Ukrainian Government Steals Gas Already Paid For By Poland.

Seanus:

I'm not forgetting about it, Pawian. I agree with Russia, they pay too low a rate. Russia wanted to double it to $350 but that's still less than the $450 that other EU countries pay. Fair play to Russia, that's life. Russia is in the winning position. However, it does need money for gas supply.

ConstantineK:

May be you will take upon yourself to point us the reliable partner?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Edited by: Moderator Jan 7, 09, 15:18 / #
First of all, I want to stress that this thread has nothing with HONEST Polish people, but only with their government. Today I had a pleasure to listen Mr. Sikorskiy's address. Indeed, it is bathos of stupidity. Ukrainian gov is stealing gas already paid by Poland, but this clown is blaming Russia instead. Truly, idiots MUST pay twice!!!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 15:30 / #
Well, Ukraine were offered a good price. $175 only per x cm3 whereas others were charged around $500. Ukraine SEEM to be creating problems here.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Jan 7, 09, 15:39 / #
Seanus: Well, Ukraine were offered a good price. $175 only per x cm3 whereas others were charged around $500. Ukraine SEEM to be creating problems here. :):):) Don`t forget that Russians want to put up the price of gas for Ukraine, and keep the transit tarrifs through Ukrainian territory the same. Can`t you see that Russian government is playing a game with EU and by creating troubles, is pressing Europe into building Nord Stream? Besides, the new Russian offer is 250$ for 2009, not 175$. The latter was the price in 2008.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Edited by: ConstantineK Jan 7, 09, 15:42 / #
It should be removed from the chain, no doubt. But please pay your attention to polish ministers! Ministers in all european states have enough wit to hold their tongues, but certainly polish cant! I am just interested, how polish land manages to bore such illustrious "wise men"?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Jan 7, 09, 15:42 / #
ConstantineK: Truly, idiots MUST pay twice!!! Leave Ukraine alone. Russia, by cutting off supplies to Europe, proves to be an unreliable partner for Europe. :):):) Who is going to build the Nord Stream with you now???? :):):):)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 15:47 / #
I'm not forgetting about it, Pawian. I agree with Russia, they pay too low a rate. Russia wanted to double it to $350 but that's still less than the $450 that other EU countries pay. Fair play to Russia, that's life. Russia is in the winning position. However, it does need money for gas supply.

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Jan 7, 09, 16:05 / #
Seanus: I'm not forgetting about it, Pawian. I agree with Russia, they pay too low a rate. Russia wanted to double it to $350 but that's still less than the $450 that other EU countries pay. Fair play to Russia, that's life. Russia is in the winning position. However, it does need money for gas supply. OK, Ok, business is business. I understand it. :):):) Russia wants more, let it be so. But still, cutting off paid gas supplies to Europe proves Russia is an unreliable partner. ConstantineK: May be you will take upon yourself to point us the reliable partner? All Europe, including Poland, pays the price demanded by Russians. Doesn`t it mean we are reliable?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:09 / #
I see your point, pawian. Still, it's in keeping with Russia's tradition of game playing and posturing, I've said that all along. It was a wake-up call but it's a shame that innocent, paying customers have to suffer. This is the way of the world, innocent people pay the price (in all ways). It is affecting Polish business. The company I teach at is furious as it is heavily reliant on Russia's gas. One month of no gas would be seen as a tragedy. I think it will be restored within the week tho, Putin and Medvedev have made their point.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:10 / #
Please pawian point us reliable partner! Why you are still buying gas in Russia. And why we should allow Ukraine to steal YOUR gas?

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Jan 7, 09, 16:12 / #
pawian: All Europe UK imports only 2% of its Gas from Russia ( steals the rest from Scotland )

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:15 / #
http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?s ubjectid=549283&story_id=11016430, I'm gonna do this article tomorrow with 2 of my students. Some meaty stuff in that article. There are huge firms who make it their business to perform strategic risk assessments and devise purchasing strategies. It should be a good discussion.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:23 / #
I think that Poland will refuse to buy gas in Russia, szkotij! Thus it will give you some relieve. UK will buy it directly through Russian Nord Stream. Meanwhile, Poland will develop greenfriend energy togethe with here beloved "friend" Ukraine!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:27 / #
As far as I know it was Ukraine who didn't pay and probably won't pay because they are broke (maybe the EU will loan them some). That makes Ukraine unreliable, not Russia and will serve as an extra incentive to build more pipelines...sorry guys, that's how logic works!

