14 year old rape victim from Warsaw denied abortion!

lesser:

She doesn't have the right to violate freedom of innocent person. This is simply libertarian way of thinking.

cust1240:

First, the girl was not raped. She got pregnant with a friend from her school.

cust1240:

First, the girl was not raped. She got pregnant with a friend from her school.

ForsakenOne:

VaFunkoolo: don't feed the troll

ShelleyS:

Im sure that the rape lie was done because of the abortion law in Poland so I understand and I can also understand why a mother would be somewhat upset at her child coming home in the family way. What I am struggling to understand is why on earth this outrageous lie hasn't been cleared up in the news.

ForsakenOne:

Any sexual act with a child under 15yr is considered as rape in Poland

VaFunkoolo:

it's considered a "forbidden action", but never "a rape".

mafketis:

If the very existence of the 'innocent person' (known to most people as a non-sentient clump of cells) is the result of violence, it has no inherent right to use the body of an unwilling adult for its sustenance and birth.

TigerLily:

As to coal miners etc. – it is a really bad example. Their special treatment has been a disgrace for Polish justice system for years. “Church people” are indeed not the only one privileged group; it does not make them less privileged.

TigerLily:

Funny - could you show me any Episcopal documents calling for Polish troops leaving Iraq?

TigerLily:

Dalai Lama was refused a meeting with the Pope after the Tibetian massacre. And calling Dalai Lama, when Tibet under occupation of Chinese communistic regime, a ‘theocratic ruler’ is nothing but funny.

TigerLily:

That is your personal opinion and not any objective, scientific truth.

TigerLily:

And that is a popular argument from people opposing legal abortion in Poland: it would supposedly lead to killing babies etc.

Wroclaw:

She was/is under the age of consent. That should make it rape.

lesser:

This a human being and we don't have other choice but respect his freedom. If you don't see a human being then this is your lack of knowledge, deep denial of science. Somehow the left which established different abortion laws in different countries set different times when unborn may be killed. So they cannot agree among themselves. They cannot agree, because they are all wrong. Pure and simple.

lesser:

You are free to kill yourself and abandon RCC and they cannot stop you. So what is the point? I don't understand why are you so concentrated on what they say. You cannot stand that some people find their teaching valuable?

"I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion"

"Family Planning Associations and other non governmental organisations should not use the absence of law or the existence of an unfavourable law as an excuse for inaction; action outside the law, and even in violation of it, is part of the process of stimulating change" [International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF), London 1984; A Strategy for Legal Change. IPPF, London 1981]

"As for the abortion and pregnancy question. I'm myself a mother expecting a birth in 2 months. And when I found out I'm pregnant actually noone here was interested in helping me, except for pro-lifers. On university they only asked - are you really happy about being pregnant? Do you really want to have a baby? You know, kids are expensive and so on, so why make your life difficul? The doctor told me exactly the same. They encouraged me to make all prenatal examinations and make easy abort in case of any doubt. I felt really discouraged to keep the baby."

cust1240:

Forsaken, You must have been already celebrating the well-done job of abortion of this poor girl, but still that's not the case. Her pregnancy is developing properly, and I'm really sorry if that makes you furious.

cust1240:

The doctors there actually do know the Oath and it's obvious you have never actually seen it. Have a look at what the Hipocratic Oath really says and remember this for all your life:

Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret.

the only thing I want is to get the priests and right-wing fanatics

mafketis:

very quick, sloppy translation (link to original below):

14 year old rape victim denied abortion!

A 14 year old rape victim came to a Warsaw hospital to terminate her preganancy.
But her every step was followed by a priest and pro-life activists. They accuse the mother of inciting a minor to have the abortion, prosecutors are examning the evidence. The operation did not take place....

side note: Polish law allows for abortion on demand in cases of rape within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. The current pregnancy is in the 10th or 11th week. The church is transparently trying to throw up legal roadblocks until the pregancy is 'too advanced' to terminate.

ukpolska:

I had a lesson with a group of Matura students and we were discussing illnesses around the world, and the subject focused on Africa and the problem of AIDS there. One student said that maybe if they were allowed to use condoms then this problem would be reduced, another student said that condoms do not stop sexual diseases and was quickly rebuffed and asked them to proof it.
She replied that she had been told that condoms were no use at all by her priest, because sperm and sexual diseases can penetrate through the pours of the condom. Another student said that she had seen a film that was shown to her by her priest that showed sperm and sexual diseases penetrating through the pours of the condom

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 8, 08, 09:41 / #
lesser: She doesn't have the right to violate freedom of innocent person. This is simply libertarian way of thinking. Excatly! Now you get it! I am so proud of you. Charge the priest and all of the "pro-life" activists who were breaking the law by violating freedom of that poor girl.

TigerLilyThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Jun 8, 08	Jun 8, 08, 10:35 / #
Few remarks from me, before i go for Sunday dinner: 1. Indeed, “Not my problem” is an answer of a true Catholic – you could not care less about the woman OR the child after birth. And save your eristic tricks on me, it just does not work. 2. As to coal miners etc. – it is a really bad example. Their special treatment has been a disgrace for Polish justice system for years. “Church people” are indeed not the only one privileged group; it does not make them less privileged. 3. > RCC regularly oppose every each military conflict. Funny - could you show me any Episcopal documents calling for Polish troops leaving Iraq? (Possible in Polish) Because I do not know of any and believe me, I would. And aaah, Bosnia – where the Pope called on raped war victims to give birth, yet the Church was not strong enough there to actually force them. 4. Dalai Lama was refused a meeting with the Pope after the Tibetian massacre. And calling Dalai Lama, when Tibet under occupation of Chinese communistic regime, a ‘theocratic ruler’ is nothing but funny. 5. > This a human being and we don't have other choice but respect his freedom. That is your personal opinion and not any objective, scientific truth. 6. "First they came…". And that is a popular argument from people opposing legal abortion in Poland: it would supposedly lead to killing babies etc. Funny, like we do not observe anything like it in countries which have had legal abortion since decades. On the other hand, we observe constant radicalization of the anti-choice stance: when present abortion law was approved ca. 15 years ago, a right of a raped woman for abortion seemed undisputed, now- we can all see. If nobody reacts, we will wake up in Nicaragua-like reality (where abortion is allowed under no circumstances, even when woman’s life is endangered). 7. > She doesn't have the right to violate freedom of innocent person. Who talks about an innocent person? It’s 10-week old foetus we are talking about. And yes, she has the right to an abortion -according to the Polish Law, which determines her rights in this case and not your or the Church’s beliefs.

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Edited by: cust1240 Jun 10, 08, 06:13 / #
The article from Gazeta is 100% lie. First, the girl was not raped. She got pregnant with a friend from her school. Second, she was not denied abortion. She refused abortion, and was later forced to abort by her mother and pro-choice activists. Third, the pro-life activists did not attack her. They offered numerous forms of help, including financial. Fourth, it was not attack from pro-lifers that stopped the abortion. It was ruling from a local court which quickly figured out that the "rape" version was plain lie. The "rape" version was corrected two days later by Gazeta, but of course it did not get as much coverage. You can find some details here (Polish): maciejgnyszka.blogspot.com/2008/06/9-vi-2008-poniedziaek-w-efrema.html

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 10, 08, 07:48 / #
Yeah. So why does she still wants to do abortion? http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/artykul.asp?artykul=26765

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Jun 10, 08, 08:27 / #
After seeing how the story was manipulated from the very beginning, I don't trust a single word from neither from Gazeta nor Newsweek. BTW read this, by the same author, Luiza Łuniewska: media.wp.pl/kat,38212,wid,8238393,wiadomosc.html?ticaid=160b6

VaFunkooloThreads: 7 Posts: 823 Joined: Mar 24, 08	Jun 10, 08, 08:33 / #
cust1240: First, the girl was not raped. She got pregnant with a friend from her school. Aha. So she is a snotty nosed lying tow-rag who couldn't keep her legs closed.

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 10, 08, 08:48 / #
VaFunkoolo: don't feed the troll.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Jun 10, 08, 08:49 / #
The boy who called wolf springs to mind...how on earth can young girls who have been raped be given any credibility in future. Im sure that the rape lie was done because of the abortion law in Poland so I understand and I can also understand why a mother would be somewhat upset at her child coming home in the family way. What I am struggling to understand is why on earth this outrageous lie hasn't been cleared up in the news.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 10, 08, 08:56 / #
cust1240: First, the girl was not raped. She got pregnant with a friend from her school. She was/is under the age of consent. That should make it rape. As she is under the age of consent then her mother has the right to express her opinion. And that is as polite as I can be.

