derek trotterThreads: 12 Posts: 252 Joined: Apr 10, 09	Edited by: derek trotter Nov 3, 09, 17:56 / #
vetala: I've read about German rulers, politicians and philosophers too There was a guy - Nietzsche we call him. He even felt close to be Polish than German. He had no Polish blood whatsoever but ( we dont know why ) he felt about himself as a Pole. Strange. from wiki Citizenship, nationality, ethnicity Nietzsche is commonly classified as a “German” philosopher by professionals and non-specialists alike.[34] The modern unified nation-state called Germany did not yet exist at the time of his birth, but the German Confederation of states did, and Nietzsche was a citizen of one of these, Prussia – for a time. When he accepted his post at Basel, Nietzsche applied for the annulment of his Prussian citizenship.[35] The official response confirming the revocation of his citizenship came in a document dated April 17, 1869[36], and for the rest of his life he remained officially stateless. Nietzsche's feelings about his national identity were clearly complex. In Ecce Homo, he writes: Even by virtue of my descent, I am granted an eye beyond all merely local, merely nationally conditioned perspectives; it is not difficult for me to be a "good European." On the other hand, I am perhaps more German than present-day Germans, mere citizens of the German Reich, could possibly be—I, the last anti-political German. And yet my ancestors were Polish noblemen: I have many racial instincts in my body from that source—who knows? [...] When I consider how often I am addressed as a Pole when I travel, even by Poles themselves, and how rarely I am taken for a German, it might seem that I have been merely externally sprinkled with what is German.[37] A later revision of the same passage was discovered in 1969 among the papers of Peter Gast.[38] In it Nietzsche is even more adamant about his Polish Identity. “I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood.”[39] On yet another occasion Nietzsche stated: “Germany is a great nation only because its people have so much Polish blood in their veins... I am proud of my Polish descent.”[40]

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Nov 3, 09, 17:59 / #
vetala: I've read about wars between Poland and HRE So was HRE anti-French? Because it fought with France, Sweden, Austria, Italy? Countries fight wars. Poland was a power and so was HRE, they both often went for the same slice of the pie so its only natural there were wars. vetala: I have nothing against Germans as people, but when we speak about German and Polish nations then saying that he have been anything other then enemies for the past thousand years is nothing but wishful thinking. Have you read how Germans fed and clothed our rebels after the failed September uprising? How Poles and Germans built together one of the greatest harbor cities Gdańsk? How German cities defected to Poland and faithfully defended Polish interests in Teutonic wars period or how German cities would not betray John Casimir when Poles did? My ass knows more about Polish history then you do. derek trotter: There was a guy - Nietzsche we call him. He even felt close to be Polish than German. And this evil Niestsche openly stated that the future of Europe belongs to Slavic people (seems he wasnt wrong either) so much for the evil German. Seriously Vetala go shoot yourself, i can stand Maregea and other chimpansees posting bull but seeing fellow Poles spout idiocy is just sad.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	Nov 3, 09, 18:13 / #
derek trotter: There was a guy - Nietzsche we call him. He even felt close to be Polish than German. He had no Polish blood whatsoever but ( we dont know why ) he felt about himself as a Pole. Strange. There's a reason why. He had a fallout with the mighty composer Wagner over the kiss ass opera "Parsifal" which Nietzsche thought of as sucking up to the King. He was disgusted at Wagner over that. He, also, didn't like the chauvinism of the Prussians. Nietzsche's last name looks like a mixture of Polish and German, so he claimed to be Polish just to insult the Germans and a dig at Wagner, the epitome of German culture at the tiime. This is why he was so proud to call himself a Pole. He, also, admired Poles and said they had more culture than Germans. derek trotter: Strange. It's not strange at all if you read a few Nietzsche biographies.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 3, 09, 18:19 / #
vetala: The majority of Germans throughout history were neutral toward Poland, some hated Poles and a tiny minority loved them. But just like anti-German sentiment in Poland, anti-Polish sentiment in Germany was more commonly expressed than sympathy. I wonder where the millions of 'skis coming from in Germany. Let me guess, Poles wandering into Germany over the centuries, working and settling there? Can't be this hateful... Germany has a similiar history with France which is a real related people, we have the same roots more or less, they even got their name from a german tribes federation......those "1000 years of hate" have much more to do with being neighbours in Europe than with real hate! ;) (When you would neighbour...say...Tackatuckaland you would probably speak of 1000 years of hate with Tackatuckaland. Europes history is that way..or better WAS that way!) One of the most famous german generals was one Erich von Manstein, a born Lewinski. One of the most famous polish heros was one Emil Fieldorf... Where do you think they came from? ;)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Nov 3, 09, 17:24 / #
TheOther: That the ethnic cleansing was a direct result of WW2 doesn't matter, because it still doesn't justify the brutality during the expulsion process. Actually yes it matters and yes it justifies that but then again you're not a descendant of those directly affected so who're you to pass judgement. On the other hand the topic is absolutely pointless, Germans and Poles are on their way towards reconciliation, there's going to be bumps as Germans attempt to re-write history and Polish version clashes with German one but the rivers flowing in the good direction. derek trotter: can not really remember any Polish king with Teuton identity How about kings of Saxony? Granted they sucked as rulers but they were undeniably German. Of course during the times of Polish greatness we had Polish, Lithuanian or Hungarian rulers but no German ones but we did have a couple of German kings. derek trotter: A lot of Polish kings and dukes had German spouses Very few actually. derek trotter: Slavic rulers daughters they were married to German ruling class and they become Germans Name one? derek trotter: Germans and Teutons without sayin thats was workin with both directions is radiculous and not objective for sure. Apart from Wettins no Polish king was descended or even closely related to Germans, as for distant relations, all European royals were related (except for Russians who were ruled by sheep shaggers untill 17th century).

