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Turkey, Russia and their place in Europe?


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LoneStranger   Jan 28, 07, 12:33 /  #
Quoting: Amathyst, Post #27
I say no to Turkey being a memeber of the EU, since there will be hords of poor people coming to the UK.

isnt is...umm.... bit mean?.... if someone is poor....are we supposed to behave like that with them?

Are you not of Polish decent?... no matter what you respond to this note from me.... if someone would say that to a Pole....because we are poorer, or any other inferiority they trace in us....would we feel good?

Would Christ do that?... If not... who do we follow in our daily lives....or are we aimless?

Or maybe... yes ... that line was not from the heart... but from a confused mind, which is looking for something which it doesnt know.

UK will not be poorer with Turks/Poles/Arabs/Indians... neither will any other country. Man is God's most beloved creation....and none of His creations are so worthless.

We do have problems... but escaping from them, or closing our doors to an ailing person outside....dont save us....or make ur better and more prosperous.....it only elevates the illness of the soul...

These are not to teach anyone....just my opinion...as usual...

But I can request my friends to ponder....even ... just for a moment

AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 28, 07, 12:36 /  #
Quoting: esra84, Post #29
you cant understand or u dont want to! Jihad is not killing people, jihad is defending ur own country.. The biggest sin is to kill someone in islam. so how can u expect jihad means to kill people.. i am sure if there would be a war in ur counrty u would fight too.. thats what we call jihad in islam.. hope u will get this time


now you are just talking sh*t and a very annoying muslim, well, these dirty scum muslims killed quite a few people in my country, and they alway shout Jihad, whatever country they are in and it is usually in the context that is threatening.....And as for fighting no I wouldnt since Im a women and women do not fight!

Oh yeah muslims are very lovely people, they carry bombs and kill inocent people and they are always demanding one thing or another! Please dont come to the UK we dont want anymore people like you...we hate you!

Quoting: LoneStranger, Post #30
and whats ur opinion for Russia ?


Dont really have one Mr L since I know near to nothing about Russia and its politic.
Maxxx PayneThreads: 2
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  Jan 28, 07, 15:08 /  #
Quoting: esra84, Post #29
Quoting: Amathyst, Post #28
maybe we are more civilised now unlike those who still carry out their Jihad's!

you cant understand or u dont want to! Jihad is not killing people, jihad is defending ur own country.. The biggest sin is to kill someone in islam. so how can u expect jihad means to kill people.. i am sure if there would be a war in ur counrty u would fight too.. thats what we call jihad in islam.. hope u will get this time



Sometimes defending your own country requires that you kill people. And Jihad also requires that you are ready to kill people, it wouldn't be a war otherwise or would it ?
The thing is: in Christianity there is no justification whatsoever for war or killing, like Jesus said: turn the other cheek. It is better to suffer from evil than to do evil oneself.
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 28, 07, 15:40 /  #
Quoting: LoneStranger, Post #31

isnt is...umm.... bit mean?.... if someone is poor....are we supposed to behave like that with them?

Are you not of Polish decent?... no matter what you respond to this note from me.... if someone would say that to a Pole....because we are poorer, or any other inferiority they trace in us....would we feel good?

Would Christ do that?... If not... who do we follow in our daily lives....or are we aimless?

Or maybe... yes ... that line was not from the heart... but from a confused mind, which is looking for something which it doesnt know.

UK will not be poorer with Turks/Poles/Arabs/Indians... neither will any other country. Man is God's most beloved creation....and none of His creations are so worthless.

We do have problems... but escaping from them, or closing our doors to an ailing person outside....dont save us....or make ur better and more prosperous.....it only elevates the illness of the soul...

These are not to teach anyone....just my opinion...as usual...

But I can request my friends to ponder....even ... just for a moment


LS, I am living in a country that is over run with foreigners, my tolerance dwindles daily and I dont want some other nation of poor people arrving in my country, simple and if that makes me a bad person for thinking that then so be it....I dont care! and I am certainly not confused about how I feel about these matters.

