14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion!

Arien:

spermcell also be a person

cheehaw:

both physically and emotionally, by carrying the child to term, and giving it up for adoption..

ShelleyS:

Id love to know where you get your stats from.

Patrycja19:

ectopic pregnancy is life threatening, should the 14 year old girl go thru with abortion
or should she accept and listen to princple?

Seanus:

There needs to be sth inserted into the law to connect abortion with murder. '1.The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice'

cheehaw:

personal experience for starters..

Patrycja19:

but as shelley pointed out
alot safer now then it was back 50-60 years ago when women went into a trailor in
the back of someones house in the country with no clean/steralized equipment ..

Harry:

Why not trying thinking logically instead of just parotting out what you heard?

If you still can not get it, just look at the first three words of the title of this thread.

ShelleyS:

These are not stats. Personal experience is just that..."personal experience"

cheehaw:

Ectopic pregnancy does not result in a child, hello.

cheehaw:

Five weeks. The embryo is approximately 9mm long. A face develops, with openings for the mouth, the nostrils and eyes

Patrycja says
well since you dont think its a child, why post a picture of a 5 week old embryo
that has a face and nostrils and looks just like a child??

it wont survive if it attaches outside the uterus, but its still a child.
its just that the pregnancy has to end otherwise the mother will die.
[quote=cheehaw]She should listen to her heart.

Patrycja19:

well get two opinions first, i read a article where a woman is sueing because the
doctors dx her as ectopic and she ended the pregnancy then they discovered it was
a mistake.. so yeah, lots of controversy on this subject...

cheehaw:

A doctor's misdiagnosis does not ever make an ectopic pregnancy viable.. a doctors misdiagnosis can only mean it was not an ectopic pregnancy after all.. you seem a bit confused.. the doctor was incompetent according to what you are saying.. not unusual actually.

cheehaw:

No controversy on the subject, quite a bit of confusion on your part though.

cheehaw:

I never said it wasn't a child, you are the one arguing that opinion.

cheehaw:

Ectopic pregnancy does not result in a child, hello.

She should listen to her heart.

Patrycja19:

I do think that medical intervention/not political intervention should be used more
in such cases, and that spiritual intervention should be there to support those who
do have faith and want forgiveness when our lives are interuppted with such horrible
circumstances. and to not condem those who need them most.

cheehaw:

hello. stats are not completely realistic in this area. My 'personal experience', for example, surely was never given a place in any statistical poll.

cheehaw:

a 'legal' abortion, done in a clinic, about 4-6 weeks conception time at most.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Nov 7, 09, 00:55 / #
Arien: spermcell also be a person Of course :) An eggcell is a person, heck a one-molecular cell is a person. What am I saying: an atom, a neutron is a person! All blessed by the holy spirit of god almighty in the gloria of halleluyah! Let's embrace all sperm cells and all eggcells and all atoms and neutrons and let them join in our neverending celebration of the god almighty! Halleluyah, kumbayah and all the rest! Amen! Ps: and while we're not looking, the priest touches the 8 year old choirboys! >^..^< M-G (sermon spermon)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 7, 09, 01:26 / #
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snu7Z93UDDI, a nice little account from this Irishman. Personhood is again far from clear for the reasons he states. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLTTdjz8ft0, this sums it up that you come up short, GS. A beautiful synopsis of the salient points and really pounds you into the ground at 3.10 onwards. Happy Conception Day, chump ;) ;) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXSx9iFKHrc&feature=related, I've found you at last, GS. Is it really you? Nothing but slanderous and no attempt at debunking/a refutation. A layman fool. http://www.ariarmstrong.com/2009/07/personhood-returns-for-2010.html, herein lies the crux of the matter. It kills the arguments of pro-lifers. GS, a potential person is not a person so murder doesn't come into play. I agree fully that we should guide the zygote through to natural birth but you don't meet the definition of person, sorry. You are stamping your feet but what you really need to do is to get the law changed so that potential persons are covered. Otherwise, abortion will continue unabated. This is the biological process, through different phases to birth and we need to facilitate this as best we can. Our biggest problem is with definitions. Abortion is not murder but it is unwarranted killing in many cases. We must protect against this so that many potential babies aren't lost. However, rape was never meant to be. Please point me to ANY source which says that woman should be raped. Maybe radical Islam but I'm not sure. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkjqvIzTbCQ, here's evidence of loose definitional use designed to sensationalise as you are doing, GS. Meat is murder. The Smiths were an immense group but animals are not people and thus cannot be murdered. However, many still need protection in my eyes. I am for animal rights but we need to make sure that we meet the definitions.