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Edited by: Moderator Jan 7, 09, 16:34 / #
To Moderator! Can I protest? By changing the heading of the thread you entirely switched the theme from the polish gov behavior to Ukrainian one! But I meant exactly Sikorskiy's statement! Can you provide a link to the statement? Otherwise people can't talk about specifically that. Also, "Idiots Must Pay Twice" is no good as a title, could be about anything really. ;)

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Edited by: pawian Jan 7, 09, 16:36 / #
Bratwurst Boy: As far as I know it was Ukraine who didn't pay and probably won't pay because they are broke (maybe the EU will loan them some). That makes Ukraine unreliable, not Russia and will serve as an extra incentive to build more pipelines...sorry guys, that's how logic works! To the best of my knowledge, the Ukrainian debt was paid off with a bank loan. Now the argument is about the new price for gas which Ukraine refuses to pay if Russia doesn`t increase payment for the transit of her gas through Ukrainian territory. ConstantineK: Why you are still buying gas in Russia. And why we should allow Ukraine to steal YOUR gas? Why do you put your nose into Polish Ukrainian affairs??? Let Polish authorities deal with Ukrainians themselves. Kostia, don`t you understand, a contract is a contract and you are obliged to fulfill it. Send gas to Europe and let Europe settle things with Ukraine if she steals gas.... ConstantineK: To Moderator! Can I protest? By changing the heading of the thread you entirely switched the theme from the polish gov behavior to Ukrainian one! But I meant exactly Sikorskiy's statement! Complain to Putin about it. :):):):):) Just a joke, no offence meant.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:43 / #
Nay pawian! We cannot for the sake of your well-being! Even if you don't want to take care about your gas, we will do it instead.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:51 / #
In defense of Russia, I don't think Ukraine coughed up in full. They need to make more payments according to the sources I have read (no, not Russian press). Against Russia, they need to remain consistent. I think it was Miller of Gazprom that said that Ukraine should make reparatory payments directly proportional to the amount that they stole. There are ways to do that, Russia. The most obvious of them being a court of law. Vindication, anyone?

pawianThreads: 90 Posts: 5,387 Joined: May 30, 08	Jan 7, 09, 16:54 / #
ConstantineK: Nay pawian! We cannot for the sake of your well-being! Even if you don't want to take care about your gas, we will do it instead. :):):) Imagine the police who takes your car so that it won`t be stolen from you...... :):):):):)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 7, 09, 16:58 / #
Gazprom will. I heard that the decision is already approved. That is why the independent counters were invited.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jan 7, 09, 17:01 / #
How long is the gas gonna remain cut off? What is the Russian press saying about this, CK?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 7, 09, 17:13 / #
Pawian! You perfectly aware that we just preserve your property from thief. Certainly you will come into your own, may be by the summer. Just wait please.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 8, 09, 02:20 / #
ConstantineK: You perfectly aware that we just preserve your property from thief. Just as you prevented Poland from being invaded by foreign armies by, er, invading Poland and stationing your own troops in Poland?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 8, 09, 06:31 / #
To Moderator: Sure, you know that I cannot provide you with such link. This is only my perception of his statement. Certainly Sikorskiy never have said that he is idiot and want to pay twice for gas, well, but in the same time we are perfectly aware about his stupidity, isn't it? Everybody knows that Ukrainians gov steals polish gas, but very few knows that polish gov approves it because of their idiotic sense of solidarity! To Harry: Do you call in question the fact that Russian troops had preserved Poland from incursion of american one ?

ukpolskaThreads: 51 Posts: 2,238 Joined: Oct 23, 06 MEMBER	Jan 8, 09, 07:28 / #
ConstantineK: Do you call in question the fact that Russian troops had preserved Poland from incursion of american one ? At what cost? Russia caused Poland to have social economic stagnation for over 40 years, so don't come on here painting a different picture to factual criminal acts of Russia.

