Withrdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq or not?

"
Polish

Nine Polish soldiers have been killed in action and one was killed in a vehicle accident."

Poland will send 400 more troops to Afghanistan.

Poland will bolster its 1,600-strong contingent in Afghanistan with 400 more troops to help improve security in the leadup to an August election there, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Tuesday.

The week started off with tragedy. Tuesday brought news that another Polish soldier was killed in Afghanistan, a 32-year-old captain whose patrol had been ambushed and overwhelmed by a larger Taliban force.

Should Poland Send Additional Troops to Afghanistan?

The War in Afghanistan, which began on October 7, 2001 as the U.S. military operation Operation Enduring Freedom, was launched by the United States with the United Kingdom in response to the September 11 attacks. The war has a triple purpose:
1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself,
2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations,
3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK.

- Poland will bolster its 1,600-strong contingent in Afghanistan with 400 more troops to help improve security in the leadup to an August election there, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Tuesday.

time means:

Five votes and no answers. I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer.

Peace and humans just does not go, history seems to point this out.

time means:

Oh yes welcome back seanbm.

Wroclaw Boy:

Hey SeanBM nice to see you back

Wroclaw Boy:

how about maintaining troop strength to surpress the enemy.

Seven Polish soldiers sit in a military jail in Poznan, accused of killing six Afghan civilians, including women and children, in the village of Nangarkhel in August. Whether the mortar rounds that killed the Afghans were a result of bad aim, bad orders or bad intentions remains to be determined.

Grzegorz_:

until there is peace.

szkotja2007:

Its a war worth winning.
Hooora

The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline is a proposed natural gas pipeline... The pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India. Proponents of the project see it as a modern continuation of the Silk Road. The Afghan government is expected to receive 8% of the project's revenue.

SeanBM:
How will you know when there is peace?.
Take that example of the six Afghan civilians who were killed, lets even say that it was a total accident.
It is still going to instil fear and anger in the local civilian population.

SeanBM:

sending more troops over

klakak:

I am sure that 99% of the civilians killed were by accident. Accidents happen, no matter how hard you try to prevent them. Drunk drivers kill many people, not being safe at work, ect ect, all are unfortunate accidents that happen. Many more civilians are murdered by their own people that are in these terrorist organizations by suicide bombings in market places, homes, busy streets, ect.

klakak:

Many more civilians are murdered by their own people that are in these terrorist organizations by suicide bombings in market places, homes, busy streets, ect.

time means:

it needs more frontline troops, the totals include a lot of r.e.m.fs.

SeanBM:
These accidents are the result of a foreign armed force occupying a country not a drink driving "incidents".
I do see a marked difference, Polish soldiers do not have to be there.

SeanBM:
There are many bad people in the world doing harm to there own people but I do not see Polish soldiers in Zimbabwe, for an example.

SeanBM:

1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself,
2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations,
3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK.

klakak:

I have often wondered why we, America, went into Iraq,

SeanBM:

There are many bad people in the world doing harm to there own people but I do not see Polish soldiers in Zimbabwe, for an example.

SeanBM:

Information is still the most expensive and deadly "weapon" known to man.

klakak:

The troops are trying to help the people there

klakak:

Because the bad people in Zimbabwe aren't a threat to Poland

plk123:

so the score is 0/3.. looks like the terrorist are winning.

Pan Kazimierz:

Would you like to? Would you consider it a good thing if it helped save the lives of a good many innocent civilians?

ShelleyS:

Why? Because its not our war,

Wroclaw Boy:

Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell?

Wroclaw Boy:

Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell?

Wroclaw Boy:
Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell?

SeanBM:
Is Afghanistan a threat to Poland?.

SeanBM:
If it is peace that everyone wants, why do they send soldiers?.

klakak:

No, but the Taliban might be.

klakak:

I don't think diplomacy has worked with the Taliban and other terrorist groups.

The war has a triple purpose:
1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself,
2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations,
3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK.