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Jun 10, 08, 09:28 / #
Law doesn't work automatic - it's not like underage means rape means abort. Having sexual intercourse underage and rape are not the same things. Underage sex may be result of a crime. Whether it was crime or not it's to be decided by a court. In any case it gives her RIGHT to abort but noone can't FORCE her to abort. I would like to recall a very similiar case from Torino, Italy from 2003. A 13-old girl got pregnant and wanted to KEEP the baby. Her mother got to a court to get something incredible - order for a FORCED abortion. After the girl got forcibly aborted, she tried to commit a suicide. She was rescued and then only place for her was asylum. Nice example of woman rights enforcement, isn't it? Planned Parenthood must have been very happy with that. So what parents think doesn't give them full right to decide for their daughter. I would like to see you guys when the mother actually tried to convince the girl AGAINST abortion. You would be screaming as hell and calling her fascist. "Im sure that the rape lie was done because of the abortion law in Poland" Yeah, excellent idea to put a 14-year old boy to prison as a rapist.

RubasznyRumcajsThreads: 9 Posts: 283 Joined: Mar 29, 08	Jun 11, 08, 01:40 / #
http://www.newsweek.pl/artykuly/artykul.asp?Artykul=26765 Terroryzowana przez działaczy antyaborcyjnych 14-latka trafiła do szpitala z krwotokiem - dowiedział się "Newsweek". Ale i tu wciąż jest przez nich nachodzona i nękana. terrorised by anti-abortion campaigners 14years old girl was taken to the hospital with haemorrhage - 'Newsweek' found out. But even there she is still being intrude and harassed. great. those f*****g 'pro-life' KATholics will never give up. btw, i found this: http://docs.google.com/View?docid=ddr33mkm_0fk4wcvgw their are pathetic. and stupid. Einstein was right :<

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 11, 08, 07:22 / #
I'm making it my business Greg. I've got every bit as much right to voice an opinion as the church does. Lesser, ignorance is bliss in ur eyes but this girl needs justice. I agree with ur PVS analysis. They should be able to decide. Yes, because I say so and it's a fact. When does a child form its ID and character (or is it formed), in a womb? Come off it!! Quality of life, in the sense of sb who knows they are never going to recover after a serious accident. I'm not talking about ur standard of living, I'm talking about ur standard of LIFE. Please see the difference.

VaFunkooloThreads: 7 Posts: 823 Joined: Mar 24, 08	Jun 10, 08, 09:47 / #
ForsakenOne: VaFunkoolo: don't feed the troll It is not a clear cut case as has just been brought to light. I haven't seen anything that convinces me cust1240 is a troll.

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 10, 08, 10:12 / #
ShelleyS: Im sure that the rape lie was done because of the abortion law in Poland so I understand and I can also understand why a mother would be somewhat upset at her child coming home in the family way. What I am struggling to understand is why on earth this outrageous lie hasn't been cleared up in the news. Any sexual act with a child under 15yr is considered as rape in Poland. "Agata" said, that she was indeed raped. Prosecutors already decided, that she can go and do abortion. Let's focus on other aspects now. On the ultra right-wing "Fronda" forums someone posted "Agata's" real name along with cellphone number. "Newsweek" quotes her saying that she is getting rude SMS and she is visited by a catholic priest all the time. I hope that prosecutors will charge that person who posted her details. Let's make one thing clear, as cust1240 is saying that Agata is "forced to abort". I don't believe any of the right-wing/catholic sources like "Ozon" or "Fronda" so my knowledge is based on INTERVIEW with Agata herself. She says, that she wants to abort. Let's see: she is separated from her mother, she is FORCED to not abort by priests and right-wing fanatics and still she says, that she wants to abort. Who forces her to abort? Invisible gnomes, jews or masonic order?

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Jun 10, 08, 10:36 / #
ForsakenOne: Any sexual act with a child under 15yr is considered as rape in Poland I wasnt sure of the age of consent for some reason I thought it was 13 (my bad!)

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Jun 10, 08, 10:50 / #
To summarize what has been said against the abortion: June 10 - Kurier Lubelski: "...it came out that the girl wanted to keep the baby. She asked her friends for help in numerous SMS's saying that she wants to give a birth... Her mother thinks it will waste her life". June 9 - Dziennik: "In school the girl told one of teachers she wants to keep the baby" June 9 - Gazeta Wyborcza: "Policeman - the girl's teacher told me she wants to have a birth" June 8 - Maciej Gnyszka: "there was no rape" (and actually you can find it hidden in GW article) June 7 - Gazeta Wyborcza publishes the first hard-core "rape" article June 6 - Maciej Gnyszka: "she does want to keep the baby" June 5 - Maciej Gnyszka first writes about the girl on his blog and notes that "the rape story is invented to legalize abortion" I don't feel like discarding all these quotes just because today Newsweek wrote they spoke with the girl and "she wants abort". You have no guarantee that it's indeed what the girl said. It's not authorised interview. It's very common among journalists to change sense of someone's words completely, like if you say "I think I want to abort or maybe not" and the journaliast discards everything starting from "or"? "Any sexual act with a child under 15yr is considered as rape in Poland" It's not considered as rape. It's just plainly not true. Any sexual act under 15 is considered crime if commited by an adult. If commited by another underage, it's considered a "forbidden action", but never "a rape".

