If USA and EU can, why Russia wouldn`t spread democracy? What Poles think?

Arsenn:

Hi!I have heard connected recent russian apologies to Katin event,

Arsenn:

Katin's victims descents have wrote application to Europian Court in order to claim and obtain financial compensations from Russia's so high stated figures.It may prove how far sensere Russia gone.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Sep 21, 09, 09:06 / #
Being aware of historical Polish-Russian antagonisms but also being aware of Polish-Russian mutual connections, i would like to see what Poles (and other people of Polishforums) think about eventual new Russian role in the Europe and world. It is obvious, Russia recupirate as world power and there are different oppinions about that. i mean, we are all aware of EU/USA efforts to spread democracy, using all kind of methods and tools. What then, if Russia try to do the same or similar?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Sep 21, 09, 09:23 / #
Crow: i mean, we are all aware of EU/USA efforts to spread democracy Bit of a disaster as it only tries to spread democracy by invading countries for their resources. Plus Bush's Florida trick wiki and Ireland voting again on the Lisbon treaty (here) makes it clear we are not true democracies to begin with. I think we need to re-establish democracy before having the audacity to enforce it upon other nations and even then it is not a good idea. As for Russia, where would you like them to 'spread democracy' Crow?

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 21, 09, 09:31 / #
SeanBM: As for Russia, where would you like them to 'spread democracy' Crow? nothing specific. It was general question

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Sep 21, 09, 09:38 / #
Crow: nothing specific. It was general question I think democracy should be encouraged but not by use of armies but through education, diplomacy and business by all countries, not just Russia.

szczeciniakThreads: 5 Posts: 119 Joined: Sep 8, 09	Sep 21, 09, 09:47 / #
as long as russia goes and spreads democracy to the easter side of Europe, not to the western side. let them go!!!! i hope they stop in alaska:-? we know what russian democracy is able to do! iam sure they will have a long conversation at chine/ russina border A former lieutenant colonel of the KGB/FSB, Litvinenko wrote a book titled Blowing Up Russia: Terror From Within. During an interview with Rzeczpospolita in July 2005 he explained that al Qaeda’s number two man, Ayman al-Zawahiri was trained by the FSB (KGB) in Russia along with other al Qaeda leaders. According to Litvinenko, “[there is] only one organization which has made terrorism the main tool of solving political problems.” And that organization, he said, “is the Russian special services.” The KGB trained terrorists all over the world. “The specially trained and prepared agents of the KGB,” said Litvinenko, “have organized murders and explosions, including explosions on tankers, the hijacking of passenger jets, attacks on diplomats, as well as state and commercial organizations worldwide.” Litvinenko added: “The bloodiest terrorists of the world were or are agents of the KGB-FSB. They are well known [like] Carlos Ilyich Ramiros, nicknamed ‘the Jackal,’ the late Yassir Arafat, Saddam Hussein … [and others].” According to Litvinenko, “All of them were trained by the KGB, received money from there, weapons and explosives….” nice, nice democratic power ps the book is very informative

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 21, 09, 10:12 / #
szczeciniak: we know what russian democracy is able to do! hardly that we know what Russian `democracy is able to do`. In time when Russia oppresed Poland, Russia wasn`t democracy and, what i know, Russia never said that doing so in the name of democracy. They had other explanations on the other side, USA and EU spread `democracy` and it is questionable are they democracies... and, while we talk, USA and EU continuing to attack suvereign countries, all in the name of democracy. Now, Russia can choose to spread democracy if Russia evolve in democratic country or Russia just can start to do the same what USA and EU already doing- conqer suvereign nations in the name of democracy. We shall see, what would be path of new Russia It is even philosophical question- Should be priority for truly (!) democratic country to spread democracy or to choose not to interfere in political evolution of other countries? Of course, democratic country affecting reality already by the fact that exist as democracy. After all, we all affecting reality, this way or another