SeanBM:

After the bombings on the Edgeware road, there was a Muslim woman covered in that dress that you can not see anything about them (hijab?).
But it was not a typical one, it was the Union Jack.
Her message was clear, I am British and I am Muslim and this is how she showed her support to those that suffered, in my opinion.

ShelleyS:

(hijab only covers the head)

ShelleyS:

it was probably some British (English) person wearing this burqa to make a point...

SeanBM:

Maybe, I did not lift up her dress.

szkotja2007:

Its a war worth winning.
Hooora

polishcanuck:

it is afterall why we're there!

SeanBM:

Tell us more, what is the deal Poland got?.

SeanBM:

Tell us more, what is the deal Poland got?.

FredChopin:

help in case some creepy bears or other vermin come across their border.

FredChopin:

Oh, they can be trusted this time, really.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 17:28 / #
Casualties.org " Polish Nine Polish soldiers have been killed in action and one was killed in a vehicle accident." This link shows a lot of countries' death toll. Coalition casualties in Afghanistan --------------------------------------------------------------------- Poland will send 400 more troops to Afghanistan. Poland will bolster its 1,600-strong contingent in Afghanistan with 400 more troops to help improve security in the leadup to an August election there, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Tuesday. From here ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ The week started off with tragedy. Tuesday brought news that another Polish soldier was killed in Afghanistan, a 32-year-old captain whose patrol had been ambushed and overwhelmed by a larger Taliban force. Should Poland Send Additional Troops to Afghanistan? "From the Krakow Post[/url] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- The War in Afghanistan, which began on October 7, 2001 as the U.S. military operation Operation Enduring Freedom, was launched by the United States with the United Kingdom in response to the September 11 attacks. The war has a triple purpose: 1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself, 2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations, 3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK. Wiki ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------ - Poland will bolster its 1,600-strong contingent in Afghanistan with 400 more troops to help improve security in the leadup to an August election there, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said on Tuesday. From here ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- I am a Conscientious objector (click for wiki). This youtube link shows how this man became a Conscientious Objector "How I Became a Conscientious Objector". ------------------------------------------------------------ Please when you vote specify why you have chosen that option. Also the last option "Send as many troops as is necessary until there is peace", Please specify when and how you think peace, if it is obtainable, will be.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Aug 14, 09, 18:04 / #
Five votes and no answers. I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer. Peace and humans just does not go, history seems to point this out. Oh yes welcome back seanbm.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,468 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Aug 14, 09, 18:06 / #
Hey SeanBM nice to see you back, ive voted but not enough categories, how about maintaining troop strength to surpress the enemy.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Aug 14, 09, 18:18 / #
time means: Five votes and no answers. I don't think anyone can give a definitive answer. Peace and humans just does not go, history seems to point this out. That may be the sad truth but it is early days yet?. time means: Oh yes welcome back seanbm. Wroclaw Boy: Hey SeanBM nice to see you back Thanks, it is just a fly in visit ;) Wroclaw Boy: how about maintaining troop strength to surpress the enemy. Is that not the last one?. Everyone seems to keep sending more troops over, so it seems that there are not enough troops to suppress the enemy. -------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe this thread needs a kick start. Seven Polish soldiers sit in a military jail in Poznan, accused of killing six Afghan civilians, including women and children, in the village of Nangarkhel in August. Whether the mortar rounds that killed the Afghans were a result of bad aim, bad orders or bad intentions remains to be determined. An Afghanistan War-Crimes Case Tests Poland’s Commitment to Foreign Missions These men are innocent until proven otherwise. Even in the best case scenario, bad aim (?), six civilians got killed, should Poland continue having soldiers in Afghanistan?.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Aug 14, 09, 18:22 / #
Send as many troops as is necessary until there is peace.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Aug 14, 09, 18:27 / #
Its a war worth winning. Hooora