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,974 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Nov 7, 09, 03:44 / #
cheehaw: both physically and emotionally, by carrying the child to term, and giving it up for adoption.. ectopic pregnancy is life threatening, should the 14 year old girl go thru with abortion or should she accept and listen to princple? Im not disagreeing with you that abortion is definately risky, but as shelley pointed out alot safer now then it was back 50-60 years ago when women went into a trailor in the back of someones house in the country with no clean/steralized equipment .. the only difference from then to today, now pregnancy is accepted, but your still shunned by the church for having a child out of wedlock.. I think if they are going to be so political about it, at least make changes in the church that work with mothers who are single, give them a choice, their voices are heard against abortion, but where is the help for those single mothers who decided to keep their children? I would love to see how this child is treated by her neighbors and local parish. especially being strictly catholic Again, like I said, I believe the spiritual intervention should be there for the support needed to help whether they made a choice to adopt or keep or abort. and I am not saying I am against the church in any way shape or form thats not whats implied, only that this issue does have pros and cons and sometimes either isnt the answer. least not for everyone.

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09	Edited by: cheehaw Nov 7, 09, 09:18 / #
ShelleyS: Id love to know where you get your stats from. personal experience for starters.. from another lifetime, long ago and far away. a windswept youth I am probably quite lucky to have survived. Patrycja19: ectopic pregnancy is life threatening, should the 14 year old girl go thru with abortion or should she accept and listen to princple? Ectopic pregnancy does not result in a child, hello. She should listen to her heart.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Nov 7, 09, 14:14 / #
The doctor is duty bound to hold the 'utmost respect for human life'. It appears self evident that abortion isn't that as human DNA is human life, although it hasn't blossomed into a person from the blueprint just yet. No lawyer could really say that he has met that standard. The only possible reason for many doctors not having had their licences revoked (according to taking the Hippocratic Oath) is that they have given due consideration to the rights of the mother. Sorry, GS, what you wrote on this point was utter chauvinistic garbage. How do her rights "end" when the zygote's begins? Please explain as this is an irrational and downright insulting position to take against a rape victim. GS, let me tell you sth. The United Nations Convention on the Rights of Children (UNCRC) expressly states 'any human being under the age of 18' as a child. Grinning from ear to ear yet? Get this, you decided to stay with the pirates and terrorists by not ratifying it, LOL. Hahahahaha (I meant Somalia, gotta love those Mogadishans). Even Saudi Arabia, those Wahhabists, have signed it along with 192 other nations :) Stop spewing your verbal diarrhoea about rights when you won't even ratify an international treaty out of the interests of comity. America is the most advanced I heard, LOL. You are a joke, fella! Would you accept that DNA isn't the complete blueprint, GS? Look at fingerprints, they are not determined according to DNA at conception. You just hand pick the physical traits which suit your agenda. What about twins, one person or two? You keep avoiding neocortical development as being at 25 weeks. It's a fact. The crux of the matter is that of definitions. There needs to be sth inserted into the law to connect abortion with murder. '1.The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice'. This is the US position. Human, that's a start for you. Abortion is lawful in the States. Some work to do there, buddy :) A critical examination needs to be made of all material factors but the preference, in standard abortion cases, should be that the unborn child should be allowed to come to fruition and also the encouraging of a responsible approach on the part of women to get a pregnancy check if they are in any doubt. The man should pay for this if they had unprotected sex ;) ;) ;) ;) Rape is a different ballgame entirely. OH, http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm, this is relevant to this thread and the one on homosexuality. 'Commenting on the lives of transsexuals, Prof. Harley said: "It's a very tough condition. These people are often on the margins of society, are ostracised, poor, unemployed. It's not something you would want to choose yet still some people think it's a choice when it's more likely transsexuals are born like that." 6' Gays don't want to choose to be that way. My friend was from a conservative background and it took him YEARS to tell his parents. They never twigged. He had no gay influences around him and wasn't exposed to any of the behavioural aspects that many gays are. Anyway, your DNA at conception seems to fall a little short. Most people would automactically assume that fingerprints would be part of that DNA. Just look at forensics, there is an inextricable correlation. Why, then, is it not there at conception?