Poland is pretty much unafected and doesnt have masses of immagrants so I really dont think you are qualified to comment.
globetrotterThreads: 4
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  Jan 28, 07, 15:49 /  #
Just to add my views on this. I think Amathyst is correct. My country has long had a reputation for providing asylum to people whose lives are in danger from around the world, and I hope that we will always continue to do our share on this going forwards. That we can do with no more countries of the size of Turkey coming in to the EU is not racist but a simple matter of economics and numbers. Ours is s small country. We have the same population (roughly) as France but in a quarter of the area. Our infrastructure, roads, rail, helath service, education is at breaking point. There are too many people on this Island - period. I don't care about the race or religionof people who come here. I do care that people who were born here are disadvantaged in favour of economic migrants who do not pay taxes (which obviously excludes the vast majority of Poles).
i_love_detroitThreads: 1
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  Jan 28, 07, 16:17 /  #
Well, I read that in Scotland they desperately need people, eg Dundee use to had 200000 now the city is about 120k. But that's a different story.

As a Polish I definitely think we should open our territory for any country, as Poland is definitely not diverse enough and we have less and less people every year. Moreover with current economical situation pretty soon will have not enough labour. But it doesn't matter anymore as now we have no influence on whoever can/cannot come to our country. Anyway I think any country should be allow to join the EU as long as it is democratic (Russia does not satisfy this condition) and there is no risk of making the EU unstable (Turkey IMO does not satisfy this one). But it might change in future, who knows?

What do you think about Marocco? This country wanted once to be in EU, but was not allowed because it's in Africa. Do you think the name of organization should be such a problem? If it is, maybe we should change it? I think both Marocco and the EU lost a lot by not allowing Marocco join the structure.
Grzegorz_Threads: 80
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  Jan 28, 07, 17:14 /  #
Quoting: i_love_detroit, Post #36
What do you think about Marocco?


Definately no.
MatyjaszThreads: 2
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  Jan 28, 07, 17:25 /  #
Quoting: andala, Post #22
I don't think that the decision whether to grant Turkey access to the EU should be based on religious issues. Does Islam equal terrorism? Crimes justified by religion have taken place all around the world and in the name of all Gods.

What should rather be considred is possible benefits EU would get accepting Turkey and/or Russia. Personally as a Pole, I'm in favour of Turkey rather than Russia as the former never accepted our occupation by the three empires whilst the latter was one of our occupants and is responsible for sheding our blood throughout ages.



True, but I don't think that the decision whether to grant Turkey access to the EU should be based mainly on the historical aspect. Lonestranger wrote that Turkey was always more interested in Europe than Russia. Yeah, they sure were interested...in conquering it!.

My main reason why Turkey shouldn't be let to join EU is because of the cultural differences. We should learn form Germans.
BojownikThreads: -
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Edited by: Bojownik   Jan 28, 07, 18:21 /  #
Quoting: LoneStranger, Post #1
Turkey has always been very much involved in European history



Oh yeah? stealing babies from places such as greece and slaughtering armenians? Turkey has no place in europe. They are muslums. Turkey isint interested in russia because russians are intolerant of spades.
i_love_detroitThreads: 1
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  Jan 28, 07, 23:33 /  #
Quoting: Grzegorz_, Post #37
Quoting: i_love_detroit, Post #36
What do you think about Marocco?


Definately no.


Could you tell me why?
LoneStranger   Jan 29, 07, 03:21 /  #
Quoting: Amathyst, Post #34
bad person

did I call you bad?

Anyways, in this modern world specially, we will not be able to shut our doors forever (if we are doing now). An if our doors are open, then it will only benefit us, and be more respectful.

You think I am wrong?... think again... And if you still think I am wrong ... then let time tell...The world could never stop immigrants....it depends on their wish...on where they move or like to move... governments try....but can not succeed in stopping ... but only to a certain limit.

UK is already in a situation where migrants have alot of influence. And, as a matter of fact, these migrants are now very much a part of modern day England. They are British, recognised by their government. They also play a part in their (new) countries administration. For some, England is not new anymore, but a country where they were born, and sometimes even their fathers....

A person of Polish decent will try to take some more Poles (or atleast have a soft corner for them)...atleast a good number of them will have the soft corner . A person from turkish decent will do the same.... and also indians or chinese.
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 29, 07, 03:33 /  #
Quoting: LoneStranger, Post #41
UK is already in a situation where migrants have alot of influence. And, as a matter of fact, these migrants are now very much a part of modern day England. They are British, recognised by their government. They also play a part in their (new) countries administration. For some, England is not new anymore, but a country where they were born, and sometimes even their fathers....



