Turkey, Russia and their place in Europe?

PennBoy:

more of Russia is in Asia than Europe, but most people live in the European part, and they're white people. So yea they should be in EU and all that. But Turkey, i don't think so, they are not white, they're not Christians, they were our enemies for centuries, now they wanna be friends??? it looks like they want something, to freeload in Europe, and get EU money, keep dreamin' shitheads.

makinayThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Dec 27, 08	Dec 27, 08, 21:48 / #
A_america: Should they be allowed to Europe? Well, only Turkey is there as a Muslim country and neighbor to Europe. Why not? I understand that there will be a some cultural clash, but Turks are people who adapt. thanks for your beatiful observation. you are solving our cultures and you can compare Turkey position in EU. yes in Turkey we have very mixed relations. and polonozkoy is very nice example. in Istambul we have a place which called polonozkoy it is meaning polish village and very elite area. so i know every countries include different cultures. In Turkey it is same. our country`s west division similar with europe life style; but east is not same. but it attached local cultures. In Turkey lots of cultures lives. I`m from crimea. and I`m crimean tatar. and my opinion 1 EU christian club :) 2 and our population very high so france and germany dont likes this because number of delegation. 3 and someone said poor people :) if a person have a nice home and job why he wants living in a foreign country :) 4 if we will be a memeber of EU it is only good for travelling and i hope if you want to learn Turkish Islamic life you can look Polish Tatars tatarzy.tkb.pl/index08.php?dzial=l_3 thanks for reading

ciddibiriThreads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Mar 10, 09	Mar 10, 09, 01:12 / #
Only politics use religions for make a enemy foreign people. Than later stupid people start make a war and only this people kill eachother. But politics and religion users always will be rich. Only normal people(citizens) live big hurt... Only normal mothers and fathers lost childs in war !.. Only young kids lost fathers and mothers in wars... in which religion GOD said people "Kill for me other humans" ??? Please someone find this in Kuran or Holy Bible and later show me ! Wake up and see , don't give your life "religion users" and "politics" !

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Mar 15, 09, 12:45 / #
I don't see a problem here, in Russia we already solved this question. We are differ both from european and asian nation. But if you ever will want to decide it for yourself, you should take a look on Rublev's painting. But I want to stress it again, we do not want to be absorbed by EU, because unlike other minor european nations we are all-sufficient. It is you, who need russian attention.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Mar 15, 09, 17:03 / #
ConstantineK: we do not want to be absorbed by EU I have always advocated against Polands entry into the EU. It is not a very considerate framework, for any of the former Communist bloc countries. What I would like to see, is closer ties to Balkan, and Eastern Europe, especially Russia. Economically, culturally, socially, this would be most beneficial for Poland.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Mar 15, 09, 18:20 / #
Agree. And much safer.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 15, 09, 18:21 / #
mutters to self How someone could prefer the Balkans of all things to western Europe is beyond me...what a cesspit...

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Mar 15, 09, 18:39 / #
Actually I do not know about Balkans, but Russia would be a right choice.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,895 Joined: May 17, 07	Mar 15, 09, 19:30 / #
ConstantineK: we do not want to be absorbed by EU I am afraid if Russia enters EU,EU will be absorbed by Russia.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Mar 15, 09, 19:52 / #
Why are you afraid?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Mar 15, 09, 20:24 / #
southern: I am afraid if Russia enters EU,EU will be absorbed by Russia I tend to think it's the other way around... The population of the EU dwarfs those of Russia and with becoming part of the club come duties and laws...Russian society would be much more influenced by european standards, culture and civilization than the other way around..... http://ec.europa.eu/external_relations/russia/index_en.htm http://www.eu-russiacentre.org/we http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/030-51292-068 -03-11-903-20090309IPR51291-09-03-2009-2009-false/default_de.htm