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09	Edited by: cheehaw Nov 7, 09, 18:11 / #
Seanus: There needs to be sth inserted into the law to connect abortion with murder. '1.The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice' Just from, personal experience, I am not pro-abortion.. but I also admit it's a complicated matter. If you make a law fully against abortion.. it's quite likely women that have miscarriages or lose a child even through natural means, would be accused and pay horrible penalties even in their innocence.. so that's the crux of the matter.. yet still.. 'legalized' or maybe better to say, permitted, abortion still needs regulation.. there have been plenty of cases of women carrying a child almost completely to term.. going in for a very late abortion, the baby gets delivered, a live birth, and then is literally murdered, killed by the doctor or left to die. this truly is a heinous crime in my opinion.. late term abortions. The sanctity of life does need to be considered, and language toward that context should be written within the laws that concern these matters. Or we tempt losing our very own self-respect. Just my op. Some neat photos here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthpicturegalleries/6255474/A-Chi ld-is-Born-Photographs-of-the-foetus-developing-in-the-womb-by-Lennart -Nilsson.html Five weeks. The embryo is approximately 9mm long. A face develops, with openings for the mouth, the nostrils and eyes

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Nov 7, 09, 18:25 / #
cheehaw: personal experience for starters.. These are not stats. Personal experience is just that..."personal experience" Patrycja19: but as shelley pointed out alot safer now then it was back 50-60 years ago when women went into a trailor in the back of someones house in the country with no clean/steralized equipment .. Patty thats a bit of an under statement, we both know that the stats for survival for women in countries where abortion is legal are high to say the least, they say that child birth is actually more dangerous. http://www.womenonweb.org/article-237-en.html http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100013743/is-abortion-killing -70000-women-a-year-yes-no-maybe/ *“Too many women are maimed or killed each year because they lack legal abortion access,” she said.* Harry: Why not trying thinking logically instead of just parotting out what you heard? If you still can not get it, just look at the first three words of the title of this thread. Then I was wrong.

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09	Edited by: cheehaw Nov 7, 09, 18:31 / #
ShelleyS: These are not stats. Personal experience is just that..."personal experience" hello. stats are not completely realistic in this area. My 'personal experience', for example, surely was never given a place in any statistical poll. but I'll tell ya, straight out.. I bled like a b*itch for a couple weeks (maybe just a week I forget) and was almost dead by the time a friend literally carried me on his back to the hospital. and that was after a 'legal' abortion, done in a clinic, about 4-6 weeks conception time at most.

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,974 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Edited by: Patrycja19 Nov 7, 09, 20:30 / #
cheehaw: Ectopic pregnancy does not result in a child, hello. cheehaw: Five weeks. The embryo is approximately 9mm long. A face develops, with openings for the mouth, the nostrils and eyes Patrycja says well since you dont think its a child, why post a picture of a 5 week old embryo that has a face and nostrils and looks just like a child?? it wont survive if it attaches outside the uterus, but its still a child. its just that the pregnancy has to end otherwise the mother will die. [quote=cheehaw]She should listen to her heart. well get two opinions first, i read a article where a woman is sueing because the doctors dx her as ectopic and she ended the pregnancy then they discovered it was a mistake.. so yeah, lots of controversy on this subject... and I have edited the above over and over and it wont fix.. no time left, off to work later folks :)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 7, 09, 20:59 / #
Great advice APU from Patty. This is actually a legal requirement in Scotland. Regardless of the merits of it as seen by others, it has sth to commend it IMHO. This is where Gunslinger needs to listen. I guess he has been slapped a hundred times for insolence. Let the women talk, they are the ones that have to endure these issues.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Nov 8, 09, 03:34 / #
cheehaw About the anti-ageing cream: - the foetus was aborted because of medical necessity - the cream is, as I understand it, not on the market yet - the foetus was donated to the Swiss university - since aborted foetuses usually end up in on the scrap heap, they might as well serve medical purposes - stemcell research is generally a good thing as it can lead to cures yet unknown - you need foetuses to perform stemcell research and since these foetuses lying around anyway, why not put them to some use? - I only agree to the use of (aborted) foetuses for thorough medical research; this excludes anti-ageing creams Seanus is anti-abortion? That's news. And: you don't have to watch an abortion, you know :) Can I have Seanus' opinion on the use of aborted foetuses for medical research (I am not talking about anti-ageing creams)? >^..^< M-G (Gunslinger is amazingly quiet)