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 18:33 / #
Grzegorz_: until there is peace. Thanks for replying. How will you know when there is peace?. Take that example of the six Afghan civilians who were killed, lets even say that it was a total accident. It is still going to instil fear and anger in the local civilian population. Imagine it was Poland with another country's armed forces occupying this country. szkotja2007: Its a war worth winning. Hooora The Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline is a proposed natural gas pipeline... The pipeline will transport Caspian Sea natural gas from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan into Pakistan and then to India. Proponents of the project see it as a modern continuation of the Silk Road. The Afghan government is expected to receive 8% of the project's revenue. Where do the other 92% go?. And is this a reason to continue to stay?.

klakakThreads: 7 Posts: 100 Joined: Jun 4, 09	Edited by: klakak Aug 14, 09, 18:40 / #
SeanBM: How will you know when there is peace?. Take that example of the six Afghan civilians who were killed, lets even say that it was a total accident. It is still going to instil fear and anger in the local civilian population. There will probably never be total peace anywhere, but taking out the Taliban/terrorist groups will surely help stabilize the country. There are those that believe this is a war worth fighting. It is very unfortunate that there are civilians killed, but even so, as some say, it's the cost of war, and it's a heavy price. I am sure that 99% of the civilians killed were by accident. Accidents happen, no matter how hard you try to prevent them. Drunk drivers kill many people, not being safe at work, ect ect, all are unfortunate accidents that happen. Many more civilians are murdered by their own people that are in these terrorist organizations by suicide bombings in market places, homes, busy streets, ect. So I think there is more fear of religious hate murders than accidental killings from troops that are trying to protect you.

time meansThreads: 9 Posts: 2,306 Joined: Apr 21, 08	Edited by: time means Aug 14, 09, 18:41 / #
SeanBM: sending more troops over it needs more frontline troops, the totals include a lot of r.e.m.fs.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 18:47 / #
klakak: I am sure that 99% of the civilians killed were by accident. Accidents happen, no matter how hard you try to prevent them. Drunk drivers kill many people, not being safe at work, ect ect, all are unfortunate accidents that happen. Many more civilians are murdered by their own people that are in these terrorist organizations by suicide bombings in market places, homes, busy streets, ect. These accidents are the result of a foreign armed force occupying a country not a drink driving "incidents". I do see a marked difference, Polish soldiers do not have to be there. klakak: Many more civilians are murdered by their own people that are in these terrorist organizations by suicide bombings in market places, homes, busy streets, ect. Good point, the Taliban are bad bastards, no doubt there. There are many bad people in the world doing harm to there own people but I do not see Polish soldiers in Zimbabwe, for an example. i thought it was very poiniant what that guy said on the youtube link. time means: it needs more frontline troops, the totals include a lot of r.e.m.fs. Why?. Information is still the most deadly "weapon" known to man. Front line troops are only usfull with good intel, no?.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Aug 14, 09, 20:53 / #
SeanBM: Maybe, I did not lift up her dress. I should bloody hope not ;0) We have laws against that kind of thing, by the way, they wear clothes under it...I saw a girl the other day with one on and she had a pair of Nike air on and what looked like a pair of skinny jeans (obviously could only see the bottom...She was in Debenhams buying a dress from Kookia...??? The mind boggles.... This is off topic, but what the hell. When I was at college I worked in a nice concession in Debs and a guy (middle eastern)came in with his wife in the Burqa and was looking at the dresses, you know he wouldn’t even let his wife try the dresses on, he asked me to model them for him..Needless to say I did because I got bonus (not commission - it worked on what the concession sold not the individual) - so there I was modelling little black slinky dresses for some woman dressed in a blanket - she didn’t even get a say! It some cases woman dont even get the chance to say "ya or nay"....its mans world. Back on topic. The war against the taliban is futile, the Russians lost and even with several countries fighting against them, we will not win, they have a reason, our soldiers dont, thats the big difference.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 14, 09, 20:57 / #
Pull out, Talibans are thugs and murderers but not an international threat, i dont know what USA is playing at but we shouldnt have our soldiers die for their games.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Aug 14, 09, 23:33 / #
FredChopin: Oh, they can be trusted this time, really. Umiesz liczyć licz na siebie, war in Afganistan is primarily a US stunt also.