The point is they have too much influence in MY country, LS yes England has always been such a lovely multicultural place to live, but like GT said we cannot handle the influx any longer, do you not understand that our schools and hospitals are bursting WE DONT HAVE THE INFRASTRUCTURE IN PLACE to cope, just imagine if Poland had 2 million people arrive in one year, think about it from an economic point of view, how would the schools manage how would your local G.P. manage, housing, transport systems etc....I feel like crying when I think of the state of my country!
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  Jan 29, 07, 03:56 /  #
Quoting: i_love_detroit, Post #40
Could you tell me why?



Cultural differences. But maybe Grzegorz had something else in his mind.
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  Jan 29, 07, 04:07 /  #
And before anybody starts to accuse me of being a little Englander who wants to cut my country off, a gentle reminder. The UK and Ireland were the only two member states who initially allowed (and welcomed) people from the new member states to come and work here. I see no posts moaning about France or Germany, for example.

My concern is twofold. One, the number of economic migrants from outside the EU who have no legitimate cause for asylum who sponge off the welfare state. Two, we are FULL UP.

Finally, if being concerned about the erosion of our culture and way of life is considered to be racist then yes I am a rascist. When I worked and lived in countries around the world I believed it was my duty to be mindful of the traditions and customs of those countries. I went out of my way to fit in and respect the values and behaviours of that country. It appears that in the UK there are large groups who don't feel that way. There is an opinion poll reported on today for example that states that 40% of young Muslims would want to see Sharia law in the UK. If you want Sharia Law then go live somewhere where it is adopted. There are many immigrant communities where a balance between their beliefs and fitting in with others has been remarkably successful. Look at the Hindu and Sikh communities for example. Their contribution to the economic and cultural enrichment of this country has been immense but I do not see them demanding changes upon the rest of the nation.
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 29, 07, 04:50 /  #
I couldnt agree with you more Mr G....


LS, Muslims have more rights in the UK that your average citizen....and wanting more by the day, aparently our age old legislation is not good enough for them...

islamic-sharia.co.uk/main.html

mcb.org.uk
LoneStranger   Jan 29, 07, 07:09 /  #
If someone is extreme and fundamentalist. There is the jail for them. And our basic law, which is supposed to be followed by everyone.

Quoting: Amathyst, Post #45
Muslims have more rights in the UK that your average citizen

I wonder.... well... then its your Govt. problem. You and any other citizen of your country are supposed to have the same rights. But it doesnt mean that if you think someone else is getting more than you, then you go ahead and kill kick that person..!!....there are other more civilized ways.

Remember its ur family....and u being from UK....mocking your own family members in a Polish room ...think about it :P
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  Jan 29, 07, 07:14 /  #
Quoting: LoneStranger, Post #46
Remember its ur family....and u being from UK....mocking your own family members in a Polish room ...think about it :P



I didn't get that part. And just for the record, Amathyst is English.
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 29, 07, 07:17 /  #
Im not mocking anyone, I am stating facts that my government is - in the imortal words or our great Paul Calf - a Bag o' Sh*te!

and as for kicking anyone - please have a look at the links - they need kicking!
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 29, 07, 07:18 /  #
Quoting: Matyjasz, Post #47
I didn't get that part. And just for the record, Amathyst is English.


Yes I am and as far as I can remember I have never said otherwise Mr M, but thanks for pointing that out the LS
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  Jan 29, 07, 07:27 /  #
Quoting: Amathyst, Post #49
Yes I am and as far as I can remember I have never said otherwise Mr M, but thanks for pointing that out the LS


I'm a very helpful person.
AmathystThreads: 30
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  Jan 29, 07, 07:29 /  #
Quoting: Matyjasz, Post #50
I'm a very helpful person.


You are indeed
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  Jan 29, 07, 08:10 /  #
Quoting: i_love_detroit, Post #40
Could you tell me why?


Because culturally, politically and economically they have little in common with EU members. Besides there are many other countries, which deserve membership much more, so now there's no sense to even discuss Morocco.
LoneStranger   Jan 29, 07, 12:24 /  #
Quoting: Amathyst, Post #48
Paul Calf

... Calf means little cow in English
A_america   Sep 27, 07, 22:31 /  #
Okay, if you forgive me, I felt like writing a lot on this topic since I have been doing a lot traveling in the region and reading about the history in the region. Please do share your thoughts. I might learn even more.