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,353 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Nov 23, 09, 20:35 / #
"In April, the annual report of Planned Parenthood Federation of America revealed that the abortion giant had a total income of $1.02 billion—with reported profits of nearly $115 million. Taxpayers kick in more than $336 million worth of government grants and contracts at both the state and federal levels. That’s a third of Planned Parenthood’s budget." That is a very good point. Killing unborn humans is big business. Hey, I thought liberals were opposed to big business? Ah, those government grants are there so liberals are indeed consistent as they adore BigGovernment.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 23, 09, 21:18 / #
That's why I am generally opposed to standard abortions. The Church of England really gets it right IMHO. However, it is up to authorities to stop such profiteering. Why should women suffer from their greed? Unfortunately, we all do. My original position remains, too many get abortions too cheaply. Like an easy answer to a fatal mistake. Still, we have to leave the option open and let doctors exercise their judgement with the utmost caution.

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09	Edited by: cheehaw Nov 8, 09, 00:52 / #
Patrycja19: well get two opinions first, i read a article where a woman is sueing because the doctors dx her as ectopic and she ended the pregnancy then they discovered it was a mistake.. so yeah, lots of controversy on this subject... A doctor's misdiagnosis does not ever make an ectopic pregnancy viable.. a doctors misdiagnosis can only mean it was not an ectopic pregnancy after all.. you seem a bit confused.. the doctor was incompetent according to what you are saying.. not unusual actually. No controversy on the subject, quite a bit of confusion on your part though. Why would I need to get 2 opinions? I am almost 50 years old.. I think I have the issue, knowledge and my opinion of it, pretty well covered by now, thanks. I have been an adult with adult women friends going through all sorts of things for longer than you have been alive. I never said it wasn't a child, you are the one arguing that opinion. Kind of feels like I am discussing adult things with an ill-informed argumentive child though.. . Here's one for you Seanus.. Aborted fetus cells used in beauty creams http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/nov/03/aborted-fetus-cells-us ed-in-anti-aging-products/?feat=article_top10_read There are some pretty serious ethical issues here.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 8, 09, 01:01 / #
That's one point which Gunslinger made well, the ruthless profiteering at the expense of ethics. The Helsinki Declaration would cream them for that (if you forgive the pun). 2 opinions is the law in Scotland but I believe that if a woman can show that she fully understands the repercussions/implications, then her opinion shouldn't count as anything less than theirs. I am generally anti-abortion as it disgusted me watching an abortion. However, I've been in excrutiating pain after an operation above my kneecap and know that it has to be about more than pain. As you said, the ethical ramifications are major right across the board here.

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,974 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Nov 8, 09, 07:21 / #
cheehaw: A doctor's misdiagnosis does not ever make an ectopic pregnancy viable.. a doctors misdiagnosis can only mean it was not an ectopic pregnancy after all.. you seem a bit confused.. the doctor was incompetent according to what you are saying.. not unusual actually. on some points I agree with you, then you turn it around, Im not confused you are why dont you slow down before you fall down.. jesus. I was first talking to gunslinger, then you jumped in, so then I bring forth the subject of the ectopic pregnancy, and just explain that to women in general to get a 2nd opinion ( as I explained I read a article) then you think I am speaking directly at you about that?? LOL cheehaw: No controversy on the subject, quite a bit of confusion on your part though. well i am sorry you cant chew gum and walk at the same time, I cant help you have sometimers disease.. I was trying to be nice, but you have a extreme chip on your shoulder. and there is controversy, we have two men on the board actually more then two and the discussion is still going on both opinions, as it is with the women. I see both points. and theres nothing confusing about agreeing on both points, as I have said, and I made my opinion clear from the get go.. cheehaw: I never said it wasn't a child, you are the one arguing that opinion. cheehaw: Ectopic pregnancy does not result in a child, hello. She should listen to her heart. WHAT??? lol look above at your post , I wasnt arguing with anyone, I am entitled to my opinion as well, which was directed at gunslinger, then you jumped in so I was being nice, now your calling me a child because you cant comprehend what I was saying? I have children, I dont need any lessons from someone who thinks one time abortion makes them the queen of all clinics. your experience is just that. there are others who have had abortions safely and privately. the topic is about a 14 year old girl who was denied abortion, I brought forth examples of other problems that could arise, and you just dont get it.. please do me a favor, either discuss it like a normal person, or dont respond to my post.. you can say whatever you want, call me unintelligent all you want. I have two beautiful girls, caring family, loving hubby, lots of good friends young and old, you are just another bug who flew up my arse momentarily and I shyt you out! Pfttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt. night folks. :) Peace!!

