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Turkey, Russia and their place in Europe?


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SeanusThreads: 22
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  Dec 6, 09, 01:39 /  #
The Serbs are resilient and that grittiness doesn't taste too good in the mouths of the global elite who want nations to bow down to them. Milosevic, as you will accept too, was a war criminal but he embodied resistance and wouldn't acquiesce. Men who stand up and don't remain silent will at least keep the hope of salvation alive.

CrowThreads: 367
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Edited by: Crow   Dec 6, 09, 01:44 /  #
Seanus:
Milosevic, ....... was a war criminal

Who say so? Who announced that to the world? CNN, Al Jazeera, BBC, Toni Blair, Bill Clinton, Havier Solana, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Germany, Britain, ...

THEY announced that and killed Milosevic in the Hague
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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  Dec 6, 09, 02:41 /  #
Crow:
Who say so? Who announced that to the world?

Milosevic himself did, on many a occasion. Milosevic dominated what was left of Yugoslavia and could easily have ended things if he so wanted. Or have you forgotten that it was Milosevic that signed Dayton and not the leader of the Bosnian Serbs?

Let's not forget that Milosevic is almost certainly to blame for Kosovar secession.

Tudjman was just as bad, though.
CrowThreads: 367
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Edited by: Crow   Dec 6, 09, 03:01 /  #
delphiandomine:
Milosevic dominated what was left of Yugoslavia and could easily have ended things if he so wanted.

being dictator is one thing but, war criminal is something else. So, let me tell you that we know for sure that he was dictator but, there were/are not proofs that he was war criminal

Then, its questionable how did he become dictator. Its enigma to me. For banker that worked in USA, he practicaly at night became cheff of Serbian communist party. From that position Milosevic was among those who hijacked communist party of Yugoslavia and suggested pollitical changes to multiparty system, democratization.

Anyway, in one moment, EU and NATO decided to destroy Yugoslavia but Milosevic resisted to that process. In any case, Yugoslav and Serbian regime deformed under pressure from outside powers. Rest is history, even Milosevic himself
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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  Dec 6, 09, 03:22 /  #
Crow:
being dictator is one thing but, war criminal is something else. So, let me tell you that we know for sure that he was dictator but, there were/are not proofs that he was war criminal

Who ordered the JNA to attack in Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia?

As I said - Milosevic had the power to dictate what went on. If he had stepped in and said "enough" - that would've been it. Nothing happened in Yugoslavia and in "Greater Serbia' without his knowledge and consent, that much is certain. Ultimately, he has to take responsibility for what Serbians were doing.

You will surely agree that Tudjman was just as much a war criminal, though?

Crow:
From that position Milosevic was among those who hijacked communist party of Yugoslavia and suggested pollitical changes to multiparty system, democratization.

Milosevic hijacked Serbian sentiment for his own motives, that much is clear. I don't believe for one second that ordinary Serbs want(ed) to kill and murder their fellow Yugoslav people - although it's probably fair to say that they wanted areas which were Serb-controlled and of course these people looked to Belgrade.

Crow:
Anyway, in one moment, EU and NATO decided to destroy Yugoslavia but Milosevic resisted to that process.

Milosevic destroyed Yugoslavia - just certain countries stupidly managed to encourage him. It's pretty obvious from the JNA's lack of will in fighting Slovenia that Milosevic had no real intentions in keeping Yugoslavia together and wanted a Serbia that brought together all Serbian people. Tudjman had exactly the same motives with Croatia - in fact, if it wasn't for Croatian atrocities during WW2 towards Serbs, I could easily see Bosnia carved up between Serbia and Croatia.

Then again Crow - what do you think, was Yugoslavia capable of democracy?
CrowThreads: 367
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  Dec 6, 09, 15:08 /  #
delphiandomine

woman, you mistaking
delphiandomineThreads: 42
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  Dec 6, 09, 15:29 /  #
No sensible answer, then? :)
SeanusThreads: 22
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  Dec 6, 09, 15:31 /  #
Some say that order was given by Kucan after a meeting with Genschner and his Austrian counterpart (Meek?). JNA soldiers were barely even armed and this was a staged event, delph. It is by no means clear cut that Slobodan authorised that.

Milosevic had so many tough decisions to make. Izetbegovic was pressing ahead with his Caliphate plans and Kakadardevo was built on distrust between Tudjman and Milosevic. He had to do sth to stem the tide of nationalism and appease them somewhat.

Delph, it was Karadzic that wielded the forceps on the territory issue. He was present at the first Srebrenica/Vlasenica/Zvornik massacres and he was determined never to let Serbs face that fate again.

Google Kakadardevo for more on the Serbo/Croat pact which didn't materialise.
CrowThreads: 367
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  Dec 6, 09, 17:21 /  #
delphiandomine:
No sensible answer, then? :)

what for? you aren`t open enough
SeanusThreads: 22
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  Dec 6, 09, 22:42 /  #
Being a man of deep research from my university days, I wouldn't base a whole contention on one video but this material supports what I have read and thus represents a summary of sorts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCF0jLDQmpY, Milosevic showing the more agreeable side of his nature. This was not the final straw position, this was in 1993, just one year into the war. Karadzic can be heard mentioning Zvornik, an area where Serb villagers where trounced and mutilated.

You have to probe more and look beyond the Western press, delph. I made the same mistake back in the day.

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