Being from the US, I try to see and understand the European region and its "extensions" a little bit better to the best I can when I travel the whole region. So, to my understanding:
1- Turkish people are not European people, generally speaking, but there are a lot of people with European features in Turkey who might very well be ethnic Bosnians, who are slavic Muslims, as well as Macedonians and Albanians. BUT, let us not forget that "Europe" today is not the Europe centuries ago. Ottoman Empire was not only an Asian and Middle Eastern power, but also a European power. They were a lot more powerful people compared to the people on their West up until 17th century. To my readings, they were ahead of today's Europeans in social and all other sciences, state management and efficiency, etc. Thus, they were much more powerful and ahead.

2- I have been in Bosnia and other muslim regions in Balkans. People do not complain about their being Muslims and they do not believe that they were forcefuly converted to Islam by Turks. (By the way, this is only region where I have seen people deeply loving their conquerers, unlike Indians rules by British, etc) They claim that Turks made Islam available in the lands conquered and not forced people to conversions. Especially Bosnian Muslims highlight that after the Turks had left the region they were left alone and their rich and developed Christian European neighbors in Europe just did not even condemn the ethnic cleansing and massacre that was done by other Christians, Serbs and Croats, during the Bosnian war in between 1992-1995.

3- Having English, Italian and German blood in me, as an American, I was quite interested in learning how the Christian Europe was in the middle ages and how my ancestors were. They were not merciful at all. Anti-semitism, opression of churchs, crusades, etc. That is why I was born in America, in the land of free. Regular people were under tight control and opression of lords, the big land owners, the church, the kingdom etc. When we look at the beautifuly architectured old towns in Europe, if we think that everyone were enjoying that beauty and richness we are just wrong. That part of the cities were only for elites. Other people were like slaves in Europe. If you look at Muslim Turks back then, they were in a lot better shape socially. There were equality in society. That is why Islam was spread so rapidly in the region. But later in 17th and 18th centuries, Ottomans became corrupt and weaker, while European Christians moved forward with science and arts.

So, having said this all, I think I have a better understanding of how poeple act and react to conditions around them. Look at all Arab countries. They are run by bunch of idiots who are called kings or presidents who are elected by over 90 percent of their people in elections. We all know how the elections are there, right? As a voter, you have to right your name and address on the ballot. And who support these regimes such as Saudi Arabian royal family. I feel bad as an American, but we do. Why? For our own interests. We say that Saudis are not letting their women drive, they are not democratic people, etc, but we do not invade Saudi Arabia. Why? Because interests are under control. But we do go after Saddam to whom we gave support in the past. I never understood Muslim people before I started traveling the region. I came to a conclusion that it is not Islam that is violent, but people. They have nothing to lose in Palestine for example, because they have nothing for themselves left under the Israeli occupation along with unquestioned full American support. So, let us not blaim religions for the things that are happening in the world. Christians, Muslims and Jews, they all make mistakes.

Could I live with Muslims? Well, I guess the answer is no to a certain extend. Not because of their religon, but they are generally not very easy going people as we are in the West, but it is their Eastern culture. They have hard traditions to follow.
Should they be allowed to Europe? Well, only Turkey is there as a Muslim country and neighbor to Europe. Why not? I understand that there will be a some cultural clash, but Turks are people who adapt.

As far as the Russia is concerned, Russia is a big country. Very very big and with a population of 140 milion. It is almost impossible to Europe to digest this. But I think, Russians are adapting the western lifestyle and systems, too. It just takes time.

Thanks for reading this long reply on this topic. I would love to hear your thoughts and learn.
isisoresThreads: 2
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  Sep 30, 07, 09:40 /  #
Quoting: A_america
but there are a lot of people with European features in Turkey who might very well be ethnic Bosnians, who are slavic Muslims, as well as Macedonians and Albanians. BUT, let us not forget that "Europe" today is not the Europe centuries ago. Ottoman Empire was not only an Asian and Middle Eastern power, but also a European power.

you are absolutely right, for example my fathers family moved turkey from macedonia in 1958. they were under pressure there cause of being muslim turks. and there are many people here like me whose family was from balkans.
Quoting: Amathyst
now you are just talking sh*t and a very annoying muslim, well, these dirty scum muslims killed quite a few people in my country, and they alway shout Jihad, whatever country they are in and it is usually in the context that is threatening.....And as for fighting no I wouldnt since Im a women and women do not fight!