VaFunkooloThreads: 7 Posts: 823 Joined: Mar 24, 08	Jun 10, 08, 10:56 / #
very interesting point

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Edited by: Wroclaw Jun 10, 08, 11:11 / #
VaFunkoolo: it's considered a "forbidden action", but never "a rape". Does Polish law allow a child involved in a 'forbidden action' the right to a legal termination ?

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 10, 08, 11:15 / #
mafketis: If the very existence of the 'innocent person' (known to most people as a non-sentient clump of cells) is the result of violence, it has no inherent right to use the body of an unwilling adult for its sustenance and birth. We wont agree because you simply don't recognize the fact that we are discussing about fate of human being. Future debate would be pointless if we continue. TigerLily: As to coal miners etc. – it is a really bad example. Their special treatment has been a disgrace for Polish justice system for years. “Church people” are indeed not the only one privileged group; it does not make them less privileged. Almost every strike in this country means occupation of some office or public place. May are ask you whether nurses are disgrace as well? TigerLily: Funny - could you show me any Episcopal documents calling for Polish troops leaving Iraq? Let me remind you that Pope is the leader of the RCC and his position regarding each every military conflict is know before such conflict appears. How did you vote last time? Probably on those who supported this war, so blame yourself and people that you elected. It seems that some people replaced "blame the Jew" to "blame the church" scenario. This is the same mentality and similar "arguments". TigerLily: Dalai Lama was refused a meeting with the Pope after the Tibetian massacre. And calling Dalai Lama, when Tibet under occupation of Chinese communistic regime, a ‘theocratic ruler’ is nothing but funny. I'm calling him like he is, this is not any offensive call. Obviously you think that under Buddhist theocratic regime life was much easier, this is only your lack of knowledge... BVI already met him and I don't see any reason why Dalai Lama should be allowed to audience every time he wish. TigerLily: That is your personal opinion and not any objective, scientific truth. Perhaps, however this opinion is rooted in European civilization. TigerLily: And that is a popular argument from people opposing legal abortion in Poland: it would supposedly lead to killing babies etc. Actually this is also possible. Let make it clear, so called 'human right record' of the left and careful observations of political trends lead me to the concussion that sooner or later evolution of their fanaticism will cause us a lot of problems. As far as killing babes is concentrated, I already heard some deviants from the US and the UK (if I recall correctly) advocating such ideas. They say that babies have not formed identify, I have read this pseudo-argument somewhere here. Wroclaw: She was/is under the age of consent. That should make it rape. Rape is just question of will. Of course law in different countries may state different but politicians love to redefine words.

andalaThreads: - Posts: 26 Joined: Mar 13, 06	Edited by: andala Jun 11, 08, 06:02 / #
lesser: This a human being and we don't have other choice but respect his freedom. If you don't see a human being then this is your lack of knowledge, deep denial of science. Somehow the left which established different abortion laws in different countries set different times when unborn may be killed. So they cannot agree among themselves. They cannot agree, because they are all wrong. Pure and simple. Not really, like I wrote earlier, if it is a human being then why is it refused the right to a funeral? It's just a bunch of cells that may develop to form a human being. lesser: You are free to kill yourself and abandon RCC and they cannot stop you. So what is the point? I don't understand why are you so concentrated on what they say. You cannot stand that some people find their teaching valuable? Actually they can. I didn't mean suicide but euthanasia. Please, read before answering. An individual unable to commit a suicide although able to make an informed decision is not given the right to do it. So, should I understand you are against abortion but in favour of euthanasia? If so, then you're certainly not following what you consider CC values. What I can't stand is not people following CC, it is people who want everybody to follow CC. I have no idea where the truth is about that 14-year-old, yet, she should have the right to have an abortion (as should all other women). People who are against abortion basing on religious preferences should have nothing to say about that. I say everyone should follow what they believe in - you're Catholic don't have an abortion, but don't tell me I can't have it.