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Nov 3, 09, 17:30 / #
Sokrates: congrats on being a dumbass and swallow the bait, the line and the fishing rod at one go. I believe the expression is “hook, line and sinker”. Easy there champ, if you band over any further to find that valid point he dropped in his brilliant piece of promoting flower power you might get a hernia.

derek trotterThreads: 12 Posts: 252 Joined: Apr 10, 09	Edited by: derek trotter Nov 3, 09, 17:34 / #
Whole Piast dynasty were mingling with German monarchs in both directions, even Habsburgs have Slavic Polish blood , Saxons were elected - different story, just like Wasas - Swedes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oda_of_Meissen http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richeza_of_Lotharingia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_of_Swabia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomea_of_Berg just for starter

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 17:36 / #
vetala: Sokrates, if Prussians truly loved Poland so much they wouldn't partition us in the first place. well, its because of germanization. Don`t be surprised. Germanization affecting peoples minds as well as size of penises. Minimize output

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Edited by: vetala Nov 3, 09, 17:48 / #
Sokrates: If you would actually read a book once in your filthy uneducated dumb life you could possibly pass as anything else but a bloody retard. I read lots of books. Historical ones too. I've read about wars between Poland and HRE. I've read about wars with the Teutons. I've read about the Polish army stationed around Prussian cities during the Prussian Homage, in case Albert were to decide that he'd rather not make any homages and make Prussia an independent state. I've read about the Partitions. I've read about WWII, expulsions, Prussian Trust and the refusal of accepting the borders until the 70's. I've read about German rulers, politicians and philosophers too. I've read about Frederic the Great refering to 'the slovenly Polish trash', Chancellor Bismarck's words about 'beating the Poles till they despair' and of course many books on Nazis, none of whom spoke well of Poles. I have nothing against Germans as people, but when we speak about German and Polish nations then saying that he have been anything other then enemies for the past thousand years is nothing but wishful thinking.