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,974 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Edited by: Patrycja19 Nov 8, 09, 08:38 / #
Patrycja19: I do think that medical intervention/not political intervention should be used more in such cases, and that spiritual intervention should be there to support those who do have faith and want forgiveness when our lives are interuppted with such horrible circumstances. and to not condem those who need them most. adding to this and the above -continuation of my post I have said my opinion, and stand by it!! circumstances can change in someones life. and I think that person should be the decision maker. that rapist didnt give anyone a choice now did he?? we cant as humans go chop off his penis even though thats what we all want to do because he touched a baby, hurt a child who will now have a child, in some circumstances I can see loving families dealing with such situations, but that doesnt happen for everyone. some children are raped by the parents alcoholic friends who come over for that reason alone.. there are such things as child pornagraphy and or selling children for sex, so a 14 year old can get pregnant by some stinky old smelly, dirty rotten foul moouth man and end up trying to kill herself from the torment, or trying to hurt the baby for all the abuse she had to withstand.. I am not against anyone, because I think we should have a choice, but I dont believe in abortion for myself or use as contraceptive. but shyt happens, and as much as we want to prevent it, or do something about it there is no good answer to any of it. you can be totally against it or totally for it.. but thats not the way to be, because if we ask ourselfs those questions of what would I do if it were me faced with certain circumstances, I bet your answers would change to suit you, to do the right things and that might mean having an abortion or not having one.. anyone can say those words to please the ears. sometimes people say things but what they do is whole different story. thats where I stand on the subject. because in life, I know what is the right thing to do for me for my children, but if faced with certain decisions, such as supporting my children if they were to become pregnant ( I would) and let them make their choice which would be to have it.. I would be what they need to get thru. but if we faced imminent abortion,, I would step up same as I am the other way get my family thru it.. because deep down, I really dont give a flying f what anyone thinks if they are totally against,, if you choose to support your friends thats fine but dont expect smiling faces if you become a jerk. try to intervene or stop something that doesnt involve your presense. as for people who are radicals about abortion and go around killing these doctors get some psychiatric help NOW!!!!!

JoshtaylorThreads: 6 Posts: 8 Joined: Jul 15, 09	Nov 8, 09, 11:05 / #
Nothing is clear in Poland