ShelleySThreads: 18 Posts: 3,647 Joined: Jun 26, 07	Jun 11, 08, 07:07 / #
If it is the case that this young girl got pregnant to a 'friend' then why on earth didn't her parents take her over the boarder and pay privately to have it done rather than saying she was raped, what happens if some poor girl in her town gets raped - are the Police and press going to take her serious, or will she just be labelled another whor*. It's quite clear that there is a problem and Poland needs to realise that their younger society are more sexually aware at a much younger age...how they tackle this will make a huge impact on generations growing up. You dont honestly think teenage pregnancies have always been the norm in the UK do you?

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 11, 08, 07:25 / #
At the moment "Agata" signed agreement to perform abortion. Prosecutors allowed her to do so. Hospital doctors, "pro-life" activists and that priest should be charged with harrasment, and the doctor with breaking the Hippocratic Oath. So the case should be closed now. "Pro-life" activists can scream as loud as they want, but everything is up to that girl now. Of course they will still try to stop her, but I hope that they'll be charged for that.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 11, 08, 07:30 / #
Here here

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Edited by: cust1240 Jun 11, 08, 10:39 / #
Forsaken, You must have been already celebrating the well-done job of abortion of this poor girl, but still that's not the case. Her pregnancy is developing properly, and I'm really sorry if that makes you furious. wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/Wiadomosci/1,80269,5302271,Dyrekcja_szpitala__Abo rcji_nie_bedzie__14_latka_zmienia.html The doctors there actually do know the Oath and it's obvious you have never actually seen it. Have a look at what the Hipocratic Oath really says and remember this for all your life: "I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked, nor suggest any such counsel; and in like manner I will not give to a woman a pessary to produce abortion" brownback.senate.gov/Oath.htm ShalleyS, there are several hundred legal abortions performed in Poland each year done for medical reasons or in cases of rape. There are no pro-life protests in front of hospitals or interest from media. So it's not that the law is not working in Poland. What was really special about this particular case is that the girl wanted to keep the baby, and she was under incredible pressure from her mother, aborters from so called Planned Parenthood and pro-abortion media, who invented the "rape" version to legalize the abortion. If the girl was convinced to abort, she would have done it long time ago, even with a day-after pill. The Planned Parenthood strategy of inventing any legal or non-legal ways to abort was described long time ago. In the paragraph below you will find open invitation to break law if it puts smallest limit on the abortion: "Family Planning Associations and other non governmental organisations should not use the absence of law or the existence of an unfavourable law as an excuse for inaction; action outside the law, and even in violation of it, is part of the process of stimulating change" [International Planned Parenthood Federation (IPPF), London 1984; A Strategy for Legal Change. IPPF, London 1981] To give you idea about how the strategy works in real life, I will quote a comment left by a Polish girl living in UK at Maciej Gnyszka's blog: "As for the abortion and pregnancy question. I'm myself a mother expecting a birth in 2 months. And when I found out I'm pregnant actually noone here was interested in helping me, except for pro-lifers. On university they only asked - are you really happy about being pregnant? Do you really want to have a baby? You know, kids are expensive and so on, so why make your life difficul? The doctor told me exactly the same. They encouraged me to make all prenatal examinations and make easy abort in case of any doubt. I felt really discouraged to keep the baby."

ForsakenOneThreads: - Posts: 48 Joined: Dec 6, 07	Jun 11, 08, 12:51 / #
cust1240: Forsaken, You must have been already celebrating the well-done job of abortion of this poor girl, but still that's not the case. Her pregnancy is developing properly, and I'm really sorry if that makes you furious. See? You treat it like a personal battle for "unborn childs life" while the only thing I want is to get the priests and right-wing fanatics like "Fronda" readers away from that girl. Everything is up to her right now and HER decision will be good. cust1240: The doctors there actually do know the Oath and it's obvious you have never actually seen it. Have a look at what the Hipocratic Oath really says and remember this for all your life: I don't know if that is your stupidity or not, but I will point out which Hipocratic Oath fragment was broken: Whatever, in connection with my professional practice or not, in connection with it, I see or hear, in the life of men, which ought not to be spoken of abroad, I will not divulge, as reckoning that all such should be kept secret. Ps. As you are "pro-life" activist who only registered here to post your opinions on that girls life I would like to ask you a question. Why catholic priests don't bless miscarried children and they don't allow their funeral and why does catholic church law states, that a child under the age of 7 has no "thinking"?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 11, 08, 14:47 / #
Catholic church law states that a child under the age of 7 has no thinking and Scots Law states (stated?) that the age of criminal responsibility is 8. How can that be? Seriously, u can't reconcile the 2 positions.

cust1240Threads: - Posts: 6 Joined: Jun 10, 08	Jun 12, 08, 03:08 / #
Many laws state that you can't vote under 18 and can't be elected under 21. Damn discrimination... As for your problem with with church law please ask a priest, not me. As for the disclosing girl's data, you don't know who did it. Let's wait for court's ruling. the only thing I want is to get the priests and right-wing fanatics You seemingly don't have any problem with Planned Parenthood fanatics who will break any law just to make sure the girl gets aborted.

TigerLilyThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Jun 8, 08	Edited by: TigerLily Jun 12, 08, 14:04 / #
Agata in both of her interviews made clear that she was raped and that she wanted an abortion. All other statements come from third persons (the anti-abortion doctor, teacher, ardent pro-lifer Gnyszka whose connection to the girl is none). She gave written statement to that effect. But the hospital is breaking the law (again) and neither performing the procedure nor indicating another hospital where it will be carried out. Personally I am quite certain they will simply keep her in the hospital till the 12th week and Agata will no longer be entitled to a legal procedure. An interesting thing: spokesman for the Ombudsman said that the girls’ statements (she signed on Tuesday and another one last week) have no legal effect, as under the pressure of the pro-life doctor she had signed another one and, besides, “she may always change her mind”. One wonders if the latter means that no signed document, except for the will of the deceased, has legal value? As to the availability of legal abortion in Poland: the ca. 200 hundred cases prove the contrary and women have often problems with gaining abortion even if they are entitled to it. I’ve read that the last legal abortion in Lublin, the girls’ voivodship, was performed in 2004 (!). Are there no rapes, incest, minor sex or health problems in that part of Poland? I beg to doubt. As to some data: according to official sources, in 2003 there were in Poland 3 legal abortions resulting from rape, incest or sex with minor, in 2002- 2, in 2001-5, in 2002-2 and in 1999-one. Total: 13. EACH year there were ca. 2.300 noted rapes (only; incest etc are different category). One can oneself answer to what degree legal abortion is available to raped Polish women. In fact, the only thing which does make me wonder is why this case is so well known –usually just nobody cares. Ah, one last thing regarding disclosing the girl's real identity: representative of the catholic forum Fronda (the ones which organised the protest) admitted on Newsweek's forum having posted it; there one can also find a link to a screenshot where Fronder's discuss the need to remove it from their forum: good-times.webshots.com/album/563746239ZniAHy Her real name and surname appeared also on another catholic website, http://www.szansaspotkania.net

RockyMasonThreads: 23 Posts: 303 Joined: Nov 20, 07	Jun 17, 08, 14:22 / #
mafketis: very quick, sloppy translation (link to original below): 14 year old rape victim denied abortion! A 14 year old rape victim came to a Warsaw hospital to terminate her preganancy. But her every step was followed by a priest and pro-life activists. They accuse the mother of inciting a minor to have the abortion, prosecutors are examning the evidence. The operation did not take place.... side note: Polish law allows for abortion on demand in cases of rape within the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. The current pregnancy is in the 10th or 11th week. The church is transparently trying to throw up legal roadblocks until the pregancy is 'too advanced' to terminate. Look wat happens when u have an extremist religious government! LOL

RockyMasonThreads: 23 Posts: 303 Joined: Nov 20, 07	Jun 21, 08, 17:46 / #
ukpolska: I had a lesson with a group of Matura students and we were discussing illnesses around the world, and the subject focused on Africa and the problem of AIDS there. One student said that maybe if they were allowed to use condoms then this problem would be reduced, another student said that condoms do not stop sexual diseases and was quickly rebuffed and asked them to proof it. She replied that she had been told that condoms were no use at all by her priest, because sperm and sexual diseases can penetrate through the pours of the condom. Another student said that she had seen a film that was shown to her by her priest that showed sperm and sexual diseases penetrating through the pours of the condom WOW NOW THIS IS A PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SICK CORRUPTION IN THE CHURCH! I THINK THIS PRIEST SHOULD BE PUT IN JAIL FOR CHILD ENDANGERMENT IF THIS IS TRUE! Telling students that condoms don't work is basically telling them that they don't have to use one of they have sex or at the very least making it less likely they will use one and increasing the likelihood of unwanted babies and disease! condoms are VERY VERY EFFECTIVE against HIV and reduce ur risk for infection tremendously! sick ass priest!