Arsenn	Sep 21, 09, 13:14 / #
Hi!I have heard connected recent russian apologies to Katin event,that Katin's victims descents have wrote application to Europian Court in order to claim and obtain financial compensations from Russia's so high stated figures.It may prove how far sensere Russia gone.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Sep 21, 09, 15:37 / #
Arsenn: Hi!I have heard connected recent russian apologies to Katin event, valuable comment, indeed way Russia deal with Katin issue would test Russian society Arsenn: Katin's victims descents have wrote application to Europian Court in order to claim and obtain financial compensations from Russia's so high stated figures.It may prove how far sensere Russia gone. it is good that people show interest while i can agree that Russian people can`t be blamed in general for the crimers commited by communist Soviet leadership, it is fact that on terain ethnic Russians were involved in murdering of Poles. i do believe that murdered Poles wasn`t killed because they were Poles but as communist warning to so called `class enemies`. Also, it is truth that crime wasn`t commited in the name of Russia and Russian people but, crime happened it is fact and ethnic Russians were involved, as i said. Russia should pay compensations. No question about that

mephiasThreads: 15 Posts: 812 Joined: Nov 14, 08 MEMBER	Edited by: mephias Sep 21, 09, 17:36 / #
SeanBM: I think democracy should be encouraged but not by use of armies but through education, diplomacy and business by all countries, not just Russia Exactly. Also western world is not trying to spread democracy but they are at least capable of applying it to their own citizens unlike Russia. SeanBM BTW Russia is history now :). (This is neither about thread nor about real world )

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Sep 21, 09, 18:18 / #
Crow i dont know whether you're serious or is it some long running practical joke but try to make one thread a week, not one thread an hour, its getting old.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 21, 09, 18:43 / #
It's just not their way, Crow. Why should we impose our values on them anyway? It's not like we run perfect democracies. They may find that they have greater controls under their current system.

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Sep 21, 09, 19:39 / #
Crow: If USA and EU can, why Russia wouldn`t spread democracy? What Poles think? For one simple reason, Russia was never democratic in it's entire history, I'm not entirely sure if they know what that means. What I mean is that the ruling elites even today although talking of democracy act like “Tsar” and the rest of society longs for the “Tsar”. Although there is a small element of Russian society that may truthfully be considered of modern progressive thought and be capable of even understanding what that term means, the desire to subjugate all around them under their leadership or rather dictatorship (take your pick) is just too great to resist. Their days of Empire building are not over. As long as they can't reject that thought they simply can't spread democracy. All you have to do is to look at their overall policy towards their Slavic neighbours to see that. They don't view them as neighbours and friends, they see it as part of Russia itself and not only their Territory but people themselves rightfully belongs to them. Like in the song РУССКИЙ МАРШ by Бичевская "Русские идут и зажигаются огни, Русские идут напомнить русским, кто они" as for the term "русским" все равно. Their idea of Pan-slavonism is quite different then what you or I may have in mind.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 22, 09, 09:28 / #
mephias: Also western world is not trying to spread democracy but they are at least capable of applying it to their own citizens unlike Russia. Western world? you mean, geographical West or West as civilization? If you point on Western civilization, you probably point on Slavic world. If so, take Poland for example. Polish PM Tusk recognized separation of Kosovo from Serbia hijacking Polish President and complete Polish nation. See, Poland still isn`t capable to apply democracy. For higher goal (as if) Tusk ignore Polish President and Polish people. or take Serbia for example. Majority of Serbian citizens dram of some Slavic integrations while governmant speaks only of EU and NATO. Absolute downfall of democracy Russia as Russia, of corse still isn`t democratic. If Russia adopted democracy, Russia wouldn`t colaborate with Germany. Well, Germany wouldn`t even exist

BabinichThreads: 1 Posts: 1,054 Joined: May 26, 08	Sep 22, 09, 11:39 / #
Crow: we are all aware of EU/USA efforts to spread democracy You'd be better off spreading manure. :')

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,953 Joined: May 17, 07	Sep 21, 09, 23:45 / #
Crow: why Russia wouldn`t spread democracy? Bring us some democracy.And some putinism.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	Sep 22, 09, 01:22 / #
It's probably what Russia will start doing as part of the Eurasia-Americas Super-Pact that I see just on the horizon. They will try to take over the entire world. After this will be the "one world govt" you read so much about.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Sep 22, 09, 01:35 / #
In name of democracy? Sure but not in Europe ;)

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09	Sep 22, 09, 07:47 / #
Crow: If USA and EU can, why Russia wouldn`t spread democracy? What Poles think? same reason why US is unlikely to spread Communism...