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Mar 15, 09, 20:55 / #
About Turkey. Don't be so american-like "correct", you should tell a truth instead. All your points might be replaced by single one, "Turks are muslims". That is why they cannot be within EU.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: Filios1 Mar 15, 09, 21:35 / #
ConstantineK: Actually I do not know about Balkans Balkan area is one of the last strongholds of Slavic culture, and it would be very beneficial for the greater Slavic population in Poland and elsewhere, to cooperate with them. Balkan's actually have the potential to be robust economically. As well, Balkans is a good source for manpower, in a people very similar to Poles, instead of looking to Asia for this. This would keep the stability of the country, and the country itself would be better adapted to integrate this people. Polish, Russian, Serbian, Ukrainian, Bulgarian's could interact in a closer framework, and aid each other in what the other lacks. Whether that be manpower, or raw resources, or leadership. ConstantineK: Agree. And much safer. There are certain steps that have to be made from both Poland's, AND Russia's standpoint for this to work. The missile defense shield should be blown up, breaking some of the strain between the two govermnents. Transparency. That would be the key. Russia must be able to trust Poland, but Poland must know that Russia's aims are to be mutually beneficial. Not only would such an Eastern European alliance be able to subside without outside interference, it would be able to preserve its cultural/ natural heritage and integrity. Bratwurst Boy: what a cesspit... Economic cesspit, perhaps? But I would choose spiritual wellbeing over financial well being, anyday of the week. But this is a mute point. There would be financial security in such a framework.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 21:37 / #
ConstantineK: All your points might be replaced by single one, "Turks are muslims". That is why they cannot be within EU. This is your point of view not mine :-) I'm ok with muslisms as far as they accept secular law as the main law in society. The problem is that in Turkey it is not so obvious. All of them? "3. last but not least, anyone in EU ready to solve Kurdish issue? I think nobody serious..." What it has to do with religion? they are both muslims, even sunni I think. Filios1: Not only would such an Eastern European alliance be able to subside without outside interference, it would be able to preserve its cultural/ natural heritage and integrity. Filios1, Ukraine has got this kind of cooperation in 90' till about 2004. Ukraine had almost free access to Russian market and gas for 1/3 of market price. Ask yourself would like to switch with them now? (assuming you are a Pole living in Poland...)

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 22:03 / #
Filios1: Ukraine was the master of their own destiny... No, I would not switch with them now. But I believe that they warranted some of their trouble. So, it is a matter of good timing then... It wasn't good moment to stay with Russia in 90' it isn't right moment now. Maybe it will be in some distant future. For now let's live peacufully but in separation please... Too many issues between us, too different legal systems, too many issues in Russia alone... jwojcie: I'm ok with muslisms as far as they accept secular law as the main law in society I have to comment myself... from above sentence there is one conclusion: I'm not ok with majority of muslim world... But I have to admit that personally I'm ok with some Albanians. So let start with them and see how it goes...

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 20:30 / #
I. Turkey Main problems with Turkey are: 1. they trully not decided yet what comes first on social level: secular law or religion 2. one cann't be sure that in two weeks from now the army will not grab the power there 3. last but not least, anyone in EU ready to solve Kurdish issue? I think nobody serious... Because of that they cann't be admited yet to EU... II. Russia don't want to and do not need to join EU so there is no problem... But theoretically if Russia join EU then their only goal would be to destroy it, because EU as a whole is the only force in Europe to negotiate with Russians on the same level... So for our own good NO for Russia in EU, but YES for cooperation. Filios1: What I would like to see, is closer ties to Balkan, and Eastern Europe, especially Russia. Economically, culturally, socially, this would be most beneficial for Poland. ConstantineK: Actually I do not know about Balkans, but Russia would be a right choice. We have tried this a few times, it usually started and ended badly... so no thanks :-) Frankly when I read posts like that I wonder If you people are from another planet or something :-) Don't get me wrong. I'm pro cooperation (at last there is no border conflicts with Russia, that could help...). But talking about one block... let's give ourselves some time, lets say 50 years. Maybe it will turn out, that we will both be happier that way?

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Mar 15, 09, 21:46 / #
jwojcie: Ask yourself would like to switch with them now? Ukraine was the master of their own destiny... No, I would not switch with them now. But I believe that they warranted some of their trouble.

Filios1Threads: 15 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: Filios1 Mar 15, 09, 22:08 / #
jwojcie: I have to admit that personally I'm ok with some Albanians. Now it is Albanians.. soon it will be Turkey, and then later North Africa... When will it end, tell me? When our culture is wiped off the face of Europe? Our Balkan brothers and sisters are already being slowly pushed off their ancient lands. jwojcie: Too many issues between us, too different legal systems, too many issues in Russia alone... I'll agree with this statement. But these issues need to be sorted out, as quickly as possible. Time is running out on us.