klakakThreads: 7 Posts: 100 Joined: Jun 4, 09	Edited by: klakak Aug 14, 09, 18:52 / #
SeanBM: These accidents are the result of a foreign armed force occupying a country not a drink driving "incidents". I do see a marked difference, Polish soldiers do not have to be there. and drivers that are drunk should not be on the road. The troops are trying to help the people there, drunk drivers are just stupid. SeanBM: There are many bad people in the world doing harm to there own people but I do not see Polish soldiers in Zimbabwe, for an example. Because the bad people in Zimbabwe aren't a threat to Poland or America, or any other country but their own. Sad, but true. I have often wondered why we, America, went into Iraq, but have never bothered with the African nations that need help. I guess we give them food, clothes, and other goods, but that is all probably confiscated on arrival by the government or militia groups. Afghanistan will be hard to prevent such things as accidental killings and complete removal of terrorist groups because the cowards hide amongst the civilians!

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Edited by: plk123 Aug 14, 09, 18:54 / #
SeanBM: 1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself, 2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations, 3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK. so the score is 0/3.. looks like the terrorist are winning. klakak: I have often wondered why we, America, went into Iraq, oil

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Aug 14, 09, 18:57 / #
SeanBM: There are many bad people in the world doing harm to there own people but I do not see Polish soldiers in Zimbabwe, for an example. Would you like to? Would you consider it a good thing if it helped save the lives of a good many innocent civilians? SeanBM: Information is still the most expensive and deadly "weapon" known to man. That only actually holds true in politics where, ironically, people think it is money. Meanwhile, money is the least effective way of influencing government policy, and far more useful than "information" elsewhere. Is the irony delicious or what?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 19:01 / #
klakak: The troops are trying to help the people there Fighting for peace is like having sex for virginity. If it is peace that everyone wants, why do they send soldiers?. klakak: Because the bad people in Zimbabwe aren't a threat to Poland Is Afghanistan a threat to Poland?. plk123: so the score is 0/3.. looks like the terrorist are winning. This is it. 3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK and the rest of the "West". So we are supplying them, seems idiotic to me. Pan Kazimierz: Would you like to? Would you consider it a good thing if it helped save the lives of a good many innocent civilians? As regards Zimbabwe, I think the Africa Union should deal with problems in Africa. I think Africa will never be able to stand on it's own feet and deal with it's problem if we keep interfering but make no mistake, I am not talking against aid but not by military intervention.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Aug 14, 09, 19:41 / #
I voted for a complete withdrawal. Why? Because its not our war, all this war has done is bring trouble to the shores of England. Let Pakistan deal with their own mess. Its the same old story, look what happened in NI, we had and have no right to be there and suffered the consequences on the mainland for being in a country which we had no place to be in. We have trained the Iraqi army and police, let them deal with it on their own with no funding from the west, I dont want inocent blood on my hands. I understand that wars make money (Im talking about the production of related equipment here), but the cost outweighs the profit, 4 more of our boys were buried this week and it saddens me. The majority of the British public dont want it and if we had a vote an alarming percentage would vote NO.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,468 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Aug 14, 09, 19:53 / #
ShelleyS: Why? Because its not our war, Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell?