Oh yeah muslims are very lovely people, they carry bombs and kill inocent people and they are always demanding one thing or another! Please dont come to the UK we dont want anymore people like you...we hate you!

oh my god, you are kidding, right? i know you'll not understand but i'm explaining anyway, jihad means protecting religion against attacks. it doesn't mean killing innocent people. it's not fault of islam if terrorists use this word wrong to show their wildness fair. jihad was for defence ok?

also as i see from this forum most of poles are intolerant and don't know anything about turkey (also islam). you have prejudices. i don't want my beautiful country to get in eu if all people there are like you :P
A_america   Sep 30, 07, 16:37 /  #
Quoting: isisores
also as i see from this forum most of poles are intolerant and don't know anything about turkey (also islam). you have prejudices. i don't want my beautiful country to get in eu if all people there are like you :P


Hey "isisores", easy please... First of all, people who write here are not necessarily all Polish people. I do not know if you have been in Poland and got to know Polish people in your life. They are generally very tolerant people, like many Turks I met in Turkey. Polish people are as nationalistic as Turkish people are. They love their country and their culture. They are proud people, again like Turks.

By the way, here in America we think that the American people are the most ethnically mixed people on earth and many people from around the world would think the same. Do you know what I have realized after visiting Turkey? Actually, Turks are the most mixed nation on earth. In America we still have somewhat segregation in society. A white still would not want to live in a black neighborhood, etc. Most whites marry whites, Mexicans marry Mexicans etc. But in Turkey, everyone marries everyone and they do not seem to have any problem among themselves. Well, I guess, other than the Kurdish issue. We Americans might have our finger in that issue as well, because American goverment supports Kurds in Northern Iraq. Anyway, being American feels good. I am proud of my ancestors. I am proud that they founded this great country, but I am just not proud what America is doing around the globe today. I think, we are generally hypocrats.
Anyway, what I was initialy planned to say was that Turks are ethnically very mixed people. I visited a Turkish friend's house in the city of Kastemonu while I was there last year. I have seen his father having very light skin and mother kind of darker. One of his brother has blue eyes, the other green and himself brown. Blonde and black hair in the same family. They told me that as far as they knew they were 100 percent Turks and originally from central Asia. They were very very very hospitable and generous people. I felt like the king there. I met similar people in Poland as well.

By the way, I did not get a chance to visit Eastern Poland, but I have read that there are ethnic Turks there remaing from centuries ago, called Tatars. Again, according to some articles, Polish people never gave them a hard time. They were very strong fighters and fought along with Poles in their causes when needed. In addition, some Poles took refuge in Turkey some place, in recent history and they were well hosted in a place called Polonezkoy in Istanbul... again according to the article I have read some time ago. I took some notes and looking at them now.. I wish I could remember where that article is, so I could post the link here.
adam_co_coThreads: 1
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  Jan 8, 08, 07:24 /  #
oh many Racists here
W&R   Dec 27, 08, 14:32 /  #
Would you please share source which shows us that the Ottomans (Turks) killed Armenians? What is your evidence?

P.S : if you dont have, please check
h t t p : / / w w w .ermenisorunu.gen.tr/english/intro/index.html
WroclawThreads: 74
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  Dec 27, 08, 14:36 /  #
W&R,

Please, consider the date of the post above yours.
W&R   Dec 27, 08, 14:48 /  #
Amathyst:

I say no to Turkey being a memeber of the EU, since there will be hords of poor people coming to the UK.



if you had not killed our countrys' young men&women in Çanakkale (Dardanelles, Gallipoli) or Arabia, we may have been a leading country, not in EU, in world.

What were you doing over a poor countrys' (as you define) lands. Your aim is still having more wealth by presuming 21th centuries potential poor (!) countries.

i guarantee that one day you will beg us to be a member of EU, in that day i just want to tell people who are in same manner like you that "OFF". Those days are not far away. Flag of the justice and happiness country of Turks just dropped over these lands and will raise again over these lands. Nowhere else!!!

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