TheOtherThreads: 5 Posts: 1,584 Joined: Jul 13, 09	Edited by: TheOther Nov 3, 09, 17:55 / #
Sokrates: you're not a descendant of those directly affected so who're you to pass judgement. How do you know? :) Besides, I know more than enough about the German/Polish history to have my own opinion. So I stick to my argument: don't blame someone for a crime if you've committed crimes yourself. Anyhow, it's history now and you're correct: the two nations are moving into the right direction.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 3, 09, 18:12 / #
Nietzsche was just as much against antipolonism as he was against antisemitism. Would you say that German and Jewish nations had a thousand years of kisses and sparkles? Like I said - I have nothing against Germans. The majority of Germans throughout history were neutral toward Poland, some hated Poles and a tiny minority loved them. But just like anti-German sentiment in Poland, anti-Polish sentiment in Germany was more commonly expressed than sympathy.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Nov 3, 09, 18:47 / #
vetala: Nietzsche was just as much against antipolonism as he was against antisemitism Nope sorry, if you were such an uneducated moron and would just stop posting it would be appreciated. "I feel slavic in thought" Nietsche. Though he critisized pan germanism etc he was specifically pro-Slavic and pro-Polish. vetala: Like I said - I have nothing against Germans I tend to agree, your opinion stems from lack of education and you being overall an idiot rather then any prejudice. vetala: The majority of Germans throughout history were neutral toward Poland Actually when given a choice the majority of Germans chose Poland over Germany for hundreds of years. vetala: But just like anti-German sentiment in Poland, anti-Polish sentiment in Germany was more commonly expressed than sympathy. Only after the partitions when the justification of stealing Polish land was needed, before that most Germans were pro-Polish and even in 1831 when our uprising fell common Germans treated our soldiers as heroes just because we fought for our own freedom.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 3, 09, 19:09 / #
Time for a review of Germanic Polish relations ? It's already happening. Only couple a days ago, German foreign affairs minister Guido Westerwelle made his first foreign diplomatic visit and he came to Poland. It was a clear signal from Germany that they attach very high value to good relations with Poland. Westerwelle met with Radosław Sikorski, but he was also very warmly received by president Lech Kaczynski - so that's also significant. I'm all for improving the relations and strengthening the ties between Poland and Germany for the greater good of our two countries and The Union. derek trotter: On yet another occasion Nietzsche stated: “Germany is a great nation only because its people have so much Polish blood in their veins... I am proud of my Polish descent.” I can see some potential here for the new "GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE FRYDERYK NICZE (FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE)!!! OUTRAGE!!!" thread :-)

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	Edited by: PlasticPole Nov 3, 09, 19:11 / #
vetala: Nietzsche was just as much against antipolonism as he was against antisemitism. This is true. In his writings, he criticized both prejudices and thought they diminished the German zeitgeist. He wanted to see Germans and Prussians as more tolerant, less chauvanistic and definitely less Christian. He was against Christianity and Judaism on these fronts, calling them slave religions and slave moralities. He had something in common with Jewish Athiests here, although he supported the idea of monarchies with powerful, noble, aristrocratic "ubermensch" running the show. The common people should only exist to witness the actions of the "ubermensch" is the idea behind his ethics and theology. He believed in the "good European" as opposed to nationalism (nationalism is why he despised the Prussians) and considered himself quite cosmopolitian. I would consider him a liberal.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 3, 09, 19:14 / #
Torq: I can see some potential here for the new "GERMANS WANT TO GERMANIZE FRYDERYK NICZE (FRIEDRICH NIETZSCHE)!!! OUTRAGE!!!" :-) Nope...shakes head...you can have him. I'm in a generous mood today! ;)

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Nov 3, 09, 19:18 / #
Maybe a case of ?

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 3, 09, 19:20 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Nope...shakes head...you can have him. I'm in a generous mood today! ;) Why thank you! In this case you can have... Ludwig van Beethoven! I'm in a generous mood too ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 3, 09, 19:22 / #
Torq: Why thank you! In this case you can have... Ludwig van Beethoven! I'm in a generous mood too ;) You are to nice! But back to the topic, I really think relationships between our countries never had such a bright future ahead! We should make the best of it!

rjedenThreads: 1 Posts: 30 Joined: Feb 10, 08	Nov 3, 09, 20:00 / #
I think our relationships are promising.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Nov 4, 09, 08:51 / #
time means: Maybe a case of very nice