RyszardThreads: - Posts: 123 Joined: Aug 7, 07	Jan 8, 09, 07:37 / #
The facts (and my comments below): 1. Russia claims that Ukraine didn't pay all the money for the gas in 2008, while Ukraine says it's otherwise - that they did pay all. While it is unclear who is saying the truth, accusing Ukraine for not paying is suspecting them for suicidal tendences - especially after the lesson learned in 2006 (and in 2007 with Belarus) It is highly unlikely that due to the crisis Ukraine didn't pay because they didn't have that money. You may be living in poverty, but you simply must have this money reserved in budget to pay - especially if you know that you're buying it from crazy seller who first shoots then asking questions. 2. Russia demanded higher price for the gas this year - raising it from 170US$ to 250US$. Ukraine said they can afford only 200US$. The Russian answer was then raising their offer to 450US$. Can you describe such stance in other words than confrontational? And what about rising the price for gas in the middle of crisis - when all energetic resources prices are falling deep deep down? 3. After Russian demands for higher gas prices, Ukraine demanded higher transit prices. This time Gazprom answer was quick and sound - the transit prices are unnegotiatable. Double standards, anyone? 4. Yesterday Gazprom shutdown the gas completely. Yet, it didn't prevent them from denying this fact and lying about Ukrainians stealing the gas whole day... until mr. Putin finally admited that yes, they've shut the pipe down. In other words, Gazprom lied. Since when Gazprom and Russia lie, mr. Putin? Only since yesterday, or maybe a little bit longer? 5. If Ukraine was really stealing the gas, why Russia didn't ask EU for their inspectors earlier, to show them that Russia indeed is pumping what's contracted but thieves from Ukraine are stealing it and then shut down the pipeline? Think about the PR consequences, how it would be profitable to Russia (and how devastating it'd be for Ukraine) if such thing only happened. The only possible answer why Russia didn't do so is because... because with Ukrainian transit was everything fine! And since begining it was Russia who was reducing the gas delivery, not Ukraine. Summary: the gas conflict is total compromitation of Russia. Cutting the gas deliveries and taking half of Europe as hostages is clearly showing the world that Russia is not trustworthy partner for any serious business. If EU doesn't want to be either hostage or direct slave of Russian imperialistic gas politics she should immediately cancel all their cooperation in new Russian gas pipeline projects and put all the resources in building the alternative ways of supply as - for example - Nabucco. ps. to moderator: if I may suggest thinking twice in the future when choosing the topic titles...

MatyjaszThreads: 2 Posts: 1,786 Joined: Jul 20, 06	Jan 8, 09, 08:11 / #
ukpolska: At what cost? Russia caused Poland to have social economic stagnation for over 40 years, so don't come on here painting a different picture to factual criminal acts of Russia. That was a tongue-in-cheek statement, ukpolska. Don't take Kostia too seriously, he is a joker. :)

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Jan 8, 09, 08:19 / #
Oh Rich, Unfortunately I don't have enough time and ability to formulate my thoughts in such expended way as you did. I just want to remark that market prices are about 500 usd. Tell me please, why Ukraine should be the exception? 500 minus transportation rent = 450 usd, do you think it is foul?

RyszardThreads: - Posts: 123 Joined: Aug 7, 07	Edited by: Ryszard Jan 8, 09, 09:23 / #
And the average european transit rate is 3.5USD, tell me please why Ukraine should be the exception? Because today they get only half of it (1.7USD). Besides, let us not forget that majority of their gas Ukraine is buying from central asia, which is worse but also cheaper than Russian one. So why they should pay for that the same price as for more expensive Russian gas?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 8, 09, 09:30 / #
Matyjasz: Don't take Kostia too seriously, he is a joker. :) No, he's a twat. Only a twat would claim that the USSR saved Poland from a US invasion.