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Mar 15, 09, 22:11 / #
jwojcie: they trully not decided yet what comes first on social level: secular law or religion Turkey has a seculer law for last 90 years. Don't really have a problem with secularism other than few extremists. jwojcie: one cann't be sure that in two weeks from now the army will not grab the power there It was true for 30 years ago, fortunately not for now. jwojcie: last but not least, anyone in EU ready to solve Kurdish issue? I think nobody serious... There is also nothing like Kurdish issue. Only a small terrorist organization called PKK. Rest of the Kurds also Turkish citizen. Turkey is already stronger and in better situation than many countries in EU.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Mar 15, 09, 22:14 / #
Filios1: it would be very beneficial for the greater Slavic population in Poland and elsewhere, to cooperate with them. And what would they produce? Porn? Factory workers? I don't mean to piss on your bonfire here but there's not a lot coming out of the Slavic powerhouse of Central Europe these days. Filios1: Balkan's actually have the potential to be robust economically. As well, Balkans is a good source for manpower, in a people very similar to Poles, But they don't. Bulgaria already has to employ foreign labour for the tourist trade because unemployment is so low. It could take decades to retrain the locals and attract research / production facilities to the area.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Mar 15, 09, 22:21 / #
Porn, that's a bit harsh. Sweden, Holland and Germany are streets ahead on this point. The Scots have a lot of factory workers and serve a useful function. Everyone has a role and recognition of this fact is the way forward. They are just extra cogs in the wheel who want to do those jobs. Without them, the managers wouldn't be half as rich, or in business at all.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 22:26 / #
Filios1: Our Balkan brothers and sisters are already being slowly pushed off their ancient lands. Well, we can complain about it but we cann't change history. Ottoman empire change that region and it is what it is. But one thing that EU is good at is to bring peace, and that is exactly what should be done in Balkan region... One look at a map is enough to admit that it is quite logic to get them to EU. I think that from your messianic point of view it would be even fair... From practical point of view it would be good test, Albania is small mostly muslim country. If anything goes wrong it won't do much harm... But I have to add I'm talking about at least 10 year perspective before it could actually happen. PS. I don't really share you point of view regarding "wiping out" of our culture.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 22:42 / #
mephias: Turkey has a seculer law for last 90 years. Don't really have a problem with secularism other than few extremists. I used to think that way, but after conservative AKP won election in 2002 and after Orhan Pamuk trial in 2005 (charges were withdraw I think) I'm on "wait and see" mode. (I think this trial wasn't about religion, but about Armenians, but anyway nothing encouraging) mephias: It was true for 30 years ago, fortunately not for now. Again, I used to think that way, but recently I've read some articles about some arrests in Turkish army... conspiracy charges and stuff like that... mephias: There is also nothing like Kurdish issue. Only a small terrorist organization called PKK. Rest of the Kurds also Turkish citizen. Well, this statement is exactly why we have a problem... Do I need to even comment that ? I wan't. I will only say that I'm affraid, that when USA finally leave Iraq, then there will be war in the north... Then we will see how "there is nothing like Kurdish issue". The farther EU is from that region the better... sorry, but that is the true...

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Mar 15, 09, 23:02 / #
jwojcie: I used to think that way, but after conservative AKP won election in 2002 and after Orhan Pamuk trial in 2005 (charges were withdraw I think) I'm on "wait and see" mode. We also have working democrasy. AKP is elected party they will leave if they won't elected. Orhan Pamuk trial has nothing to do with secularism. He is accused with divisiveness and he's proved to be innocent after trial. I like him and his books. But the trial was completely legal. jwojcie: Again, I used to think that way, but recently I've read some articles about some arrests in Turkey army... conspiracy charges and stuff like that... It's also a good sign. 30 years ago in Turkey no government could dare to arrest a highly ranked soldier. Now it is possible which means a positive improvement. jwojcie: There is also nothing like Kurdish issue. Only a small terrorist organization called PKK. Rest of the Kurds also Turkish citizen. The PKK and Kurdish groups in Iraq completely different. We are only making operations to PKK terrorists. A war in northern Iraq against Iraqi Kurdish citizens is very unlikely. Anyway I also don't think USA will leave Iraq.

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 15, 09, 23:18 / #
mephias: The PKK and Kurdish groups in Iraq completely different. We are only making operations to PKK terrorists. A war in northern Iraq against Iraqi Kurdish citizens is very unlikely. Anyway I also don't think USA will leave Iraq. Ok, I will put aside all issues regarding independence etc... But regarding north Iraq Turkey is in no win situation in my opinion right now (regarding EU entry): First scenario, USA don't leave Iraq, outcome: a) perfectly healthy autonomous Kurdish region in the north, high probability that Kurds in Turkey will demand the same. Are Turks ready to give Kurds this? I don't think so... b) Turkey could and probably will prevent Kurdish autonomous to be perfectly healthy... in effect there will be volatile border region... EU don't need that... Second scenario, USA will leave Iraq, outcome: I think there is high probability that there will be a war... Sorry, I just think that as long as Turks would pretend that there is no Kurdish issue in Turkey we will have a problem... EU don't need some new North Ireland problem but ten times bigger in size...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Mar 15, 09, 23:41 / #
Filios1: spiritual wellbeing Whassat???