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Aug 14, 09, 20:01 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell? Locherbie, does that ring any bells? Did we invade any countries then? Also 9/11 was in America, so why are we involved, or were you referring to 7/7? Which came after we invaded Iraq, which was more than likely because we invaded Iraq.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 20:04 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell? Why did they attack?. Do you mean July 2005 London bombings 7/7?. I was living and working on the Edgware road in a very Muslim (little Lebanon) area when those bombs went off underground. Actually moving in there were threats from the Taliban saying they were going o get revenge. I thought they'd never bomb a Muslim, I was wrong. Just something I thought was beautiful. After the bombings on the Edgeware road, there was a Muslim woman covered in that dress that you can not see anything about them (hijab?). But it was not a typical one, it was the Union Jack. Her message was clear, I am British and I am Muslim and this is how she showed her support to those that suffered, in my opinion.

klakakThreads: 7 Posts: 100 Joined: Jun 4, 09	Aug 14, 09, 20:05 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Terrtosrist attacks are our war. 7/11 ring a bell? Mmm yes, it reminds me that I need to go to a 7/11 for a slushy! sorry, bad joke :P but maybe you meant 9/11? SeanBM: Is Afghanistan a threat to Poland?. No, but the Taliban might be. SeanBM: If it is peace that everyone wants, why do they send soldiers?. Maybe we should get rid of police in our own countries as well.. And I don't know (no sarcasm), but I don't think diplomacy has worked with the Taliban and other terrorist groups.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 20:14 / #
klakak: No, but the Taliban might be. Why might the Taliban be a threat to Poland?. I will rephrase this. Do you think that Polish armed forces occupying Afghanistan will prevent or encourage the Taliban to attack Poland?. klakak: I don't think diplomacy has worked with the Taliban and other terrorist groups. In the past 8 years has a military presence worked?. The war has a triple purpose: 1. to neutralise and to destroy Al-Qaeda, and Osama bin Laden himself, 2. to destroy the opium industry in Afghanistan, which supports and finance all Al-Qaeda operations, 3. to stop opium traffic from middle east to US and UK. Wiki

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Aug 14, 09, 20:23 / #
SeanBM: After the bombings on the Edgeware road, there was a Muslim woman covered in that dress that you can not see anything about them (hijab?). But it was not a typical one, it was the Union Jack. Her message was clear, I am British and I am Muslim and this is how she showed her support to those that suffered, in my opinion. I'd really like to believe that she was muslim, but I know the reality more than you do and it was probably some British (English) person wearing this burqa (hijab only covers the head) to make a point...No muslim woman who wears this kind of covering would even know where to get a union flag from.

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Aug 14, 09, 20:30 / #
ShelleyS: (hijab only covers the head) Ah, sorry, I don't know the terminology. Yes it was a Burka. ShelleyS: it was probably some British (English) person wearing this burqa to make a point... Maybe, I did not lift up her dress. What point would an English woman be making?.

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Edited by: polishcanuck Aug 14, 09, 22:59 / #
szkotja2007: Its a war worth winning. Hooora Thank you for posting this Szkocja, it is afterall why we're there!

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,726 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Aug 14, 09, 23:05 / #
polishcanuck: it is afterall why we're there! Tell us more, what is the deal Poland got?.

FredChopinThreads: - Posts: 138 Joined: Jul 26, 09	Edited by: FredChopin Aug 14, 09, 23:11 / #
SeanBM: Tell us more, what is the deal Poland got?. They got to join a nifty little club called NATO. Privileges of membership include help in case some creepy bears or other vermin come across their border. Dues include sending young lads in harms way when the time comes. Whether or not this is the time, that is the debate. Personally, I would like to see more developement of the democratic principles, a broader sense of equality for women, and an effective, strong and loyal Afghan based national Security force. After that time to leave, and provide all the moral support available. After all, you can lead a horse to water.....

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Aug 14, 09, 23:29 / #
SeanBM: Tell us more, what is the deal Poland got?. We send some of the best special forces in Europe and best medium vehicles so they could be killed/destroyed by some paki, we spend milions of dollars on our expedition and in exchange US gives us nuclear weapons, cheap modern armaments and guarantess our safety. Oh they also remove the visa limitation! FredChopin: help in case some creepy bears or other vermin come across their border. Like they helped us in 1939, right?

FredChopinThreads: - Posts: 138 Joined: Jul 26, 09	Aug 14, 09, 23:32 / #
Oh, they can be trusted this time, really.