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 8, 09, 20:02 / #
M-G, that's a general position that I take but it's such a complicated issue and I also feel that I don't need to take a stand unless my woman or a woman close to me asks me for my opinion on it. What right do I have otherwise? I have been arguing that rape is a special case and Gunslinger couldn't accept that the Church of England accepted abortion only under 3 exceptions. That was the only thing they wrote in block capitals on the whole page, 'WE ARE MORALLY OPPOSED TO ABORTION AS AN EVIL' but still they saw fit to class abortions for rape victims as defensible. I agree with their position. In standard cases, if you grant sb a right, they often use it. I love babies and was having fun with my wife's bro's (Tomek) baby today. He will be 9 months tomorrow. I asked Tomek when he first thought of Maks as a kid and he said it was hard to say but when they knew they Maks was healthy and on his way, he regarded it as a kid then. Not quite from conception but shortly thereafter. His wife would have found it soul destroying to U-turn when this is what they had been striving towards for a long time. They took a responsible attitude towards it and they see the fruits of their labour. Therefore, I really abhor the notion of killing life on its way to full personhood but reasons for abortion are mixed and varied. To guard against getting them cheaply, I'd make it that they'd have to pay for them as a deterrent and to take extra care. If there was an accident, e.g pierced condom etc etc, then that would be different but proof is a hard thing in such matters. What's a man to do, take the condom to the doctor? Anyone can pierce a condom and claim it was during sex. The practicalities are endless. My opinion on the use of aborted foetuses for medical research? Hmm...that's a tough question, M-G. The test specimen is now dead which greatly changes things. However, what kind of testing do you envisage? The abortion itself was the painful deed so I don't imagine that medical research beyond that is gonna sour the milk anymore. It's all about consent. I can draw an analogy to organ removal after death. I see the logic of donating my organs as I'll be dead and don't need them. Sb else can get the use of them. However, I have told my parents that they don't have my consent to do that as I feel that my organs are part of me and they will be buried with me. Strange? Maybe but you help people in your lifetime through teaching, helping with shopping bags, supporting them through bereavement/grieving, lending them cash in tough times, lifting heavy objects ( I helped out Polish guys without them asking) and with asking them if they need the right change (it can be a pain for them otherwise). I help people in any way I can. If they are good people worthy of help, it's in my nature to help them. Still, my organs are my organs and thus let me tie it back to the thread. It's up to the parents of the aborted child and weighted more in favour of the woman of course, 70-30% at least. Just think of how we treat life that dies. We keep their ashes, visit their graves or make other arrangements. The same is with abortion, it's for the parents to decide. That's about it for now.

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Nov 8, 09, 20:11 / #
Seanus Thank you for this explanation. I have nothing to add to this for now. Another point that I would like to have addressed in this thread is: all the ppl who are so against abortion seem to be mordicus against the use of anti-conception too. In my opinion, one of the very few options one has to push back the number of abortions are those anti-conception. Yet it seems they are against those too. Can anybody explain? >^..^< M-G (what else is there? Go into celibacy? Must be a joke.)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 8, 09, 20:38 / #
For me, it's very much about listening to your partner. She knows much more how contraception pills work on her and has stopped using them as she has deemed prolonged use to be harmful to her. I'm not a big fan of condoms but they don't have any chemical effect on me. Sex is a reality (no, ba) and when you get the ball rolling on that one, your partner will ask questions if the standard regularity stops. She will feel like she has done sth wrong to make you disinterested. However, intentions or behaviour is often misinterpreted and almost everything can be solved by talking. I see your point, M-G. I don't get the position of the RCC on this one. Maybe the resident Poles can help out as my German and Czech contacts don't understand it either. They think it's anachronistic and impractical. Maybe George W Bush has the answer. Watch and see what he says, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEuXc5gGtBg, Bush shedding some light. Probably the most honest answer he has ever come out with.

cheehawThreads: 9 Posts: 831 Joined: Oct 10, 09	Nov 19, 09, 15:55 / #
it all makes the news someplace eventually http://www.lifenews.com/state4585.html Flint, MI (LifeNews.com) -- Alberto Hodari owns six abortion centers in Michigan and LifeNews.com has delivered multiple reports on how he has three of them up for sale. A new lawsuit from a woman who says he forced her to have an abortion could explain why Hodari is quickly moving to divest himself of his abortion business. Hodari, who has killed at least two women in botched abortions, put a for sale sign on his Flint, Michigan center last week and also on his facilities in Livonia and Southgate.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Nov 19, 09, 17:14 / #
That's the downside of the procedure. Things can go wrong but it's better to get it done legally when raped as it's a damn sight worse when done by non-professionals.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Nov 23, 09, 14:30 / #
cheehaw: hello. stats are not completely realistic in this area. My 'personal experience', for example, surely was never given a place in any statistical poll. You say you are not pro-abortion, yet you openly admit you had one? You were unlucky, nothing more, there are millions of women that have abortions, as Ive stated these women are just fine. As for not given a place in stats, you went back to the hospital, they recorded the fact you had an abortion that had caused problems...this would count towards medical stats - how do you think they get these stats in the first place? cheehaw: a 'legal' abortion, done in a clinic, about 4-6 weeks conception time at most. As for your comments about how far gone you were and they performed a surgical termination, I find this hard to believe since up until about 10 years ago, they did not perform surgical terminations until a woman was at least 8 weeks pregnant, so for you to say you were only 4 to 6 weeks, Im a bit sceptical.