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Crow Sep 22, 09, 17:27 / #
Babinich: You'd be better off spreading manure. :') in any case, key word is `spreading` ;) Juche: same reason why US is unlikely to spread Communism... don`t say it twice

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	Edited by: PlasticPole Sep 22, 09, 17:32 / #
Crow, I have faith in you in this matter. You can convince them, I'm sure.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 22, 09, 17:36 / #
PlasticPole: Crow, I have faith in you in this matter. You can convince them, I'm sure. actualy, i am convinced

Marek11111Threads: 49 Posts: 1,953 Joined: Aug 6, 09	Sep 22, 09, 19:05 / #
this is a joke right? U.S. and E.U. oh and Russia spreading democracy, just like Hitler was spreading democracy.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 22, 09, 19:23 / #
Or the EU effectively telling the Irish that they have to vote yes. If not, we'll give you sweeteners through Protocols till you say yes. Some democracy that is when no isn't respected. Russia is a different ballgame entirely. It would be turned upside down by democracy. Crow, look up interviews with Garry Kasparov, he has done several of them on why Russia isn't and almost can't be democratic. One with a Dutch guy and a classic 55-min interview with an American. If anyone can explain why, it's Kasparov.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 22, 09, 19:58 / #
Marek11111: just like Hitler you mean EU and USA ? when (if) Russia starts to spread, we shall see Seanus: Or the EU effectively telling the Irish that they have to vote yes. If not, we'll give you sweeteners through Protocols till you say yes. Some democracy that is when no isn't respected. hey, its good for Ireland. EU sent mujaheedines when Serbs resisted Seanus: Crow, look up interviews with Garry Kasparov, he has done several of them on why Russia isn't and almost can't be democratic. i hope Kasparov is wrong