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Mar 15, 09, 23:49 / #
jwojcie: a) perfectly healthy autonomous Kurdish region in the north, high probability that Kurds in Turkey will demand the same. Are Turks ready to give Kurds this? I don't think so... b) Turkey could and probably will prevent Kurdish autonomous to be perfectly healthy... in effect there will be volatile border region... EU don't need that... Second scenarion, USA will leave Iraq, outcome It is your assumptions. to establish a Perfectly healthy autonomous Kurdish region could take 1000 thousand years in Northern Iraq. In Turkey most of the Kurdish people Turkey Citizen and happy about it except terrorist organization PKK which has members around 5000 brainwashed terrorists. It is very unlikely scenario and reflects only bad intentions. I am from the southeast of Turkey, First of all again Turks are the majority in that region except one or two cities . Secondly Why would Kurdish Turkey citizens want to be part of a northern Iraq in this fictionous scenario. I know how it is broadcasted on CNN or BBC it has nothing to do with truth. Turkey is much more stronger and stabile than you think or you watch on the above channels. I don't think we will leave any problem to preserve our integrity politically and militarily

jwojcieThreads: 3 Posts: 801 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Edited by: jwojcie Mar 16, 09, 00:32 / #
mephias: Secondly Why would Kurdish Turkey citizens want to be part of a northern Iraq in this fictionous scenario No, what I mean is this: Is Turkey ready to make some sort of autonomy for Kurds inside Turkey? Region where Kurdish is the second official language? After EU entry this type of demands is not fiction at all, I would rather say that this type of demands would be inevitable from Kurdish side. Are you ready to deal with them in peaceful way? Are they ready? PS. mephias: I know how it is broadcasted on CNN or BBC it has nothing to do with truth. I think that the most interesting piece about Kurdish problem I've read in translation from "Der Spiegel"... maybe they have misinterpreted facts too... I'm unable to give the source now :-) mephias: Turkey is much more stronger... I don't deny that. I just wonder how Turkey will intend to use that strength when Kurds will fight Turkish state in Strasburg... (and this is the most optimistic scenario...) Anyway, turbulent times ahead of us, good night :-)

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Edited by: mephias Mar 16, 09, 01:36 / #
jwojcie: No, what I mean is this: Is Turkey ready to make some sort of autonomy for Kurds inside Turkey? Region where Kurdish is the second official language? After EU entry this type of demands is not fiction at al If there were a region where the majority is Kurdish people and they had a historical right to get an autonomy this would be an option. jwojcie: Are you ready to deal with them in peaceful way? Are they ready? Who is them ? We are not a banana republic someone can fictionuosly create ethic divisions in us and divide into pieces. majority of Kurdish people living in Turkey has no intention to get any sort of autonomy. We are not in war with anyone so we don't need to make peace. There is only Turkey citizens and terrorists (not rebels as broadcasted). jwojcie: I just wonder how Turkey will intend to use that strength when Kurds will fight Turkish state in Strasburg... (and this is the most optimistic scenario...) It's neither optimistic nor realistic scenario. I personally want my country to join EU. But if it won't happen it's not a big deal for us. EU seems to be best way but not the only way.

PennBoyThreads: 147 Posts: 3,270 Joined: Dec 7, 08	Mar 16, 09, 03:28 / #
more of Russia is in Asia than Europe, but most people live in the European part, and they're white people. So yea they should be in EU and all that. But Turkey, i don't think so, they are not white, they're not Christians, they were our enemies for centuries, now they wanna be friends??? it looks like they want something, to freeload in Europe, and get EU money, keep dreamin' shitheads.

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 811 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Mar 16, 09, 09:24 / #
PennBoy: more of Russia is in Asia than Europe, but most people live in the European part, and they're white people. So yea they should be in EU and all that. But Turkey, i don't think so, they are not white, they're not Christians, they were our enemies for centuries, now they wanna be friends??? it looks like they want something, to freeload in Europe, and get EU money, keep dreamin' shitheads. At least Turkey has a working democrasy. Russia and many other old soviet country is managed by old KGB agents. It will take time they get used to democratic tradition. Turkey will be stronger in time with or without EU.