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Sep 22, 09, 20:17 / #
Seanus: Or the EU effectively telling the Irish that they have to vote yes. If not, we'll give you sweeteners through Protocols till you say yes. Some democracy that is when no isn't respected. Democracy is one thing, but democracy is usually the dictatorship of the majority. I think the EU is right to tell the Irish to vote yes, first of all, the Irish owe nearly their entire current existence to the EU and secondly, we can't have something fall through, something most memberstates actually want, because it's a good thing, because of one single country that has never experienced an economic recession before because they were always on the bottom? I don't think so. I think personally that the EU should come with sanctions agains Ireland if they vote no again. Maybe Ireland should be forced to pay those 80 billion back to the EU they received while being the richest country in the EU, next year. Sorry, but I love Ireland and the Irish, but they have to vote yes. It's best for everybody. M-G (tiens)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 22, 09, 21:18 / #
I disagree. The Irish most definitely don't owe their current existence to the EU. They experienced boom&bust like Britain has done for so long but they'd be a stable economic power in the absence of the EU. Democracy is an expression of the will of the people, M-G, and if they decide against the Lisbon Treaty then so be it. It's their voice. As RN has pointed out, Ireland has given out a lot to immigrants, perhaps as a response to some perceiving them as only takers. International repayments is a notoriously complicated and loaded issue. Forcing them to repay is not in the interests of the EU collectively. Look carefully enough and you will find imbalances and discrepancies in payments. Why not point the finger at the system? I felt, a long time back in my student days, that the system was flawed and geared towards expected, almost forced, ayes. The EU, given its numerous pillars and inherent complexity, cannot be merely confined to being a yes-man's club.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Sep 22, 09, 22:00 / #
Seanus I am not so sure about that. The circumstances in which the Irish boom took place were most definitively created with huge help from the EU. And what is the Irish boom? Basically it's arteficial: tempting big corporation to your country by giving them tax-exemptions. As soon as these will be removed, you can predict what will happen: they will leave again to the next country which promises them same. And this is exactly what you see happening now: quite some smaller companies have left the country already, but the major blow came from the big guys leaving: IBM, Xerox, Oracle, MS (partly), Dell and most recent, UPS. If this drain of companies continues, I'm really not sure if Ireland can survive that on its own. Ireland could only create these circumstances with the safety net of the EU underneath them. What will happen if that safety net is gone? Looking at the Irish government I fear the worst: they already are panicking because there is no money left at all, due to the money they pumped into the banks and a couple of other factors; the country is virtually bancrupt. Add to this the 80 Billion they have to start paying back to the EU as per 2012, they're in a sh*tload of trouble. How they are going to solve that? And if it's without the EU? The EU will want to their money back and should Ireland leave the EU, I am sure there will be import-barriers thrown up and the like. But I don't think she will back out anyway. There is no Irish interest in leaving the EU. Another reason why I don't see Ireland become a stable economic power without the EU is the fact that there is no sufficient infrastructure. The government, kinda blinded by the sudden prosperity, "forgot" to invest in a decent and solid infrastructure. Just as they raked in the money, the time was perfect to do just that. But instead they invested heavily in the building sector. All based on the service segment of the market. "Service segment" is in this case helpdesks and callcentres. There is hardly any substantial producing plant in Ireland. Yes there are some, but it's all too few to carry the whole country. Why not invest in industries that are not dependent on the building sector, so that if this sector comes crumbling down, at least you have the other segments left to maintain the economic level. And I already wrote that callcentres and helpdesks are the industries that most easy evaporate anyway. Actually, the treaty of Lisbon makes it pssbl for memberstates to leave the EU. Also, it makes one commercial policy pssbl, which will mean that some countries will get more expensive and others, like Ireland, will get cheaper as it will have to level at some point. There have always been countries who have done more for the EU than others and I think it's only fair that the countries who have done the most, will get the most. Because Ireland may now be complaining about the Eu, with all its flaws, but it owes a lot to that very wacky system and I just think it's time to show some gratitude. Concluding: I think it was inexperience with sudden wealth that killed the Celtic Tiger. And although I don't think Ireland will fall back to the level they were on not even 20 years ago, I think they will make (and already are making) a serious downfall and it will take other countries to help them out of the inevitable bancrupcy they inflicted upon themselves. M-G (but maybe that's Ireland's role in the world: drinking and making music. After all, they are the only country in the world with a musical instrument as their weapon)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 22, 09, 22:12 / #
Yeah, the EU was the spur but you have to look at how fertile Ireland was for development anyway. You forget the resilience of the Irish, M-G. They are a gritty people and dig their heels in come tough times. They don't need those firms for survival, they were just money generators. I think you paint a very false picture of Ireland in terms of how they are faring. They are not near bankruptcy. Their big problem was overspending. This will be a burden for them but that is not cause for panic. If they can show that the money is being spent on that for which it was intended then they are sailing in a boat which isn't going to capsize. Ask an expert, SeanBM. Let's see if he shares your concerns.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Sep 22, 09, 22:28 / #
Seanus: They are not near bankruptcy. Oh yes they are. Nearer than you think. They created a special new institution Nama to try and get some of the 90 Billion back they invested in fraudulous investments. They need that money back. They spread out promised subsidies to farmers over 3 or 4 years instead of paying them the whole sum at once, because they can't pay it at once anymore. I don't underestimate the resilience of the Irish ppl, and I am sure they don't need the firms for survival, but it will be a major step back. And I am not so sure that the current generation of Irish will want that. But indeed, I am concerned because I have grown to love this country and its ppl, but if you look at how they get f*cked over by their own government, it's a crying shame. What I meant with panicking was: there is a new levy (or is it levee?) introduced as per 1 January 2009. 1% of your gross income will be deducted extra. In March or April there were budget talks in the Dail. It turned out that the need was much greater than could be covered by that 1 per cent, so they announced that, besides the usual price increase of the cigarettes, the levy would be increased to 2%. How do I know the need was high? Because this 2% were not taken into effect on the first of the next month or the month after, no, the tax-rise was going into effect at 12:00 that night, midnight. I received two payslips that month. One with the old levy and one with the new :) But let's see indeed if SeanBM thinks likewise or has additions. M-G (doesn't want to make it more black than it already is. But it is kinda black)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 22, 09, 22:35 / #
Levee is a word LZ used. Levy is right. Poland has the 1% deduction too. 1% of my tax goes to a charity of my choosing. I didn't hear about NAMA. Wow, 90 billion. That was sth I hadn't factored into my considerations. Well, maybe you are right then. I'm not a self-professed expert on the Irish economy or economics in general. It was a first year subject for me at Uni and I sucked big time at it. Economics and Statistics were bare passes, maybe a 2.2 for Economics. All my other subjects were 2.1's or 1st's. You win, partner ;)